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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 9:35:06 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Here's an excerpt from an NRA-Certified Concealed Carry Instructor's website.



■You cannot use deadly force to protect property. If they’re stealing a hubcap they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You cannot use deadly force to make a citizen’s arrest, or to stop a fleeing criminal. If they’re fleeing they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You’re responsible for all of the shots you fire, including misses that hit innocent bystanders. Use aimed fire. “Spray and pray” is a bad idea.


He was initially protecting property and pursuing what he thought was a fleeing criminal.


But did he draw before, or after fisticuffs started? If his gun remained concealed up to the time Martin started to get the better of him, then he has a self defense case, despite the fact he instigated the altercation in the first place. That's whats wrong with the law as written.


He doesn't have a self defense case. The self defense affirmative defense only applies if you're not the aggressor. ( HINT: THE GUY WHO GETS OUT OF HIS CAR, ARMED, AND STALKS, PURSUES AND EXECUTES AN INNOCENT KID IS THE AGGRESSOR... )



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 10:07:02 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Here's an excerpt from an NRA-Certified Concealed Carry Instructor's website.



■You cannot use deadly force to protect property. If they’re stealing a hubcap they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You cannot use deadly force to make a citizen’s arrest, or to stop a fleeing criminal. If they’re fleeing they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You’re responsible for all of the shots you fire, including misses that hit innocent bystanders. Use aimed fire. “Spray and pray” is a bad idea.


He was initially protecting property and pursuing what he thought was a fleeing criminal.


But did he draw before, or after fisticuffs started? If his gun remained concealed up to the time Martin started to get the better of him, then he has a self defense case, despite the fact he instigated the altercation in the first place. That's whats wrong with the law as written.


He doesn't have a self defense case. The self defense affirmative defense only applies if you're not the aggressor. ( HINT: THE GUY WHO GETS OUT OF HIS CAR, ARMED, AND STALKS, PURSUES AND EXECUTES AN INNOCENT KID IS THE AGGRESSOR... )




Then why isn't he under arrest? It's obvious Martin was unarmed.

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(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 10:20:04 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Here's an excerpt from an NRA-Certified Concealed Carry Instructor's website.



■You cannot use deadly force to protect property. If they’re stealing a hubcap they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You cannot use deadly force to make a citizen’s arrest, or to stop a fleeing criminal. If they’re fleeing they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You’re responsible for all of the shots you fire, including misses that hit innocent bystanders. Use aimed fire. “Spray and pray” is a bad idea.


He was initially protecting property and pursuing what he thought was a fleeing criminal.


But did he draw before, or after fisticuffs started? If his gun remained concealed up to the time Martin started to get the better of him, then he has a self defense case, despite the fact he instigated the altercation in the first place. That's whats wrong with the law as written.


Meanwhile, two state legislators who sponsored Florida's "stand your ground" deadly-force law in 2005 called for George Zimmerman to be arrested for shooting Martin. "They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid," one of the lawmakers, Republican former Sen. Durell Peaden told the Miami Herald. "He has no protection under my law." His co-sponsor, current Rep. Dennis Baxley (R), told the paper: "There's nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue and confront people, particularly if law enforcement has told you to stay put. I don't see why this statute is being challenged in this case. That is to prevent you from being attacked by other people."

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

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(in reply to subrob1967)
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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 10:26:00 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
Then why isn't he under arrest? It's obvious Martin was unarmed.


The Sanford PD has a little problem with considering black people to not be game animals. They got in a shitload of trouble LAST YEAR over it, and the REAL fun begins when the FBI rolls in to start taking a real close look at the officers.

It's all over except figuring out who is going to turn rat for the feds....

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 10:55:56 PM   
DarqueMirror


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Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Lets start with the defination of Pursuing, DM:

quote:


1. to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, etc.; chase.

2. to follow close upon; go with; attend: Bad luck pursued him.

3. to strive to gain; seek to attain or accomplish (an end, object, purpose, etc.).

4. to proceed in accordance with (a method, plan, etc.).

5. to carry on or continue (a course of action, a train of thought, an inquiry, studies, etc.).



What's laughable to me is that you looked up pursuing, but not the word you so facetiously bolded -- follow.

1. To come or go after; proceed behind: Follow the usher to your seat.
2.
a. To go after in or as if in pursuit: "The wrong she had done followed her and haunted her dream" (Katherine Anne Porter).
b. To keep under surveillance: followed the suspect around town.
3.
a. To move along the course of; take: We followed a path to the shore.
b. To go in the direction of; be guided by: followed the sun westward across the plains; followed the signs to the zoo.

Only one of those mentions pursuit. Thus, not every following is a "pursuit."

What's also funny is how you bolded the word follow, which of course takes it completely out of context. You failed to notice the words "in order to overtake," and that was just in the first line.

As I stated quite plainly and correctly -- you can follow without pursuing, but you cannot pursue without following.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 10:58:37 PM   
DarqueMirror


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Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
If you had read the appropritate articles, you would know that he played Optimist Football, not HS football. That means he was too small, slow, skinny or weak for his high school team.


And yet he still managed to bloody the nose and head of a guy with nearly 100 lbs over him.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 11:11:23 PM   
manunkind


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Maybe the kid should have done the smart thing and waited for the police to show up instead of running.

Let's see, someone with a badge and a gun stops this kid.
Kid runs.
Kid gets caught.
Kid beats the shit out of the guy who has the badge and the gun. (Yeah... the kid was winning the fight...)
Kid gets shot.

Tea and skittles don't have a damned thing to do with this. If the kid would have just said "Okay, I'll wait for the police to sort this out.", it would have diffused the whole situation before it even started. The cops would have verified that his father lives in the gated, secured community that he was visiting. If the kid wasn't mentally retarded, then his parents need to take some responsibility for raising such a foolish child. Whats heartbreaking about this is that if they had done their jobs as parents and taught their child some sense their son would probably be alive today.

-SD-



Yes, running away because someone was wielding a gun at them makes them guilty.

I'm glad to see that you're just so American to presume them guilty before innocent.

You are a seriously gross individual.

Wouldn't you be more at home on Free Republic or Stormfront?

< Message edited by manunkind -- 3/20/2012 11:12:34 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 11:13:12 PM   
DarqueMirror


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Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Here's the latest, a friend of Martin's recounting their cell phone conversation as he was being followed:

Not looking good for Zimmerman.


What's amusing to me about that is it took a week and a half of the police saying they have no evidence to dispute Zimmerman's story for this friend to "suddenly remember" they had Martin on the phone at the time.

Personally, I'd want to see phone records.

Someone else could just as easily have said "Oh I had Martin on the phone talking about football. I told him to tell Zimmerman he was just visiting a friend, but he told me 'Naah, fuck that. I'm gonna beat this chump's ass."

Again....with no "evidence," anyone can say anything. That's easily shown by this very thread. A bunch of people who don't even live in that state have posted here as though they knew for undeniable fact that Zimmerman jumped from his car "TJ Hooker-style" and went screaming toward Martin, gun waving in the air.

Funny, even this person who claims to have been on the phone with Martin indicated they told him to run, and he refused. Would anyone in this thread *not* run ther asses off if Zimmerman was screaming and waving a gun? Some have already made it very clear that they would, in fact, "show him cheeks and elbows."

Why then did Martin not run.....if Zimmerman was supposedly "pursuing" him, gun drawn. Why did he not run?

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 11:23:06 PM   
VioletGray


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/29/2007
From: Baltimore, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Here's the latest, a friend of Martin's recounting their cell phone conversation as he was being followed:

Not looking good for Zimmerman.


What's amusing to me about that is it took a week and a half of the police saying they have no evidence to dispute Zimmerman's story for this friend to "suddenly remember" they had Martin on the phone at the time.

Personally, I'd want to see phone records.

Someone else could just as easily have said "Oh I had Martin on the phone talking about football. I told him to tell Zimmerman he was just visiting a friend, but he told me 'Naah, fuck that. I'm gonna beat this chump's ass."

Again....with no "evidence," anyone can say anything. That's easily shown by this very thread. A bunch of people who don't even live in that state have posted here as though they knew for undeniable fact that Zimmerman jumped from his car "TJ Hooker-style" and went screaming toward Martin, gun waving in the air.

Funny, even this person who claims to have been on the phone with Martin indicated they told him to run, and he refused. Would anyone in this thread *not* run ther asses off if Zimmerman was screaming and waving a gun? Some have already made it very clear that they would, in fact, "show him cheeks and elbows."

Why then did Martin not run.....if Zimmerman was supposedly "pursuing" him, gun drawn. Why did he not run?


From cnn.com:

"Phone records show Martin was on the phone with her much of the day, including around the time of the killing, Crump said. He argued that if Martin were really "up to no good," he wouldn't have been chatting with his friend on the phone."

Also you need to get off this:



quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
If you had read the appropritate articles, you would know that he played Optimist Football, not HS football. That means he was too small, slow, skinny or weak for his high school team.


And yet he still managed to bloody the nose and head of a guy with nearly 100 lbs over him.



There are more ways than punches ton get a bloody nose. Heads can collide when you're wrestling. I'm not sure why you assume that he got all Jean Claude Van Damme on this way bigger guy.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 12:52:02 AM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray
From cnn.com:

"Phone records show Martin was on the phone with her much of the day, including around the time of the killing, Crump said. He argued that if Martin were really "up to no good," he wouldn't have been chatting with his friend on the phone."


Right, because in our cell phone-saturated society, it's unthinkable that someone would be on ther phone while doing others things like shopping, driving or *gasp* being "up to no good."

And "around the time of the killing" doesn't mean *at* the time, while advising him to run. Funny....if the person was truly on the phone as this all went down.....why not come out to greet Martin?

quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray
Also you need to get off this:

There are more ways than punches ton get a bloody nose. Heads can collide when you're wrestling. I'm not sure why you assume that he got all Jean Claude Van Damme on this way bigger guy.


No, you need to get off Van Damme. I'm not saying Martin was a martial arts expert. But Zimmerman was clearly bloody. Which means that Martin at least fighting with him.

(in reply to VioletGray)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 4:02:40 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
If you had read the appropritate articles, you would know that he played Optimist Football, not HS football. That means he was too small, slow, skinny or weak for his high school team.


And yet he still managed to bloody the nose and head of a guy with nearly 100 lbs over him.


That's what the guy with the gun claimed after he murdered the kid, yes.

Of course, that doesn't meet the standard of the Law, where since he was the aggressor, he had the duty to retreat.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 4:06:22 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


Right, because in our cell phone-saturated society, it's unthinkable that someone would be on ther phone while doing others things like shopping, driving or *gasp* being "up to no good."


I want to be REALLY CLEAR ABOUT THIS.


**ANYONE WHO SUGGESTS THAT TRAVYON MARTIN WAS BREAKING THE LAW IS LYING**

Why are you lying about Travyon Martin?


quote:

I'm not saying Martin was a martial arts expert. But Zimmerman was clearly bloody. Which means that Martin at least fighting with him.



Absent any EMS or Hospital records for his 'injuries', I'm going to have to go along with "What injuries?" ( given that the Sanford PD is untrustworthy, this is not a big leap... )

See, that's the thing here. *IF* Zimmerman uses the self-defense claim AT TRIAL, he's going to have to PROVE that he tried to break off contact and that Martin kept coming at him SO FORCEFULLY THAT HE FEARED FOR HIS LIFE. Not even bothering to call EMS doesn't support that claim.

And given that it looks like Martin **HAD ESCAPED HIM ONCE AND ZIMMERMAN THEN PURSUED HIM** there's no possible way he'd be able to make that claim fly in court.

When the FBI forensic audiologists get done cleaning up the tapes, we're all going to hear a 17 year old kid begging for his life before the coupe-de-grace...

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/21/2012 4:12:44 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 4:22:16 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray
From cnn.com:

"Phone records show Martin was on the phone with her much of the day, including around the time of the killing, Crump said. He argued that if Martin were really "up to no good," he wouldn't have been chatting with his friend on the phone."


Right, because in our cell phone-saturated society, it's unthinkable that someone would be on ther phone while doing others things like shopping, driving or *gasp* being "up to no good."


Curious that Mr. Zimmerman didn't reconize the kid was talking on a cellphone. The whole 'hand up to ear' would have been a huge givaway that he was on a phone. Yet, Mr. Zimmerman can tell the kid was black, at night, during a moonless night?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
And "around the time of the killing" doesn't mean *at* the time, while advising him to run. Funny....if the person was truly on the phone as this all went down.....why not come out to greet Martin?


Just like the whole 'following is pursuing and pursuing is following' bit; His girlfriend states she told him to run away from Mr. Zimmerman. If he wasn't on the phone at the time, how could the girlfriend know that Mr. Martin was sensing trouble? Telepathy maybe? One can see that the time the phone goes dead (celltowers dont lie on that kind of information), is well within the time frame Mr. Zimmerman states he was pursuing Mr. Martin on foot AFTER getting out of his car.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray
Also you need to get off this:

There are more ways than punches ton get a bloody nose. Heads can collide when you're wrestling. I'm not sure why you assume that he got all Jean Claude Van Damme on this way bigger guy.


No, you need to get off Van Damme. I'm not saying Martin was a martial arts expert. But Zimmerman was clearly bloody. Which means that Martin at least fighting with him.


Who says Mr. Martin inflicted any of those wounds? Oh yeah, the guy who pulled the trigger, and stated its all 'self defense'! Yeah, its not self defense if you actively pursue/follow someone AFTER the police tell you to not do so. Further, its not self defense when you possess superior firepower on an unarmed target. Finally its not self defense when you go after someone that is black AFTER stating to the police that 'his kind always gets away' (paraphrasing). Anyone could argue that your judgement was bias, flawed, and uncredible. Further, previous history of making calls to the police show signs of paranoia and delusions, doesnt exactly help the whole 'self defense' arguement.


(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 4:32:37 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Here's the latest, a friend of Martin's recounting their cell phone conversation as he was being followed:

Not looking good for Zimmerman.


What's amusing to me about that is it took a week and a half of the police saying they have no evidence to dispute Zimmerman's story for this friend to "suddenly remember" they had Martin on the phone at the time.

Personally, I'd want to see phone records.

Someone else could just as easily have said "Oh I had Martin on the phone talking about football. I told him to tell Zimmerman he was just visiting a friend, but he told me 'Naah, fuck that. I'm gonna beat this chump's ass."

Again....with no "evidence," anyone can say anything. That's easily shown by this very thread. A bunch of people who don't even live in that state have posted here as though they knew for undeniable fact that Zimmerman jumped from his car "TJ Hooker-style" and went screaming toward Martin, gun waving in the air.

Funny, even this person who claims to have been on the phone with Martin indicated they told him to run, and he refused. Would anyone in this thread *not* run ther asses off if Zimmerman was screaming and waving a gun? Some have already made it very clear that they would, in fact, "show him cheeks and elbows."

Why then did Martin not run.....if Zimmerman was supposedly "pursuing" him, gun drawn. Why did he not run?


You take pleasure, enjoyment, and/or humor from the idea that a 17 year old kid lost his life by a pistol shooting guy whose story doesnt really check out?






I would state what I was thinking, if you agree with the above question. But I think the admin would delete the post. And I believe the question above seems to be the general feelings of other posters as you argue things in each of your posts. There are moments to enjoy a good arguement and discussion. This REALLY isnt one of them.

< Message edited by joether -- 3/21/2012 4:36:26 AM >

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 4:35:26 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


You take pleasure, enjoyment, and/or humor from the idea that a 17 year old kid lost his life by a pistol shooting guy whose story doesnt really check out?


There are people, Sanford PD included, who just don't think of dead black kids as anything but a target.

They'd take Zimmerman out for a beer for having a good day hunting.

And let's be real clear here. George Zimmerman stalked, hunted, and killed Martin just like it was the first day of hunting season.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 5:06:03 AM   
vixenkneels


Posts: 94
Joined: 2/5/2005
From: LAKE OF THE OZARKS, MISSOURI
Status: offline 		http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/us/justice-department-opens-inquiry-in-killing-of-trayvon-martin.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

Not sure if anyone posted this link...there are eight 911 call recordings you can listen to including Zimmerman's phone call. The most chilling call is the second or third one where you can hear the boy screaming help in the background..he sounds SO scared and desperate and then...one shot rings out and the screaming for help ceases.

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(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 5:34:07 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I can't wait until the FBI forensic audiologists get to work and scrub these tapes clean to provide a transcript.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to vixenkneels)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 5:53:58 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Think the song lyric is "thats just the way it is, some things will never change".

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 5:55:09 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Still two sets of laws in this country. A set for white people and a set for everyone else.

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/21/2012 6:41:56 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Still two sets of laws in this country. A set for white people and a set for everyone else.

George Zimmerman is a Hispanic, right up there with Blacks and Jews as far as the average Anglo racist is concerned.

But thanks anyway.

K.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 180
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