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RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 3/27/2012 4:02:53 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

Killing isn't murder in a time of war.


Killing is murder whenever it is wrongful. In times of war, one set of rules and laws apply to distinguish this. In peace, a different set of rules and laws apply. The notion that killing in a war is somehow exempt from a distinction between acceptable vs unacceptable, is the origin of many atrocities, and it is unfortunately a common misconception.

Codes and discipline are the distinguishing element between a soldier and an armed thug. No industrialized nation is well served by having armed thugs running around pretending to be soldiers, let alone using resources to organize them into an armed mob, when those resources could be used to build an army of soldiers instead. Part of the code is related to adhering to rules of engagement, rules of war, etc. These distinguish between killing and murder.

In short, as I see it, a soldier cannot stand by the statement you made.

Health,
al-Aswad.


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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 3/27/2012 4:25:12 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

If you would like, I'd be more than happy to put clip in touch with you so that you can understand how this happens. 


I think it would be more germaine to hear his views on why this appears to be a problem primarily with the U.S. military presence there. Other militaries in the region have been responsible for poor conduct as well, but I've seen little to suggest the scale or degree are comparable.

Of course, unrelated to the thread, as I take a personal interest in my own country's presence there, it would be interesting to hear if he happens to share something regarding experiences with them. First and foremost, though, I obviously hope he comes back alive and uninjured, as I imagine we all do.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 3/27/2012 7:34:30 AM   
LadyPact


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Aswad,

As always, you are a joy to talk to, even on horrendous subjects such as this.

For the question that you asked regarding why this seems to happen with the soldiers from our country and not yours, My own best guess has to do with rotation and frequency of tours. There are certain 'jobs' and 'ranks' that are positions that are not as easy to fill, so those particular people just keep going over and over. 

In My opinion, our military was not prepared for this.  Especially not for the fallout.  We know so much more now about the effects of war on men and women, that frankly, we should be able to do a better job.  Unfortunately, the need is great and the resources few.  It's this whole cycle that just keeps building and growing.  The longer it goes, the more fall through the cracks.

Your view is very similar to My own.  I can't imagine being associated with someone who would do these things of his own accord.  That's very much why I instructed him the way that I did.


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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 3/27/2012 8:56:39 AM   
LPslittleclip


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i dont know any facts just what is reported in the media and i dont trust much of anything they report as they want sensationilism not truth.
in many areas of afganistain the towns are thriving and bases have been reduced and the locals have more schools and support systems now than ever in history. so from my personal viewpoint it(the conflict) has been worthwhile to the region to provide stability to those people.
as for the burning of the korans they had been defaced by the prisoners and were being used to pass information. as per isamic requirements they were destroyed.
as far as why the smaller militarys in the country are not much in the news the us is the biggest so the best target.
in the case of the shooting yes soldiers can go under the gun or to saw the area covered by the placed wepons of the base like i did and visit with the counterparts and locals.
what has been reported can not be easily confirmed so i will leave that for the experts. but allowing soldiers who are in country alcohol is a bad idea and is against the standing order 1a.
i am glad he has made it back home alive and if there is medical problems including mental i hope that he gets the treatment needed, currently ther are more than 20,000 soldiers that are due to injurys unfit to serve when they get discharged the va has such a backlog they may not be seen for several months just for the intake screening.


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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 3/27/2012 9:19:35 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
The thread isnt about your view of Muslims though is it.


The thread? Nope. But the posts that replied to my reply certainly have been. You know, it's funny. I haven't gone on and on here berating others for their stance in this matter. Yet you seem to like to do that to me. Guess I'm only entitled to an opinion when it agrees with yours. So sad.



Its a public forum, you are entitled to your opinions, just as I am entitled to my opinions of your opinions.

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 3/27/2012 10:45:32 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

I must truly be bored tonight if I'm wasting time answering your post...

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
You are aware that we are uninvited guest in that country.


Yeah, that happens in a war.

We are at war with terrorism not afghanistan. It seems convenient for you to make one equate with the other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
We have wantonly murdered the residents of that country.


Killing isn't murder in a time of war.

Once again we are not at war with afghanistan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Your opinion that "those" people have little regard for human life is assinine on the face of it.


No, it's really not. They've shown ther lack of such regard steadily over the past few decades.

You mean since we have been there?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
When you talk about the "destruction of a book" might I call your attention to the conflict between england and ireland over some minor interpretation of some fucking book.


Not if your assertion is that what happened between those countries somehow justifies the killing over the book I mentioned. (It doesn't.)

Where did I say it justified anything? I was pointing out an equivalance

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The biggoted attitude of your post would seem to reflect the feelings of the poster.
What is it that makes you feel that the deaths of some afghani's is somehow less important than the deaths of those who invaded that country for economic reasons?


Simple. The afghans are a people who've been killing each other for decades over stupid reasons. The "invaders" as you call them are soldiers from my country who were sent to war to combat terrorism (regardless of why you think they are there).

How naive

By the way, it's not necessary for you to bold your entire post.

My how presumptuous of you.



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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 3/27/2012 10:54:48 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
My how presumptuous of you.


And how unfortunate that after all this time, you still don't know how to quote other posts and have to resort to holding yours due to your own ignorance.

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/1/2012 8:13:07 AM   
tweakabelle


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Up to 20 US Troops Executed Panjwai Massacre: Probe

Afghani media are reporting that an official Afghani parliamentary investigation of the massacre has found that up to 20 US troops were involved in the massacre.

read the full article: http://outlookafghanistan.net/news?post_id=3685

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RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/1/2012 8:27:42 AM   
TheHeretic


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LOL, Tweak. Now tell us how a B-25 crashed into the Empire State building, without causing it to collapse.

They are just in denial of what a US soldier is capable of, absent the rules of war we follow.

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/2/2012 1:16:14 AM   
tweakabelle


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I'm not sure what you find amusing in any of this. Or do you just find the idea of Afghanis telling a different story to the official line put out by the US military a joke? Is there some reason other than racism that allows you to dismiss such evidence so arrogantly?

You almost sound proud of this particular soldier - I do hope that wasn't your intention. There is nothing in this story for any one to be proud of.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/2/2012 1:17:40 AM >


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RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/2/2012 6:19:46 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I'm not sure what you find amusing in any of this. Or do you just find the idea of Afghanis telling a different story to the official line put out by the US military a joke? Is there some reason other than racism that allows you to dismiss such evidence so arrogantly?

You almost sound proud of this particular soldier - I do hope that wasn't your intention. There is nothing in this story for any one to be proud of.



What's funny, Tweak, is your habitual willfull ignorance, and desire to latch onto anything that will tend to discredit the evil "western" military, no matter how stupid it might be. I'm not sure which "non-western" military you are differentiating from when you add that clarification, but maybe you've got some nifty fantasy about being a fraulein, liberated by the Red Army in Berlin, or something. YKINMK.

The Afghan gov't is a notoriously corrupt joke, and their claims come with as much weight as birther babble, or 9/11 nutcases get, and the best you have to come back with is an out of nowhere, coward's catcall of "racism." For any element of it to be true requires a grand US conspiracy to commit a Rube Goldberg Machine of a cover-up for something that could just as easily be blamed on the Taliban, and dismissed. What's the motivation?

It's a shame one of our old regulars hasn't been around in a while. He might have a nice link to Prison Planet for you to embrace.

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/2/2012 8:15:54 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Afghani media are reporting that an official Afghani parliamentary investigation of the massacre has found that up to 20 US troops were involved in the massacre.

The Afghani parliament, eh? That would be the bunch that Malali Joya called a "zoo" of "warlords and drug lords," a politically insensitive accusation for which she suffered multiple attempts on her life. "You must understand," Joya wrote in 2009, "that the government headed by Hamid Karzai is full of warlords and extremists who are brothers in creed of the Taliban."

K.

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/3/2012 12:45:09 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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The Afghani media, and parliament are not alone in questioning whether the massacre was the act of a single soldier. Relatives of the deceased, and their fellow-villagers who survived are adamant that there was a number of soldiers acting together.

Salon magazine is asking the same questions:
http://www.salon.com/2012/03/21/did_sgt_bales_have_help/

As is the respected UK newspaper 'The Guardian'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/19/afghans-suspect-us-killing-spree?newsfeed=true

Karzai's Govt has complained that its investigators were denied access to Bales while he was being held at Bagram and charged the US with obstructing its investigation. There have been persistent reports that a few days before the massacre, US troops visited the village concerned and told the villagers they would be held responsible if there were any IEDs. A comrade of Bales was seriously injured by an IED a day or two before the massacre.

None of us know what actually happened there, but there does seem to be good grounds for questioning the official account.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/3/2012 12:46:04 AM >


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RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/3/2012 12:58:04 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

None of us know what actually happened there, but there does seem to be good grounds for questioning the official account.


No. There doesn't.

Get a motive for such a scenario, or get a clue.

Now off to your Googling. You've got Obama's "real" birth certificate to find. I'll be checking your progress over my coffee.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/3/2012 10:52:57 PM   
tweakabelle


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I'm glad you having coffee. It does sound like you need something to help you calm down.

You might like to check out this report from SBS-TV's "Dateline' program (this is the program that broke the Abu Ghraib torture story) while you're drinking your coffee:
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/601431/n/Anatomy-of-a-Massacre

Here's a summary of the report:

Yalda Hakim* of Australia’s SBS network is the first western journalist to visit the villages of Kandahar, Afghanistan, where 17 people were killed in a massacre this month.

Survivors of the attack allege that there was not simply one “rogue soldier”, US Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, the story the mainstream media is peddling; instead, the survivors, some of whom are children, claim there were more soldiers present that bloody morning

“Do you know where your father is?” a voice off-screen asks.
“He died”, replies the small Afghan child.

“How did he die?”
“The Americans.”

The interview goes forward, as we witness an Afghan man sitting calmly as he relays to Hakim that “…they came into my room and they killed my family. My two sons, my nephew and my mother…” The US soldiers had entered the home of an Afghan farmer, Mohammad Wazir, during the killing spree. 11 of his family members had been asleep inside. “They attacked during the night. They knocked on the door. When they knocked on the door my elderly mother came out and she was shot and killed at the door.” After killing his family they brought all the bodies to one room, taking with them linen and blankets from the cupboard; they laid the linen and blankets atop the bodies and set them alight.

Another Afghan man:

“When they screamed, the small children were very scared, especially the six-month-old. When this child screamed the American put his pistol in the child’s mouth."

Hakim drives to the base near the villages where the massacres took place but is told that the area has been laced with mines by the Taliban and is too dangerous for her to visit; the next day an Afghan police team helps her across the booby-trapped roads and fields.

She nears the location where the killings took place, 20 kilometers southwest of Kandahar where investigators believe the lone gunman left armed with an automatic rifle and a pistol; he walked to Alkozai, entered two houses and opened fire on unsuspecting, sleeping Afghan civilians. Hakim enters one of the homes where blood splatter is still clearly evident on the walls.

Hakim asks her guides to explain what transpired in the home to which one man replies, “they ran from over there [one corner of the house] and came to hide here. Then he came and shot them here. Some were shot the yard and some here [in the house].”

The guides point to bullet holes still in the wall as they continue describing the ghastly slaying.

Not only were the Afghan civilians, 9 of them children, shot to death ,their bodies were set on fire afterwards. The Chief Investigator General Karimi says that he assumes that Staff Sgt. Robert Bales was “helped by somebody.” Village elders claim that there were several soldiers and helicopters were present in order to assist Staff Sgt. Bales.

Hakim later attempts to interview the survivors of the massacre but is blocked by US military, told that children were among those who survived and the Americans treating them did not “want them traumatized” by her questions; it was only after personal intervention by Afghanistan’s President Karzai that she was permitted to interview the survivors.

A young Afghan boy points to his stitched ear, softly relaying to Hakim that a bullet had traveled through the cartilage of his ear, after which he began to discuss the incident in its entirety:
“When my father came out, he shot my father. Then he entered our room. We ran from that room to the other room. He came and shot us in that room, and then he left.”

The small Afghan child shown in the earlier frame, 8 year-old Noorbinak, reappears, still wrapped in a scarf, nervously relaying her account of what a US soldier did to her and her family as her eyes dart below the gazes of those around her:

“He was shooting. He shot my father’s dog first, and then he shot my father in the foot. Then he dragged my mother by the hair. My mother was screaming and he held a gun to her. And my father said “leave her alone” and then [the soldier] shot him.” The soldier later turns the gun on her, shooting her in the leg.

“One entered the room”, she continues. “And the others were standing in the yard, holding lights.” She too claims that there was more than one US soldier present.

A brother of the one of the victims also seen in an earlier frame corroborates the claim, that Staff Sgt. Robert Bales was not the only soldier present. “The Americans left the room. My brother’s children say they saw him in the yard with many Americans with lights on their heads. And they had lights on the ends of their guns as well. They don’t know if there were 15 or 20, or however many there were.

Reporter Hakim speaks to one last survivor during her journey, given the pseudonym Amina, who is surrounded by her six children. She describes having seen so much blood, to such an extent that it was as if “three sheep had been slaughtered.” She describes having to drag one victim back into her home, his brain falling into hand. Amina goes on to express her understandable feelings of enmity towards the soldiers:

“I had no feeling other than… if I could lay my hands on them…I’d rip them apart with my bare hands
.”

So several eyewitnesses and others present at the scene of the crime are alleging that up to 20 US soldiers were present at the scene of the massacre.

As I stated before, there seems to be good grounds for questioning the official account. There is, at the very least, a lot of conflicting accounts and evidence, and serious allegations that are not being addressed or answered by those responsible.


* The reporter, Yalda Hakim, is of Afghani heritage and arrived in Australia as a child-refugee. Her background enables her to get access to places in Afghanistan other foreigners seem unable to access and has led to a flow of great reports and unique perspectives on Afghanistan.




< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/3/2012 11:05:18 PM >


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RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/3/2012 11:17:32 PM   
TheHeretic


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Funny. They are such awful witnesses, when it comes to where the IEDs are buried...

Did the reporters dig the bullets out of any of those holes, to establish how many guns were being fired?

Now you are throwing in helicopters, which makes this an even larger operation, and an even more massive conspiracy, so again I will ask you to offer a motive for it.

Shit, girl, I said I wanted something to go with my coffee, not a last cigarette before bed.

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/3/2012 11:54:43 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Funny. They are such awful witnesses, when it comes to where the IEDs are buried...

Did the reporters dig the bullets out of any of those holes, to establish how many guns were being fired?

Now you are throwing in helicopters, which makes this an even larger operation, and an even more massive conspiracy, so again I will ask you to offer a motive for it.

Shit, girl, I said I wanted something to go with my coffee, not a last cigarette before bed.

You appear to be under the delusion that I am posting all this for your personal benefit/information. Dream on ......

RE: a motive. It is not incumbent on me to suggest a motive - though there are a few glaring obvious potential motives already alluded to. Eg revenge in post #173:
"There have been persistent reports that a few days before the massacre, US troops visited the village concerned and told the villagers they would be held responsible if there were any IEDs. A comrade of Bales was seriously injured by an IED a day or two before the massacre."

All I am stating, and I believe I have posted sufficient evidence to justify my statements, is that there is a lot of evidence that conflicts with the official account. That there are a lot of unanswered questions seems to have been established beyond doubt. So, at this point, and with such evidence as is in the public domain, the possibility that there was more than a single soldier involved in the massacre cannot be discounted.

Why you find the mere mention of this possibility so threatening that you have resorted to the litany of abuse above and chucking a hissy fit to deny it is something you might care to ponder during one of your more lucid moments

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/4/2012 12:00:29 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians - 4/9/2012 7:36:29 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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I've just come across these comments by Robert Fisk on why this massacre may have happened. They seem particularly apt.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-madness-is-not-the-reason-for-this-massacre-7575737.html?origin=internalSearch

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Profile   Post #: 178
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