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How Do You View The Bible? - 3/7/2012 10:49:29 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Earlier tonight, I was looking at an Amazon thread for a book related to homosexuality. Naturally a poster had quoted Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Being gay, I sighed a bit and wondered how to respond. Explain how the ancient sense of homosexuality as a willful, defiant act was different from our modern understanding of an innate orientation? Point out that the Levitical holiness code includes any number of other abominations now largely ignored (shrimp, anyone)?

Then arose a reply that's lurked in the shadows of my brain, but which I'd never quite put to words before. Yes, I said, Leviticus says that. But so what? Why in 2012 should we be bound by--and impose on others--the prejudices of a patriarchal, pre-scientific tribe wandering in the desert several thousand years ago? I hit submit, and it felt incredibly freeing, as if I'd finally come out to myself, after a lifetime of churchgoing, about my uncertainty about how to regard the Bible.

I've definitely never been a literalist. My Catholic school training emphasized that the Bible had to be seen in its cultural context, and the Episcopal Church (where I've spent much of my adult life) sees Scripture as one pillar of understanding, the others being tradition and reason. The Unitarians, with whom I've worshipped the past few years, see the Bible as a source of wisdom, but not necessarily any more inspired than the Tao Te Ching or Mary Oliver.

So I'm curious: How do other folks see the Bible? Is it a cultural artifact, a moral guide, a source of inspiration? Does it deserve more regard than, say, the Koran? Should it inform our public policy and, if so, how?

Thoughts?

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/7/2012 11:08:19 PM >

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/7/2012 10:57:07 PM   
erieangel


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Status: offline 		Oh I love your response!!

My son says it is biologically impossible for a man to lie with mankind as with womankind.

You both have valid points.


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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/7/2012 10:59:32 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
How do other folks see the Bible? Is it a cultural artifact, a moral guide, a source of inspiration? Does it deserve more regard than, say, the Koran? Should it inform our public policy and, if so, how?

It is a source of information - which may be erroneous, but for those who are able to perceive the error that error is information of a kind as well.

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/7/2012 11:19:35 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
a poster had quoted Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Being gay, I sighed a bit and wondered how to respond. Explain how the ancient sense of homosexuality as a willful, defiant act was different from our modern understanding of an innate orientation?

Indeed, my hypothesis is that there are two very different kinds of homosexuality, the Old Testament one of lust driven animals (prevalent in other cultures as well, such as those of the ancient Greeks before the Old Testament pagan god was murdered, and in contemporary warrior cultures in New Guinea), and the modern love driven one of human beings.

For non-circumcising, Christian populations the Old Testament is merely a curiosity without religious value.

Animals require guidelines. People make up their own minds.

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/7/2012 11:58:33 PM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		It has moral,but moral changes with evolution of society. It has history but most written history is biased. It is cultural and that is even more progressive then moral.
Let me point out one factor. I always ask myself the question to whom something is most beneficial. Cause we are all driven to gain.
IMO it was always most beneficial to the king or leader to say god wants this war. If men wouldnt believe in an afterlife they are less willing to fight to death.
With homosexuality there is the same survival tech. We need more men to go to war so gay people will not help our future engagements cause they dont procreate. See catholocism preachin have as many children as you can. Wich is actually promoting sex, those dirty bastards.
What I found interesting from a greek POV was that some considered the love between men higher then love between woman and man, because of the nature of competition between men. That doesnt seem a lust driven emotion to me. Sounds kinda pure actually. Like first you have to love yourself before you can love someone else.

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 12:58:16 AM   
GrandPoobah


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Status: offline 		The Bible serves two purposes. In every "primitive" society, there is an attempt to explain things that were otherwise impossible to understand. Every society has a story about how the Earth began and how humankind got started. Since there were no humans around at that time, they are, for the most part, just myths, designed to provide a "comfortable answer" to a question that was beyond understanding at the time. In Alaska, the Raven was involved, and other cultures other animals or Gods or Goddesses were involved. The Greeks had that whole thing with Zeus, that sought to explain where fire came from and a bunch of other things. So, the early pages of the Bible are probably no more likely to be accurate than any other "mythology."

The Bible also serves another purpose, again very common in all early cultures. It established a set of rules for society, and attempts to relate them to "history." The earliest history is probably questionable, although, as Indiana Jones once observed, mythology is often based upon at least one or more facets of real events. Many societies knew of the "great flood" and had stories about how it happened and how some survived. Taken in toto, it's likely there was such a flood. It's also likely that somebody built a boat of some sort (ark) and probably had some animals on board. The rest just doesn't quite work out. Such is mythology. Some of the history expressed is reasonably accurate, given the knowledge of the time. Moses did lead his folks to a new place. I'm not sure exactly who they think promised it to them, but it probably made convincing doubters along the way a bit easier to believe that. The Ten Commandments are actually rather typical of many early legal systems, part religion (which dominated life at the time) and part civil administration. Setting aside the obvious differences, it's not much different than the concepts behind Sharia law...a loose codification of principles enshrined in religious dogma.

In short, the Bible is a book. It's a pretty good book, considering the times. It's not, however, the only book, and we need only look at how the "books of the bible" came to be selected to know that a whole lot of men had a lot of arguments about what to include. A lot of books were "left out" for various reasons, so dissenting viewpoints didn't necessarily make the cut. That likely means we didn't get a very balanced look at the materials available.

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 1:09:48 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		It is good that you have a point of view!

You wear your medal proudly!

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 1:30:12 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrandPoobah

A lot of books were "left out" for various reasons...

Not so various. Most people think that Christian Theology is based on the New Testament. It isn't. The theology came first -- courtesy of Paul, not Christ -- and then the canon was chosen (and in some places massaged) to support it.

K.

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 2:22:37 AM   
Kainundeva


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Status: offline 		Taboos and customs change regional and with time

Abraham's nephew Lot committed incest with his own daughters. bible says this is ok.
that obviously changed with time. ( well, apart from some places where the villagers all look alike... )

it also connects to the ancient greek. the phoenicians were semits, as the jewish, and they influenced each other very much. the phoenicians and greek did not really like each others, so the phoenicians condemned about everything the greek did... as the greek literature is full of passages about how evil the phoenicians are.

now you can imagine where that old taboo comes from.

plus that there are so many taboos in the old testament that nobody cares about anymore ( except orthodox jews, and they can´t really do anything without breaking some taboo ), being gay is just another one that could be easily dismissed.

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 2:28:44 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Status: offline 		In my mind, it would be far too easy and false an argument to say: "Leviticus was old testament. There's a new testament..."

Unfortunately, I have to give the long answer so, please, bear with me?

I was in social studies class, one day and we were beginning the section of the text book that spoke about religion. I remember my teacher being very careful to start the day and the unit off with: "all religions except Judaism, Christianity, and Buddhism (I always spell that one wrong for some reason) were 'invented' by man to explain the unexplainable". My first thought was: "Why do those three get a pass?" I think we all know. When I was a young man, in my area, at least. Buddhism had more followers that Islam.

Anyway, I always had this feeling, obviously, that all religions are in the same boat. Now, I was raised traditional Catholic. Latin Mass ... faith of our fathers ... no meat on Friday, yada, yada, yada. However, there are some great fallacies that people believe about what Catholicism teaches. We were taught that there's too much evidence to suggest that evolution didn't happen. That's right. In a traditional Catholic church. It's really not as tough to work out as some think. of course evolution happened. God wanted it to happen.

So, that's one part of what I think about the Bible. here's the other part:

It's a nice story. It's a really nice story but, if you interpret it literally, you're in a lot of trouble, in a lot of places. In one of my favorite TV shows (The West Wing), in the second season, there's an episode called "The Midterms". Toward the end, Martin Sheen (plays the president) gives a wonderful monologue about the dangers of literal interpretation. Suffice it to say; I have always known that literal interpretation was dangerous.

Whether I believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the result of the Holy Ghost (in the form of the paraclete) impregnating Mary or whether I believe she was the victim of rape by a Roman soldier or whether I believe she and Joseph were lovers before they should have been makes no difference to what I'm about to type: If the words in red font in the Bible; those generally taught as being the words of Jesus really are the words of Jesus then, he was probably one of the most spiritual beings to ever walk the earth. Hands down.

I believe that if you use those words in red to steer your life, you will always be on firm spiritual ground. It's the only reason I identify as a "Christian". Jesus is generally called "Christ". I follow what I believe to be the teachings of Jesus. Ah, but there's a wrinkle ...

About two years ago, a friend of mine wanted to recommend a movie to me but was afraid. He was nervous about the fact that I believe in God and identify as "Gnostic Christian ". He did not wish to offend.

I told him that there's a fairly widely held belief that for the 18 year void in the Jesus story, Jesus was away, in the East, learning many things; amongst them, he studied with the Buddha (Here we go, again with the spelling). I believe that very thing.

It turns out that the movie he wanted to recommend put forth that very idea. The name of the movie (for those that care) is: "The Man from Earth". I strongly recommend that anyone that isn't a dyed-in-the-wool Atheist or a God-hater should absolutely watch that movie.

So, to quit my rambling. I believe that none of the Bible should be interpreted literally but, that I have found that if I live my life by the words in red (as closely as possible), things go pretty well for me and I feel pretty good.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/8/2012 2:29:33 AM >

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 2:40:14 AM   
GrandPoobah


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Status: offline 		Michael, I largely agree. Despite the legitimate questions about the Bible's authenticity, it's full of great ideas. I was raised Methodist, within a family deeply involved in the church. Today I still believe many of the precepts of Jesus, even though I haven't actually been inside a church for years...unless you count the churches I always manage to visit while playing tourist in Germany. Having a background in pipe organ design and performance tends to do that.

In my opinion, every "religion" has something to offer, not necessarily as a set of rules but at least as some really good ideas about how mankind could get along a lot better. I doubt much of the Bible was meant to be taken literally, despite some of the stuff we hear.

Thanks for contributing to the conversations hereabouts.

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 3:50:22 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		What's weird (to me, anyway) is that I don't need to go to a specific building to practice my religion. I believe we practice our faith in the things we do, every day.

However, occasionally, I feel a burning desire to be around all the imagery and pomp. It's a very strange thing. What is really funny, though is it's not any specific denomination or any specific building belonging to that denomination (However, there is a gorgeous church in Newark I like to try to get to, once per year or so. It's a true cathedral).

In the last two years, I think I've hit just about every known Christian denomination and even found myself wandering into a reformed temple (and being very confused and having to walk out). It could be growing up in Brooklyn (the borough of churches) or it could be that I'm a religious scatter-brain.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 4:58:16 AM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		I'm going to skip reading some of the replies until I've given My own opinion.

The problem with the thought pattern that some would like to apply because of the Leviticus line is that we also have the rest of the book to consider.  I can't speak for anybody else, but there are some good things in there, too.  I'm actually rather happy with the idea that we shouldn't run around killing each other or that honesty might just be the better policy.

If one believes that the bible is the word from God, they do have to also remember that men were the translators.  God is perfect, but men are not.  Should I happen to have as much knowledge of the universe as God, the actual instruction of what those men should write may not be as clear to them because of the vast difference in beings.  When's the last time you attempted to transcribe something to an ant? 

In addition to the limited understanding of men, we're talking about people who used to stone adulterers.  I'm thinking they might not have had the best grip on sexuality.  A pregnancy out of wedlock could be a shame that would follow a person for all of their days, which might be numbered.  Two thousand years from now, just imagine how people in that time will think we are silly, ignorant, barbaric, and a few of our other wonderful traits.

It's always been My thought that these are some of the reasons why much of the bible is filled with parables.  There was no other way for people to grasp the concepts that were trying to be conveyed.  You have to try to see it in the best way that you can in order to learn what was attempting to be taught.  Yes, it's a guide.  If it had a mission statement, it would probably come a lot closer to "try to be a good person" than one line taken out of Leviticus.


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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 5:00:00 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

However, occasionally, I feel a burning desire to be around all the imagery and pomp... there is a gorgeous church in Newark I like to try to get to, once per year or so. It's a true cathedral).

Next time you're in Manhattan, if you can spare the time, check out St. Monica's. It's on the north side of 79th just east of First Avenue. I think you'll find it worth the trip uptown.

K.

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 5:04:32 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
My son says it is biologically impossible for a man to lie with mankind as with womankind.

Either you or your son will have to explain that one to Me.  Anal sex works with either gender.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 5:07:47 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
My son says it is biologically impossible for a man to lie with mankind as with womankind.

Either you or your son will have to explain that one to Me. Anal sex works with either gender.

You can lie with womankind as with mankind, but not with mankind as with womankind.

Does that help?

K.

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 5:12:55 AM   
Moonhead


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My own feeling has always been that if you're claiming to be a Christian, then the whole of the old Testament (and a fair chunk of the new outside of the gospels) is irrelevant. Christ's message (which flatly contradicts huge chunks of the OT) is all that a Christian should be paying attention to, and if you pick and chose bits out of Leviticus to try to get a different message out of the Bible to Christ's, then you're not a Christian and have no business calling yourself one.

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RE: How Do You View The Bible? - 3/8/2012 5:13:43 AM   
OttersSwim


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Status: offline 		The bible is a tool for social control of most humans by a smaller number of humans.

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 3/8/2012 5:15:00 AM >

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 5:13:51 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Next time you're in Manhattan, if you can spare the time, check out St. Monica's. It's on the north side of 79th just east of First Avenue. I think you'll find it worth the trip uptown.

K.


I think I've seen that place, actually but never been inside it.

I'll see your St. Monica's and offer up: Cathedral Basilica of the Sacred Heart



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: The Authority of the Bible? - 3/8/2012 5:14:56 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
You can lie with womankind as with mankind, but not with mankind as with womankind.

Does that help?

K.

I'm a perv, Dear.  I'll bet I've got something in the toybag that makes it possible. 


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Kirata)
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