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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 2:15:42 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		I dont really believe zimmerman is a racist.
I dont see how the violence was proportionate.
Its in our laws here, its a good law.
About the kid, I dont even mind if he had a misdemeanor, he is innocent.
I wouldnt say glow in the dark cause that sounds, you know what it sounds like to call a black man glowing in the dark.
Shooting mishaps happen in Europe as well but far less on average.
Imagine if we would have the same gunlaws here.
Most people would be scared outta their skulls.
Kinda logical if you think we live in a prozac society.
Lots of nutbags.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 2:29:21 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I wouldnt say glow in the dark cause that sounds, you know what it sounds like to call a black man glowing in the dark.

No, actually, I don't. I don't have a clue. And I really don't think I want to know, thanks all the same.

K.

(in reply to MrBukani)
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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:17:43 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Once again, since you missed it the first 10 times, he needn't be scared while following, only


only stupid.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 303
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:19:05 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I've not been honest?


Glad you're finally getting it.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 304
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:28:34 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

quote:

Legally, 17-year-olds can and have been charged as adults. Try again.


Only when they've committed felonies. Last I knew, Trayvon Martin had no record, had never been arrested. Legally, he was a minor, a child.


17 is also the legal age of consent for things like sex and joining the military, though the latter must come with parental consent.


So? What has that to do with the case at hand? He wasn't fucking or joining the military.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:41:10 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

He wasn't fucking or joining the military.


O...oh yeah? Were you there????

Thought I'd save DM the trouble.


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 306
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:42:28 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

But self-defense does not require that.


Does self-defense require following someone 911 told you not to follow?


It's actual evidence that Zimmeman, failing to do what a reasonable and prudent person would, is at the very least guilty of negligence, which is the hard part of an indictment on manslaughter.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 307
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:44:33 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

But self-defense does not require that.


Does self-defense require following someone 911 told you not to follow?


If you're going to keep beating this drum, at least get right what said.

I'll post it again, since you missed the first 20 times:

Dispatcher: "Are you following him?"
Zimmerman: "Yeah."
Dispatcher: "We don't need you to do that."

And again...the cops have said he did not have to listen to that.


BUT

The Judge and Jury DO listen to it when the determine if there was any evidence to support the manslaughter charge. To wit, if Zimmerman didn't NEGLIGENTLY DISREGARD THE ADVICE GIVEN, Martin would still be alive.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 308
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:44:52 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		That's a stretch, I think.

Stupid isn't negligence.

His lawyer isn't claiming SYG, btw, on the grounds that's more for your home; rather, he's claiming flat out self-defense.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 309
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:46:42 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Again, the point was a scared man isn't going to follow the person at this point.




Again, the assertion isn't that he was scared the moment he saw Martin. It's that while on his back, bleeding from multiple injuries, he feared Martin enough to pull the trigger.

Seriously, why does this distinction escape you?


The fact is that he was scared enough to call 9-1-1 and say:

"This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something."

Do you go pursuing someone YOU SAID was "on drugs or something" when the police are on their way.

Well, you might. But keep in mind the standard, legally is Reasonable and Prudent Person.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/24/2012 6:47:24 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 310
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:48:07 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's a stretch, I think.

Stupid isn't negligence.

His lawyer isn't claiming SYG, btw, on the grounds that's more for your home; rather, he's claiming flat out self-defense.


Good luck with THAT. But it's at least a valid LEGAL strategy.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:50:57 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

It's that while on his back, bleeding from multiple injuries, he feared Martin enough to pull the trigger.



It's Zimmerman's own fault IF he, as he claims, ended up on his own back, bleeding from multiple injuries, so trivial as to not even require a ride to the hospital for evaluation.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 312
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:52:25 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
So we've established he's not the brightest guy.


So it's not bright to have concern for your neighbors? Man...glad I don't live near you.


I don't stalk and murder my neighbors.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 313
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:52:32 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I think that's the intent.

Per the discussion here---it also points out the limitations of claiming SYG here, even to Zimmerman's lawyer.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 314
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 6:56:22 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		DM keeps going on about "presumption of innocence", and I'd like to clear something up.

"Presumption of Innocence" is why we have an adversarial system, and juries and all. It doesn't mean the police giving the benefit of the doubt to a suspect in a manslaughter case.

To file an indictment or information for manslaughter, there needs to be PROBABLE CAUSE to believe that:

1) Trayvon Martin is dead

2) George Zimmerman did it through act or negligence.

NOW, the established FACTS, bear out these two conditions. George Zimmerman ADMITS to the killing. Whether it's his act or via negligence is beside the point.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 7:25:46 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

DM keeps going on about "presumption of innocence", and I'd like to clear something up.

You've cleared it up fucking repeatedly, most recently in your previous post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I don't stalk and murder my neighbors.

Prejudged and found guilty. Stalking and murder. Case closed.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/24/2012 7:29:04 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 316
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 7:29:13 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		Just a thought,
Doesnt a police officer gets an investigation if he killed someone in the line of duty to justify the action?

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 7:29:36 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		You're making the naive mistake of conflating two distinct contexts:

Whereas, on one hand, I'm CITING THE REQUIRMENTS FOR PROSECUTION questioning why, given the established facts, the Sanford PD chose to go off the rails to obstruct justice.

On the other hand, not being in the Jury Pool, we have the luxury of making MORAL JUDGEMENTS BASED ON ALL THE AVAILABLE EVIDENCE, without compromising the integrity of the adversarial judicial process.

It's Zimmerman's own fault IF he, as he claims, ended up on his own back, bleeding from multiple injuries, so trivial as to not even require a ride to the hospital for evaluation.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/24/2012 7:38:02 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 318
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 7:36:19 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Just a thought,
Doesnt a police officer gets an investigation if he killed someone in the line of duty to justify the action?


That's the thing here. It's not about Zimmerman using the SYG law to cover up his fuck-up.

It's that the Sanford PD went out of their way to avoid the ROUTINE charging of manslaughter, which would have given Zimmerman's lawyer the LEGAL opportunity to move to dismiss on self defense.

In all cases, when you kill someone, you need to explain to a judge why he needed killing. And if the judge denies your motion to dismiss, you then can explain it to a jury.

but

At this point, given that Zimmerman's testimony in a federal conspiracy to obstruct justice/RICO prosecution case against the Sanford PD, it's better than even odds that his 'buddies' at SPD took him out to the swamp and fed him to an alligator.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 319
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/24/2012 7:47:19 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		That was kinda my thought, how can anyone kill anybody without it being judged directly.
I guess this will end up in a civil case like OJ Simpson.
The criminal case he was found not guilty,
The civil case he was found guilty.
I wonder wich case supercedes.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 320
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