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I actually think that a healthy dose of self honesty is required for self awareness.

Then again, I could be full of shit...

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And now you're projecting, Marc.
I'm not denying anybody their humanity. The lack of courage for self awareness is (as LaTigresse says) a very human failing. That doesn't make admirable in somebody who's willing to take a crowbar to the splinter in somebody else's eye before looking at their own in a mirror, dig?

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Yes, but don't you think that most people end up buying into their fantasies and actually believing them to be true?

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Have you ever read about the Stanford Prison Experiment? It is truly frightening how easily good and decent people can turn evil. All it really takes is a failure to see another person's humanity... and a little bit of power.

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Maybe I'm being too optimistic but I've got to believe that most of them, deep down inside, have to know that their "beliefs" just don't jive with observable reality. To acknowledge that observable reality, however, would mean turning their backs upon a lifetime of community and culture that is all they really know.

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I actually think that the 'tribe' mentality allows people to lie to themselves, even when faced with fact after fact that they are, in fact, wrong. Specifically when they are part of a group that believes similarly.

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Oh, I've read quite a bit around that one. I think you're confusing "evil" with "weak" there, though. Not saying "no" is weak. Deliberately setting out to harm somebody else is evil. There's quite a distinction there.

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You're forgetting that the whole function of blind faith in a religion is for many people a means to ignore reality and live somewhere more comfortable and soothing to their prejudices. In that light, any empirical evidence to the contrary of what their book tells them is the only truth, can only be an evil sophistry that Satan is setting in the way of their faith to try to corrupt them.

The benefit of any rigid inflexible ideology is that it means that you'll never have to think about anything on it's own terms ever again,

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Exactly. Which is the problem in the religious mindset you and LaT are kicking around, is it not?

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I am 100% certain that every one of these hard core christian men are A. 100% straight B.are virgins when they marry, C. only EVER have sex with their wives to create children. D. never masturbate, and E. Never EVER have sex with anyone/thing other than their wives.

Cuz yanno, they follow they are absolutely sure that's what god wants because they know the bible through and through, so well they have such expert opinions on other peoples sex lives, bodies, and personal relationships.

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ORIGINAL: joshspet1980
I don't know if you could call CaptJosh a hardcore Christian man. But, I do know that my Master does go to church regularly. His mother is what you would call a "hardcore" Christian lady. She doesn't always approve of our sexual interests either, thus the need to buy a more subtle collar to wear with my wedding dress when we get married. But, we have decided that we state our beliefs, she states hers and we might debate it back and forth, but we don't let her opinions make us feel too badly. Sometimes I feel convicted on things and I will read and think about it. I might decide she's right and then I might decide she's wrong. She'll still love us no matter what we decide. But, she will always point out her own opinion to us. Which we respond to and go on our merry way.

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ORIGINAL: joshspet1980

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I am 100% certain that every one of these hard core christian men are A. 100% straight B.are virgins when they marry, C. only EVER have sex with their wives to create children. D. never masturbate, and E. Never EVER have sex with anyone/thing other than their wives.

Cuz yanno, they follow they are absolutely sure that's what god wants because they know the bible through and through, so well they have such expert opinions on other peoples sex lives, bodies, and personal relationships.

I don't know if you could call CaptJosh a hardcore Christian man. But, I do know that my Master does go to church regularly. His mother is what you would call a "hardcore" Christian lady. She doesn't always approve of our sexual interests either, thus the need to buy a more subtle collar to wear with my wedding dress when we get married. But, we have decided that we state our beliefs, she states hers and we might debate it back and forth, but we don't let her opinions make us feel too badly. Sometimes I feel convicted on things and I will read and think about it. I might decide she's right and then I might decide she's wrong. She'll still love us no matter what we decide. But, she will always point out her own opinion to us. Which we respond to and go on our merry way.

A. He is 100 percent straight, which if we are allowed to be ourselves I don't see where there's a problem with that. There are plenty of bi and gay men around I don't think the world is going to cry about Josh being straight, I'm sure not.

B. He is definitely no virgin. Neither am I. But we both wish with all of our hearts that we had never been with anyone else before we were together. Because those relationships before weren't even close to being as wonderful as this one is. My greatest gift to give to my Master for me would have been my virginity. That saddens me greatly.

C. We most definitely don't always have sex to create children only. In fact, I have an IUD that was controlling bleeding which in the past had made it very hard for me to have children. Although, I do have 2 children now. The doctors said I would never have children even with fertility treatments and I ended up have 2 who are 8 months apart because my 2nd was premature due to a placenta previa. I didn't use any fertility treatments or anything like that. I just had sex and got pregnant. I will be getting my IUD taken out though, because I have decided I don't want to use that for birth control anymore. I've been having problems. But, we are together, and it's very intense when we haven't seen each other for a few weeks. I'm staying with his mother to help her out because Master's dad passed away a few weeks ago.

D. I know for a fact that Master masturbates. We talk on the phone every night when we are apart and we both do this activity together. I know this is TMI, but to reply to your thoughts on the Christian man I had to say that.

E. As for this one, yes, Master has said that both of us will never, ever have sex with anyone or anything (excluding toys and the like) other than each other. We have made a commitment to one another and neither one of us have a desire to be with someone else. Master is all I crave, want, or need. I love him dearly and I am totally devoted to his pleasure and no one else's. And he feels the same for me. Maybe we have had sex with other people before we were a couple, but now, we are totally devoted to one another even before we are married. Master is very possessive of me anyways and I love it when he grabs me and growls, "Mine, Mine, Mine!". I love it! And then he purrs and I just melt. I can't think of anyone that could make me feel the way he does and I don't even want to try.

So, I hope that helps you know at least one Christian man who isn't exactly what you think. And that is my Master, CaptJosh. My beloved, my protector, my heart.

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Yes but how much do religious fundamentalists really believe their own religion? I think that people are capable of great self delusion but in order to be self deluded you have to know what the reality is.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Perhaps Marc2b, what you are interpreting as 'self-delusion' can also be seen as 'investment'.

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Perhaps Marc2b, what you are interpreting as 'self-delusion' can also be seen as 'investment'.

Seeing things from this perspective, people choose their 'truth' - be it empirical science, religion, humanism or whatever. The strength with which that 'truth' is then maintained varies according to the level of emotional investment a person puts into the 'truth' of one's choice, which is in turn related to the particular emotional needs driving that person Once that initial decision has been made, the particular reasons that influenced the decision may become irrelevant as they are supplanted by multiple levels of self reinforcing rationalisation. Decision making and justifications of this nature are pretty widespread - they are far from a fundy monopoly.

The decision becomes the filter through which all reality is interpreted - just as a scientist interprets any new data through the filter of scientific theory. Data that confirms the decision is seized upon and data that casts doubt on the decision is rejected/problematised/re-interpreted in such a way that the original decision is vindicated. (Scientists often do precisely the same thing, though they deny it - in fact we all do it from time to time) Reality is perceived as a fundamentally different process to the reality that you may perceive but just as 'true' for them as your reality is for you.

So my feeling is LaT is correct to point out that these people really do believe their explanations to be fundamentally and eternally true. That's why their beliefs are so impervious to data to the contrary, their world views so resistant to basic facts that the rest of us accept unhesitatingly. And why ultimately, compromise is out of the question for them, and so many of them are prepared to stake everything on the 'correctness' of their beliefs