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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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Now, quit your pouting and grab a juice box.

aww, isn't that cute. Implying I am a child without actually saying it to slide by the moderators. You are a charmer aren't you.

But go ahead and ignore the title of the thread "Conservative christian values now include rape?" I am sure you weren't trying to imply anything with that either.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Because its "popular" to run on "christian values". As I have said before.... many people use religion to advance their own agendas. That isnt a religious person.. that isnt a christian person.

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

So the argument can be made that rape is an age old Biblically-mandated and -approved tradition. After all conservative christians are the ones who insist that the Bible is God's word to be taken literally and obeyed scrupulously in every respect. If the above is taken literally, rape can be seen as a Biblical form of courtship.

Charming isn't it?

Not at all. Not that I'm trying to defend societal practices of that age, but that was considered quite a punishment, and the intent was because the man had violated her and made her "undesirable", it became his responsibility to pay restitution and take care of her.

I'm certainly glad we've evolved since then, but that passage certainly wasn't in support of rape.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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While I do realize this isnt the only representative of the christian conservative movement, there is such a disconnect here between their "values" and the truth.

You mean the truth as in this guy doesn't represent any group and is a responsible for his own actions? Because that's the truth. But go ahead and try to explain why one mans actions should reflect on anyone but that one man. Moon has already started with the "well someone else does it to" so maybe you can come up with something more imaginative.

Perhaps the disconnect can be traced back to the Bible.

The Bible has quite a few less-than-exemplary mentions of rape. Here's one:

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.


There are an awful lot more. This particular mention is far from the worst. They are all conveniently listed here.

So the argument can be made that rape is an age old Biblically-mandated and -approved tradition. After all conservative christians are the ones who insist that the Bible is God's word to be taken literally and obeyed scrupulously in every respect. If the above is taken literally, rape can be seen as a Biblical form of courtship.

Charming isn't it?

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Two things: There's a page full of other pro-rape quotes, including quotes where God orders rapes in the Bible at the link above. Explain all of them away. Here's one to get you started:
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.


And if you are going to apply the "that was them this is now" argument, apply it consistently, especially to areas like sexual morality, gay sex etc

Or is the capacity to take the Bible seriously wholly dependent on selective interpretation?

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ORIGINAL: Arturas
Therefore, the Bible protects her and makes you, the rapist, responsible for her, to her father and for her future welfare.

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I fully understand how you can pull a verse or two out of the Bible and then easily deplict it how you have well done. However, it is one of many verses on the subject of making war in ancient times against a ruthless enemy. The Lord God is teaching a people, a whole nation who once were slaves for hundreds of years, how to deal with ruthless enemies they will encounter. When at war in ancient times this is how you must treat the enemy. Nothing more. Nothing less.

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There are similar passenges in the Koran. They address a specific time and situation. What do you say to that?

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: Arturas
Therefore, the Bible protects her and makes you, the rapist, responsible for her, to her father and for her future welfare.

How does paying her father fifty pieces of silver have any bearing on 'protecting' the woman who's been raped? It's so clear that crystal is as mud in a whirlpool by comparison: With his daughter having been raped, the father's 'property' has been devalued. That section of the Bible is pure ugliness.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: Arturas
Therefore, the Bible protects her and makes you, the rapist, responsible for her, to her father and for her future welfare.

How does paying her father fifty pieces of silver have any bearing on 'protecting' the woman who's been raped? It's so clear that crystal is as mud in a whirlpool by comparison: With his daughter having been raped, the father's 'property' has been devalued. That section of the Bible is pure ugliness.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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I fully understand how you can pull a verse or two out of the Bible and then easily deplict it how you have well done. However, it is one of many verses on the subject of making war in ancient times against a ruthless enemy. The Lord God is teaching a people, a whole nation who once were slaves for hundreds of years, how to deal with ruthless enemies they will encounter. When at war in ancient times this is how you must treat the enemy. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Is the Bible the Word of God according to your beliefs? Or is it a cute historical document of limited relevance?

The relevant quote encourages the Jews to attack their neighbours, sack their cities kill the menfolk and rape the women. It is one of a number of similar verses to be found in the Bible. If this is the word of God, surely it is eternal, not some fashionable sentiment tailored for the Bronze Age.,

Alternatively if the Old Testament is is superseded by the New, then why is so much affirmation granted to Deuteronomy's remarks about sexual behaviour? Why is the Bible right one minute and to be ignored the next? Who decides these things? Where does God give them the right to make such decisions? Is the right to cherry pick granted to believers in the Bible? Chapter and verse please? And if believers don't have the right to cherry pick the word of God, isn't all that selective interpretation tantamount to blasphemy according to your belief system?

Quite clearly, believers are seeking to establish for themselves a right to dismiss any part of the Bible that they may choose or prefer not to defend today, while retaining those parts that happen to suit their personal belief system, neuroses or phobias (or suppressed lusts and desires). So we are advised to dismiss the bits of the OT relating to rape or slavery (because they are under any circumstances indefensible) but we retain those sections that relate to say, homosexuality, because that suits a given believer's personal phobias and neuroses (or suppressed lusts and desires).

You are free to find such an approach intellectually and spiritually persuasive. Please don't assume that I am persuaded by such obvious intellectual gymnastics (to use as gracious a term as I can find for it). To me, it is transparent rationalisaton and classical cognitive dissonance.

If some parts of the OT no longer apply because they are time and place specific as per your argument, then they are irrelevant. Surely by precisely the same logic, the entire OT is irrelevant. You can't have it both ways.

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There are similar passenges in the Koran. They address a specific time and situation. What do you say to that?

Precisely the same as I say to such passages in the Bible. Why on earth would I regard them any differently?

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: Arturas
Therefore, the Bible protects her and makes you, the rapist, responsible for her, to her father and for her future welfare.

How does paying her father fifty pieces of silver have any bearing on 'protecting' the woman who's been raped? It's so clear that crystal is as mud in a whirlpool by comparison: With his daughter having been raped, the father's 'property' has been devalued. That section of the Bible is pure ugliness.

The rapist is the only person in the scenario who comes out ahead. On what basis are we to consider this piece of vicious misogyny to be anti-rape or "protective" of women?

The poor woman is a thing to be used, abused, then exchanged in a tawdry bit of commerce designed only to restore the 'rights' of the owner, and to reward the rapist with the object of his lust while condemning the woman to a lifetime of enslavement to her rapist. That the woman is a human being doesn't even enter the equation at any point.

I admire your restraint in describing it as merely "pure ugliness". To me it is a lot more than merely aesthetically outrageous.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: Arturas
Therefore, the Bible protects her and makes you, the rapist, responsible for her, to her father and for her future welfare.

How does paying her father fifty pieces of silver have any bearing on 'protecting' the woman who's been raped? It's so clear that crystal is as mud in a whirlpool by comparison: With his daughter having been raped, the father's 'property' has been devalued. That section of the Bible is pure ugliness.

The rapist is the only person in the scenario who comes out ahead. On what basis are we to consider this piece of vicious misogyny to be anti-rape or "protective" of women?

The poor woman is a thing to be used, abused, then exchanged in a tawdry bit of commerce designed only to restore the 'rights' of the owner, and to reward the rapist with the object of his lust while condemning the woman to a lifetime of enslavement to her rapist. That the woman is a human being doesn't even enter the equation at any point.

I admire your restraint in describing it as merely "pure ugliness". To me it is a lot more than merely aesthetically outrageous.

Fair enough. "A load of hideous, fucked up bollocks written by a savage". Will that do?

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ORIGINAL: xssve

And since you're a professed lesbian, we're gonna have to think about stoning you - 'cept I think you're already stoned.

On glue, if I'm any judge of it.

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Maybe he lacks your judgement of which glue is the good shit?

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Actually, while we have histrionic idiots on here claiming that a few arrests of people who may be plants discredits the whole of the OWS bunch, there's no earthly reason why this twat can't be similarly treated as an avatar for the whole of the tea party