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RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 11:48:41 AM   
pinkee


Posts: 487
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

I wanted to ask for everyone's opinion... Do you think it is ethical to post email addresses, pictures, instant messenger ID's, and/or private correspondence to a popular vanilla website where "anyone" could run across it?
 
I realize that even here "anyone" could run across it, but they'd have to have a reason for coming here first (curiosity, kinky needs of their own, checking up on a spouse if there's already suspicion)... On a vanilla website a person could easily find these posts, maybe recognize a picture, and then boom, that person is outed.
 
Please explain why you answer the way that you do...


Calandra, i admit it, i could not face 10 pages of responses, so if this is redundant to what A/another P/poster has said, please forgive me.
 
1.  IMO, anything said in a private setting (a PM, an email, an IM, on the phone, in real lfe) is to remain completely private. 
 
i remember one occasion where a M/member repeated the substance of an email here on the boards -- some very sensitive information -- and while the M/member's did not give the sender's nick, S/some readers did/would/might have guessed correctly (or incorrectly) about whom the M/member was speaking. 
 
As it happened, on this particular occassion, i could have released information about that M/member which was equally sensitive in retaliation, but IMO it is wrong to violate S/someon'e confidence, period, no matter what the reason.

i found this to be a huge breach of trust and invasion of the unnamed emailer's privacy.
 
2.  When a M/member of a BDSM site is not "out" (by which i take it to mean all the M/member's family members, friends, acquaintences, employers, and dry cleaner know about the M/member's interest in BDSM) that is by choice and generally for responsible reasons. 
 
Some M/members., e.g., have little ones who might be hurt if their P/parent's interest in BDSM was known, either to them, or to a wider circle of people.  For that reason, "outting" a M/member against T/their will is a huge ethical violation and may be a source of civil liability for invasion of privacy.
 
3.  There is no justification for taking material from this site, with or without a P/poster's or M/member's nick, and posting it anywhere else, let alone a vanilla site. 
 
Imagine the shock to vanilla people, who may never have heard of BDSM, and may find the material offensive.
 
4.  It is a violation of the CM Terms of Service, which all CM members agreed to when they made T/their profiles. In fact it is a theft of copywritten material.
 
3.4  Except for public domain material and electronic messages, all materials on this site are protected by Federal copyright and are protected under treaty provisions and worldwide copyright laws. Materials contained in any part of the site may not be reproduced, copied, edited, published, transmitted, or uploaded in any way without the written permission of the sites owner.  Except as expressly stated in this TOS agreement, no grant of any express or implied right to you under any trademarks, copyrights or other proprietary information are given.
 
6. Distribution of information, such as a private email addy, is a means by which a M/member could be located in real life, by S/someone with basic computer software/'net knowledge.  This could place a M/member in harm's way and cannot IMO be justified in any way. 
 
If harm did in fact result, the release of such information could result in criminal liabity for the O/one who did the release.  i know for a fact that abusive men (and i suppose women) are on this site; i imagine so are rapists, murderers, pedophiles, and a whole kit and kabbodle of other fruits and nuts.  They are everywhere on the 'net, and some are activately looking for victims.
 
i could go on and on and on, but i think i've made my point.  If something like this has actually happened, i'd contact Support immediately.
 
pinkee

< Message edited by pinkee -- 6/3/2006 12:06:10 PM >

(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 11:48:57 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelface183

I agree, Marie that maybe the approach should not be eye for an eye, but what do you suggest?  She has made a journal entry mentioning that someone was displeased with her blog and she does not care.  What she is doing is childish and offensive and in my opinion, a gross overreaction. 

Calandra made a list of those that were mentioned and contacted them, was that acceptable?   Is there anything that can or should be done?


I guess I am more making a general statement about a principle.   What made me draw the parallel  was when Calandra actually did the exact same thing to this girl--Posted her business and what she was doing in a public forum-. I dont agree with what the girl is doing frankly.  I dont know her, I dont know her name, her experiences, her side,  her 'reasons' (whether valid or not), right or wrong.  Nor am I trying to flame Calandra, whose beliefs may be just as strong about what she is doing, (as the girl may be about what she is doing).  I am attempting to go a step beyond that and speak of the sheer principle of it.  I am really only re-asking Calandras original question with an added addendum. 
 
***Is it ethical to post personal IMs, correspondence, and photos in order to expose someone that *we* ( any random individual) *believe* is doing something dishonorable? ***  
 
 I know that I am being repetative at this point.  But, in each persons view, it can only be ethical or *not* ethical.  I think every single person on the post said it was unethical to do so....Until Calandra did the exact same thing. (PS. Calandra, Im not ripping on you or judging your personal decision. I am only making a point here)
 
Suddenly after Calandra exposed someone for doing something that she feels is wrong, people begun *supporting* public exposure.  Therefore, it would seem hypocritical, in my view,  to say its ok in some cases but not in others.  The problem comes in when we think about what is right/wrong, moral/immoral...these things are all subject to individual interpretation.  You will never find 100% agreeing that polyamory is moral/immoral, that cheating on a spouse is good/bad etc.  In other words, to this girl....married men who email her should be exposed.  To Calandra people who expose married men in vanilla communites should be exposed.   What I am seeing here is a double standard---two sets of rules---ie....For the girl is was wrong because of  a, b, and c.  For Calandra it was right because of x, y and z. 
 
Its either wrong or its not. 
 
As far as you asking what should/could be done?  I think nothing.  It will blow over, the girl will most likely get tired of maintaining a site and being consumed with those she finds immoral/distasteful.  She most likely will not be shunned in any community,bdsm, or otherwise,  nor will those men be hung at high noon any time in the near future.  I think its a non-issue frankly.  Anyone can gossip and post shit---I certainly would not like to be the subject of it---but its being magnified into a more serious issue than it is. Ive had people I trusted share entire personal letters and photographs of me with other people.   Did it piss me off?   Hell yes.  Did it change my life?  No. While I do not agree with what this girl did, if those men are doing nothing that THEY feel is immoral, then they should have not a care in the world about it.  In fact, this whole thread is probably feeding her fire.  After she's done getting attention over it , she will most likely tire of the time and effort of keeping the website going.
 
In closing, I want to reiterate to Calandra...I do not take offense, critisize, condemn  or otherwise judge your decision for doing what you did.  Its not my place  to decide what is right for you, OR for the girl involved.    

(in reply to angelface183)
Profile   Post #: 202
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 11:51:01 AM   
Sunshine119


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Then, as I said elsewhere in this jumbled mess of a thread, you probably should either find a new job, or live a lifestyle your board would approve of.  Bleak and sad, but realistic.  Or maybe there is a third option where you work to change the minds of the people on the board so they could accept your lifestyle choices...I'm not sure how realistic that is, however.

Taggard




I should be very, very glad then that I don't have to change the minds of everyone on this board as they ALL don't share your opinion of privacy.  If I were to hazzard a quess, I would estimate that about 50% don't disclose their identities due to possible reprecussions.  (Maybe we should run a poll?)

I'm happy that your solution works for you though.......good luck with that!


_____________________________


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 11:57:53 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

*Fast Reply*

No clue who this person is with the blog.  Curious, as I would prefer not to communicate with such a person...

My take is this - it is unethical, tacky, classless and wreaks of bitterness, to use someone's private information in the way it has been discussed on this thread.

To do the same in retaliation would be held to the same criticism, in my opinion.

However, to let unsuspecting people know they are being "outed" is perfectly acceptable.  I know I would want to know if i were on someone's site unknowingly.

We have seen numerous threads here about people (like me) who do not wish to post their own photos and personal names for the reason of privacy.  This situation here is presicely why many wait until getting to know someone better before sending such information.  It is a shame people resort to such poor taste.



Amen to that. After what I've been through on the internet, I am very descriminating about who gets my photos and I am also more careful about what I say in emails.  Id rather take it to the phone sooner to get to know a person before pouring out my most personal details in a paper trail to someone who could end up sharing it with others.  Ive learned that the hard way. And I bet there isnt a person here who hasnt been victim to something similiar at some point or another. 

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:02:24 PM   
Calandra


Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
Status: offline 		I don't take offense at anything you have posted... I respect your opinion and also share it with one exception... on a BDSM website, we expect to see fellow kinksters... within the BDSM community, we expect to see fellow kinksters... therefore posting to a few groups that may or may not know this person personally would not "out" her about her lifestyle choices.
 
My original post and every one since draws a distinct difference between posting to a vanilla place where outing is possible, and a lifestyle group where any kinksters in her area can come to CM and see her by doing a simple search for their area, therefore no outing.
 
At the Sanc in Atlanta, one evening vice came and tried to bust the place simply on tips from someone who wrote down license plate numbers in the parking lot. The threat of this person continuing in REAL LIFE what she has already done extensively here and at least one other lifestyle site, is very real.
 
I believe that because she drew "first blood", she deserves any consequences she may receive. Maybe we simply agree to disagree since it is not in my nature to out anyone without extremely compelling reasons.

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:13:08 PM   
pinkee


Posts: 487
Status: offline
quote:

Suddenly after Calandra exposed someone for doing something that she feels is wrong, people begun *supporting* public exposure.  Therefore, it would seem hypocritical, in my view,  to say its ok in some cases but not in others.  The problem comes in when we think about what is right/wrong, moral/immoral...these things are all subject to individual interpretation.  You will never find 100% agreeing that polyamory is moral/immoral, that cheating on a spouse is good/bad etc.  In other words, to this girl....married men who email her should be exposed.  To Calandra people who expose married men in vanilla communites should be exposed.   What I am seeing here is a double standard---two sets of rules---ie....For the girl is was wrong because of  a, b, and c.  For Calandra it was right because of x, y and z. 
 
marieToo



Please review my earlier post.  i don't know whether the information you posted about Calandra is true, and i don't know how you came into possession of it if it is true. The obvious delight you took in posing Calandra as a hypocrite does not, IMO, justify what you have done.
 
pinkee

(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:13:52 PM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		From the collarme TOS:

3.4  Except for public domain material and electronic messages, all materials on this site are protected by Federal copyright and are protected under treaty provisions and worldwide copyright laws. Materials contained in any part of the site may not be reproduced, copied, edited, published, transmitted, or uploaded in any way without the written permission of the sites owner.  Except as expressly stated in this TOS agreement, no grant of any express or implied right to you under any trademarks, copyrights or other proprietary information are given.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:15:15 PM   
Calandra


Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
Status: offline 		I have a really really sincere but stupid question.... how can someone who's bisexual be almost mental about polyamory? how does one experience both genders sexually if they're not at least open to poly?
 
reason I ask is cause the young lady in question claims she's bi... ~confused~

(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:17:23 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

I don't take offense at anything you have posted... I respect your opinion and also share it with one exception... on a BDSM website, we expect to see fellow kinksters... within the BDSM community, we expect to see fellow kinksters... therefore posting to a few groups that may or may not know this person personally would not "out" her about her lifestyle choices.
 
My original post and every one since draws a distinct difference between posting to a vanilla place where outing is possible, and a lifestyle group where any kinksters in her area can come to CM and see her by doing a simple search for their area, therefore no outing.
 
At the Sanc in Atlanta, one evening vice came and tried to bust the place simply on tips from someone who wrote down license plate numbers in the parking lot. The threat of this person continuing in REAL LIFE what she has already done extensively here and at least one other lifestyle site, is very real.
 
I believe that because she drew "first blood", she deserves any consequences she may receive. Maybe we simply agree to disagree since it is not in my nature to out anyone without extremely compelling reasons.


Thank you Calandra.  I respect your point of view as well, about the distinction being one of 'outing' someone.  In a really broad sense, however I still see it as exposure of one thing or another.  I do understand your strong feelings on what she is doing.

On a side note.....And Im not sure if this should be put on a new thread (if so, please tell me).....I would be interested if you or anyone else would like to share any knowledge about anyone ever getting into legal trouble over this.  As you said the police showed up, but did they do anything?  Showing up is one thing---they got a lead and followed it up and it turned out to be nothing.  No harm no foul.  Has anyone every really gotten nailed for the practice of bdsm in and of itself?  I know certain things are illegal, such as employing a person in the name of slavery and having them work without  a paycheck.  But other than that....has anyone ever been arrested or prosecuted for bdsm itself? 

(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:19:13 PM   
angelface183


Posts: 688
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		Callie (may I call you Callie),

she is the one who is confused.  Let's just drop it and let it be.  Let let the mods take care of it and just ignore her.

_____________________________

"...... all that, a bag of chips AND a pickle!!!"

(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:20:35 PM   
champagnewishes


Posts: 1310
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Orange County
Status: offline 		staying out of it...my only contention is that something said in a personal email is being made public without the writers knowledge and in a slanderous manner without the opportunity for rebuttle.

< Message edited by champagnewishes -- 6/3/2006 12:27:22 PM >

_____________________________

Nirvana cannot be described, it is only understood truly by a person who has experienced it.


(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:22:19 PM   
pinkee


Posts: 487
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: champagnewishes

I ran across the BOG yesterday for the first time after it had been mentioned in another post.  I posted that i thought this was an ineffective measure to what she claims to be accomplishing but stemmed more as a personal vendetta.  At that time, i had not even thought about the other ramifications her actions have.  Now my blood is boiling!!! 


What is a BOG?
 
thank you,
 
pinkee

(in reply to champagnewishes)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:23:27 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

~handing bignipples a map~
 
Pssssst, remember we've established earlier in the thread that one inch equals 100 miles....



Sweet!  My cock is 1200 miles long!

Yours,


benji


ROFLMAO that is wrong on entirely too many levels.

(in reply to gooddogbenji)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:25:33 PM   
Calandra


Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee

quote:

Suddenly after Calandra exposed someone for doing something that she feels is wrong, people begun *supporting* public exposure.  Therefore, it would seem hypocritical, in my view,  to say its ok in some cases but not in others.  The problem comes in when we think about what is right/wrong, moral/immoral...these things are all subject to individual interpretation.  You will never find 100% agreeing that polyamory is moral/immoral, that cheating on a spouse is good/bad etc.  In other words, to this girl....married men who email her should be exposed.  To Calandra people who expose married men in vanilla communites should be exposed.   What I am seeing here is a double standard---two sets of rules---ie....For the girl is was wrong because of  a, b, and c.  For Calandra it was right because of x, y and z. 
 
marieToo



Please review my earlier post.  i don't know whether the information you posted about Calandra is true, and i don't know how you came into possession of it if it is true. The obvious delight you took in posing Calandra as a hypocrite does not, IMO, justify what you have done.
 
pinkee


pinkee, marie is posing some well considered positions about the situation... and I am not offended by her points. I think that even on the rare occasions that we go against our own ethics because we feel it is the right thing to do, we should at least be willing to ask the hard questions. marie is asking questions that I might ask if the shoe were on the other foot...
 
To marie: I have one for you... we all agree that privacy is important, what about this example... you see someone that you know to be a sex offender hanging around a playground full of children... now this person is not doing anything to endanger the children, but you know the threat is there because of actions he has taken in the past... do you go to the parents sitting close by, or even the police and report what you know? I'd hope to hear you say yes, because sometimes one person's need/want of privacy infringes upon another person's right to be informed of potential danger.
 
That's where I stand on this... I agree with you for the most part, but I am very comitted to helping our community police itself in order to avoid legal, medical, and other forms of damage BEFORE it becomes a statistic.  

(in reply to pinkee)
Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:26:15 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

From the collarme TOS:

3.4  Except for public domain material and electronic messages, all materials on this site are protected by Federal copyright and are protected under treaty provisions and worldwide copyright laws. Materials contained in any part of the site may not be reproduced, copied, edited, published, transmitted, or uploaded in any way without the written permission of the sites owner.  Except as expressly stated in this TOS agreement, no grant of any express or implied right to you under any trademarks, copyrights or other proprietary information are given.


Excellent, Feastie.  So all those folks whose pictures and personal email addresses were posted on the blog (I just perused it - despicable) can take action, and see where that goes.

The problem with outing the outer is that, in reading through the blog, I couldn't help but think, with such a blog being passed around, now even more people are privvy to all that personal information. 

The thing is, in reading the person's forum posts, she advertised the site herself.  So, no one here really outed her - she drew her own attention.

Feastie you may recall I was in a similar situation where entire IM conversations were posted to a website for the world to read.  That stuff always blows over, over time, but it reminds me of the "electronic rule" - anything you send to someone over the internet can very likely end up being viewed by unintended parties.  I try to never say anything I can't stand behind.

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:27:26 PM   
sharemyself


Posts: 3
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

What is a BOG?

 
I think she meant BOS.  That is the way that the blogger refers to her blog on collarme.  It stands for "blog-of-shame" and it certainly is.  She is the one shaming herself with this blog.

(in reply to pinkee)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:27:40 PM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

I have a really really sincere but stupid question.... how can someone who's bisexual be almost mental about polyamory? how does one experience both genders sexually if they're not at least open to poly?
 
reason I ask is cause the young lady in question claims she's bi... ~confused~
Simple, she's a hypocrite.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:28:34 PM   
nomeci


Posts: 18
Joined: 11/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra
~sticking my beautifully sandalled feet out into the middle of the room to show off my new toenail polish...~


oh god - dont get her started talking about toes!  lol

(in reply to Calandra)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:28:49 PM   
champagnewishes


Posts: 1310
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Orange County
Status: offline 		sorry...meant BOS

_____________________________

Nirvana cannot be described, it is only understood truly by a person who has experienced it.


(in reply to pinkee)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Outing Collarme members on vanilla websites...? - 6/3/2006 12:28:50 PM   
Calandra


Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee
What is a BOG?
 
thank you,
 
pinkee


she meant blog... a web based journal or diary... where others can read your innermost thoughts if you allow them to.

(in reply to pinkee)
Profile   Post #: 220
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