RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians

RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/24/2012 10:15:34 AM)
quote: Ah yes, free speech. There was a time when speech meant, well, you know, speech, words and images and cartoons and such, not overt physical actions. If the American Civil Liberties-We-Like Union defended the Second Amendment the way they've gone about making a mockery of the First, every American citizen would be entitled to own a 105mm Howitzer and a suitcase nuke. Fwiw, two of the five majority votes in Texas v. Johnson were cast by Scalia and Kennedy. Neither strikes me as an ACLU-type lefty. ETA: Also fwiw, I personally detest flag burning.

subrob1967 -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/24/2012 11:38:06 AM)
Let's go over your posts shall we? quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle I haven't convicted anyone. That's the courts job. I just like my Justice to be Swift. Why make crazy people crazier waiting around for their executions? Better it's done quickly so there's a little suffering as possible. quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle I think we can have our own trial and execution just fine. Court martial can be done before lunch, two appeals at an hour each, and the President can sign the death warrant by fax. His unit could assemble and hang him tonight. Easy Peasy.... quote: I am not sympathetic to the excuses of a child murderer. He can explain it to whatever gods he believe in. Maybe they'll care. Consider this. If he ever regained his sanity, wouldn't he be compelled to commit suicide due to the overwhelming grief caused by his realization of what he's done? When you have a mad dog, you put it down. More importantly, if you don't enforce discipline and actually execute a few people to make the point that you WILL execute people when necessary, how to you teach the dual lessons of 1) They will follow through and 2) Their honor demands it? quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle If you don't execute this guy, how can you claim to be any better than 'those animals? In fact, in their Justice system, he'd be executed already, and they're all laughing at you for not having the balls to even put this animal to death with the open and shut case there is. quote: I don't see how you CAN'T execute this piece of shit. But we're going to give him is trial in the morning, two appeals at an hour each, maximum and wait an hour for the President himself to sign the death warrant. All nice and legal. quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle I feel as if this guy was failed by: His NCOs, his officers, and the entire chain of command. If only they had taught him the lesson that it's wrong to go out and murder XXXXXXXX and that if you do choose to do that, you're going to hang -- and hang quickly -- as a lesson to everyone else, that you don't go murdering XXXXXXXXX. quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When is the hanging? There's been plenty of time for a court martial, appeals, and the president's signature on the death warrant. It's not like there's a whole lot of ambiguity here. The guy TURNED HIMSELF IN. quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: his mental state should be taken into account Whatever for? If he's sane, then he's a murderer in the worst way, and we're all better off once he's dead. If he's insane, there's two options: 1) He can't be rehabilitated. He's a mad dog. Put him down, and we don't have to worry about him attacking a nurse. 2) He can be rehabilitated. If you woke up one day, and realized you murdered all these innocents, wouldn't you be compelled to commit suicide over your grief? If you don't have that grief, you're INSANE, ( see (1) He can't be rehabilitated ), but if you're actually sane and KNOW that you're a sick murderer who is unfit to live, suicide is the only course for a "Sane" person in that situation. We'd be doing him a favor by never letting him regain his sanity and executing him before there's a chance. quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle I'm not sure what your problem is? The guy murdered a bunch of innocents in their bed. He admitted that, and there's all the DEAD PEOPLE to support his claim. quote: Court martial can be done before lunch, two appeals at an hour each, and the President can sign the death warrant by fax. His unit could assemble and hang him tonight. quote: ORIGINAL farglebargle I figure forensics on the weapon and shit are pretty much a formality. What with the whole "turning yourself in" thing. So, let's just move forward from that. Which of the 3 options do you disagree with? 1: Sane - And we need to put him down because if we don't then we green-light everyone else thinking along the same lines. 2a: Insane - Can't be fixed. Why take the risk of him killing again. He can't be fixed. 2b: Insane - Can be fixed. In what world wouldn't he experience overwhelming suicidal grief over his sins? If he doesn't FEEL that grief, is he 'fixed', or really just 2a? I don't see a scenario -- GIVEN THAT HE'S A HORRIFIC MURDERER -- where we do any favors to him or ourselves by delaying his hanging. And isn't it cruel to prolong his death in this situation? quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Yeah, but we're talking about our GOVERNMENT here, and not another person. "Swift Justice" is the best justice. "Anger" and "Punishment" aren't the point. "Justice" and "Teaching A Lesson" are the points. And there's no reason to delay either. quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Boo Fucking Hoo. Maybe if he didn't kill all them innocent people, I'd give a shit. He can cry to Jesus. Maybe he cares... Oh, wait... Unpardonable sin... Burn in hell scumbag, burn in hell.... The sooner he's not poisoning the same air our families breath, the better off we all will be. Nah, I guess you haven't already tried and convicted him to death...[/sarcasm][8\|]

farglebargle -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/24/2012 11:43:57 AM)
quote: Nah, I guess you haven't already tried and convicted him to death...[/sarcasm] Is there a problem with making a moral judgement based on all the facts available considering I AM NOT PART OF THE DUE LEGAL PROCESS WHICH GUARANTEES THIS SUSPECT HIS RIGHTS? Because, you seem to be implying that MY OPINION is some sort of OFFICIAL ACT. And if it is, I really should be getting paid more.

DarqueMirror -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/24/2012 10:35:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Your posts show exactly why this bullshit will continue. Have you actually got any Muslim friends and listened to their views on terrorism ? I have. No my posts have nothing to do with this bullshit continuing. They've been like that over there for decades if not centuries. They will not change.

DarqueMirror -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/24/2012 10:36:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel Oh come on!! The right wing goes ballistic every time an American protester burns a flag, even though burning the flag is a protected form of free speech. "Going ballistic" and committing wanton murder as a protest are worlds apart. Do you honestly need me to point this out?

tweakabelle -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/24/2012 11:00:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel Oh come on!! The right wing goes ballistic every time an American protester burns a flag, even though burning the flag is a protected form of free speech. "Going ballistic" and committing wanton murder as a protest are worlds apart. Do you honestly need me to point this out? If you're going to insist on others being accurate, then the place to start is with your own posts. Your entire argument is built on a lazy conflation of all Afghanis as "they". Your version of "they" includes Muslims Christians Buddhists and the irreligious, the educated and the illiterate, the taliban, Afghani civilians, people upset at the desecration of a book they revere, women and children, city dwellers rural peasants and so on. While a small minority of Afghanis have demonstrated violently over the US military's desecration of the Koran, it , is grossly misleading to generalise that number into all Afghanis as in "they kill over books". Your argument holds all Afghanis equally culpable over the actions of a few. Your claim that "they kill over books" is simply not accurate. It is shoddy and simplistic, and requires a generalisation so broad it renders "they" meaningless to make any sense. Of course, you are not going to be accurate in your own posts, because your argument falls apart if you are forced to be more accurate in your wanton racist dismissal of Afghanis as uncivilised people unworthy of the assistance of the kind hearted Uncle Sam. If you are going to jump on your soapbox and harangue us over some people murdering others for what you consider to be trivial reasons, perhaps you can explain why Sgt Bales' rampage escapes your critique. Compared with the barbarity of his crimes, whatever reasons he might offer up for his actions will surely seem trivial.

DarqueMirror -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/24/2012 11:07:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle If you're going to insist on others being accurate, then the place to start is with your own posts. Your entire argument is built on a lazy conflation of all Afghanis as "they". Your version of "they" includes Muslims, the taliban, Afghani civilians, people upset at the desecration of a book they revere, women and children, city dwellers rural peasants and so on. While a small minority of Afghanis have demonstrated violently over the US military's desecration of the Koran, it , is grossly misleading to generalise that number into all Afghanis as in "they kill over books". Your argument holds all Afghanis equally culpable over the actions of a few. Your claim that "they kill over books" is simply not accurate. It is shoddy and simplistic, and requires a generalisation so broad it renders "they" meaningless to make any sense. Of course, you are not going to be accurate in your own posts, because your argument falls apart if you are forced to be more accurate in your wanton racist dismissal of Afghanis as uncivilised people unworthy of the assistance of the kind hearted Uncle Sam. If you are going to jump on your soapbox and harangue us over some people murdering others for what you consider to be trivial reasons, perhaps you can explain why Sgt Bales' rampage escapes your critique. Compared with the enormity of his crimes, whatever reasons he might offer up for his actions will surely be trivial. Your attempt at semantics and being facetious doesn't change what's been going on in that region for decades and longer. We have mayors, governors and senators. They have "warlords." We "go ballistic" over a flag, they murder over a book.

tweakabelle -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/24/2012 11:21:45 PM)
quote: " We"go ballistic" over a flag, they murder over a book Until you advise us who the "they" is, your argument is meaningless. If you are unable to advise who the "they" is, then your argument is meaningless. While you are at it, you might also advise us who the "we" you are claiming to speak on behalf of is too. And please advise of the mandate these people gave you to speak on their behalf. I note a complete absence of a response to this question: If you are going to jump on your soapbox and harangue us over some people murdering others for what you consider to be trivial reasons, perhaps you can explain why Sgt Bales' rampage escapes your critique. Compared with the enormity of his crimes, whatever reasons he might offer up for his actions will surely be trivial. Could you please try to answer it next time

DarqueMirror -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/24/2012 11:38:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Until you advise us who the "they" is, your argument is meaningless. If you are unable to advise who the "they" is, then your argument is meaningless. They. The residents of that craptacular country and/or region. Take your pick. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle If you are going to jump on your soapbox and harangue us over some people murdering others for what you consider to be trivial reasons, perhaps you can explain why Sgt Bales' rampage escapes your critique. Compared with the enormity of his crimes, whatever reasons he might offer up for his actions will surely be trivial. Could you please try to answer it next time Since it's not obvious to you, (though it should be) I will. It's because he was injured, mentally and physically serving his country and thrown back to the wolves. What he did appears, so far, to be the actions of someone who clearly was messed up enough mentally to warrant "not" being cleared for duty. Put simply, in deference to you: nutty people kill for nutty reasons. However, killing as a form of protests happens a bit too often over there to simply be labeled nutty.

tweakabelle -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/24/2012 11:54:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror . quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Until you advise us who the "they" is, your argument is meaningless. If you are unable to advise who the "they" is, then your argument is meaningless. They. The residents of that craptacular country and/or region. Take your pick. Are you are claiming that all the residents of Afghanistan kill people over books? I would have thought no one is stupid enough to make such an obviously false idiotic claim quote: quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle If you are going to jump on your soapbox and harangue us over some people murdering others for what you consider to be trivial reasons, perhaps you can explain why Sgt Bales' rampage escapes your critique. Compared with the enormity of his crimes, whatever reasons he might offer up for his actions will surely be trivial. Could you please try to answer it next time Since it's not obvious to you, (though it should be) I will. It's because he was injured, mentally and physically serving his country and thrown back to the wolves. What he did appears, so far, to be the actions of someone who clearly was messed up enough mentally to warrant "not" being cleared for duty. Put simply, in deference to you: nutty people kill for nutty reasons. However, killing as a form of protests happens a bit too often over there to simply be labeled nutty. Please explain how unleashing "messed up", "injured, mentally and physically" people armed to the teeth in a foreign country with an alien culture populated by people who don't want such people in their midst doesn't qualify as "nutty" in your book. That strikes me as "nutty"in the extreme.

DarqueMirror -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/25/2012 1:34:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Are you are claiming that all the residents of Afghanistan kill people over books? I would have thought no one is stupid enough to make such an obviously false idiotic claim So the people who killed those 6 Americans....weren't residents? What'd they do, fly in special just for the protest? [8\|] And you say my claim is idiotic.

Politesub53 -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/25/2012 10:16:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Are you are claiming that all the residents of Afghanistan kill people over books? I would have thought no one is stupid enough to make such an obviously false idiotic claim So the people who killed those 6 Americans....weren't residents? What'd they do, fly in special just for the protest? [8\|] And you say my claim is idiotic. That wasnt the question though, was it. And yes, while there are people like yourself who continue to lump all Muslims in one group, this b/s will indeed continue.

DarqueMirror -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/25/2012 10:22:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 And yes, while there are people like yourself who continue to lump all Muslims in one group, this b/s will indeed continue. Bullshit. What happens in that region has nothing to do with who lumps whom into what group. You think a suicide bomber cares how I classify him? You think Israel or Palestine cares what I think? You think Iran or Syria cares if I know the differences between Sunni and Shiite? No. They have hated each other and fought with ech other longer than America has even been a country. That will never change, no matter what "people like myself" think.

Politesub53 -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/26/2012 3:22:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Bullshit. What happens in that region has nothing to do with who lumps whom into what group. You think a suicide bomber cares how I classify him? You think Israel or Palestine cares what I think? You think Iran or Syria cares if I know the differences between Sunni and Shiite? No. They have hated each other and fought with ech other longer than America has even been a country. That will never change, no matter what "people like myself" think. The thread isnt about your view of Muslims though is it. Its about the continued killings of innocents, which in turn leads to the killing of allied troops. You have now managed to lump people from completely different regions into one group........ Muslim terrorists. They will in turn lump all of you into Sgt Bale, or the troops that urinated on corpses. The cycle needs to be broken and negative views of an entire religion wont help do that.

tweakabelle -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/26/2012 8:04:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 And yes, while there are people like yourself who continue to lump all Muslims in one group, this b/s will indeed continue. Bullshit. What happens in that region has nothing to do with who lumps whom into what group. You think a suicide bomber cares how I classify him? You think Israel or Palestine cares what I think? You think Iran or Syria cares if I know the differences between Sunni and Shiite? No. They have hated each other and fought with ech other longer than America has even been a country. That will never change, no matter what "people like myself" think. If your last claim(in bold) has any validity, then sending Western military forces over there was, is and always will be a complete waste of time, people and resources - the presence of foreign (christian) forces can only make the situation worse. And if you really believed your claim, you wouldn't be excusing Bales' atrocity, but instead demanding the immediate withdrawal of all Western forces from the entire region. But it's so much easier to dehumanise "them" all, lump "them" all together and blame "them" for the atrocities committed by "our" troops. That way, "we" can get away with a tribal reaction and not have to think about it in any depth at all. And gas prices will stay low, which is of course, the most important aspect of the entire situation ........

ShibsStories -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/26/2012 10:21:18 AM)
Is anyone else interested to find out HOW a soldier was able to "wander" off of a fortified military base not once but TWICE? And after coming and killing a bunch of people with a very not quiet weapon, he manages to go back to base, rearm up... and come back to the same area without everyone already being in a uproar?! A few of my paintball buddies have served over in Afghanistan, and they find the scenario being presented by the military improbable and very lacking. I really don't want this taken care of quickly, because I want HOW this happened investigated very thoroughly- and I sincerely doubt that if Bales committed the murder, that there was no one else involved.

Moonhead -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/26/2012 10:29:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShibsStories Is anyone else interested to find out HOW a soldier was able to "wander" off of a fortified military base not once but TWICE? Very, but I suspect that's something the court martial won't be touching with a bargepole. They'll be out to exonerate this shit rather than taking the people who should have been keeping him in check to task, after all.

DarqueMirror -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/26/2012 9:30:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 The thread isnt about your view of Muslims though is it. The thread? Nope. But the posts that replied to my reply certainly have been. You know, it's funny. I haven't gone on and on here berating others for their stance in this matter. Yet you seem to like to do that to me. Guess I'm only entitled to an opinion when it agrees with yours. So sad.

LadyPact -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/26/2012 10:10:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShibsStories Is anyone else interested to find out HOW a soldier was able to "wander" off of a fortified military base not once but TWICE? And after coming and killing a bunch of people with a very not quiet weapon, he manages to go back to base, rearm up... and come back to the same area without everyone already being in a uproar?! A few of my paintball buddies have served over in Afghanistan, and they find the scenario being presented by the military improbable and very lacking. I really don't want this taken care of quickly, because I want HOW this happened investigated very thoroughly- and I sincerely doubt that if Bales committed the murder, that there was no one else involved. If you would like, I'd be more than happy to put clip in touch with you so that you can understand how this happens.

Aswad -> RE: U.S. Serviceman shoots Afghan civilians (3/27/2012 3:48:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact What happens when he really is one of our own? Depends on circumstances. Some of my social circle includes people in the service. If I felt I needed to impress on them my preference for their survival over that of their enemy, I would have done so, as you did. I would, of course, not associate if I thought it were necessary to impress upon them that their service should only be offered if they firmly believe themselves to be both able and willing to place their codes above their survival. That belief, and the reality when tested, is the main source of my respect for these individuals. If any of them were accused of a war crime, I would support them on their return until such time as it was determined whether they were in fact doing what they set out to do: carry out the martial will of the people they represent, in line with the applicable codes, to the best of their ability. And if I was certain that the determination was incorrect, I would make my own assessment on that point. If I found, either by my own assessment or by deciding that an official inquiry was credible, that they had indeed carried out something that conflicts with their codes, or something that qualifies as a war crime in my book, I would dissociate from that individual on account of disgust and lost respect. Our history would warrant not going beyond mere dissociation. Otherwise, I would maintain my support for them. Pretty simple, really: I want my family, friends and associates to live, and live well. I hold them to a certain standard, not directly tied to my own values, but more tied to how they uphold their own values. So far, none of the current and former service(wo)men in my social circles have failed to meet that standard, although several have been traumatized, or acquired a set of habits that are problematic in civilian life. This includes people responsible for accidental or wrongful, but never negligent or intentional, loss of non-combattant lives. They have my support. If one of them went on a killing spree during an episode of acute psychosis, I would forgive. If one of them did so intentionally, or knowingly let the situation arise, I could not. Which is what is to be determined, n'est-ce pas? Health, al-Aswad.

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