RE: The myth of endless economic growth (Full Version)

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Edwynn -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/25/2012 10:30:54 PM)

I'll repeat this again, however much annoyance some may find in it:

Mankind does not stand still, it's just not in our nature.

Were we making everything out of wood as we did 20,000- 60,000 years ago, we'd be deforested by now. We might further ourselves were we to move beyond steel, but perhaps the current emphasis on recycling is teaching us something in the interim.

We are not currently putting as much effort to materials science and research as we should, nor greater efficiency, no question. But again, speak to your politicians about this, and quit blaming what you otherwise do not understand, nor apparently any inclination to understand.











xssve -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 12:10:29 AM)

Nah, Malthus was right - Malthusian corrections are happening all the it's just not across the board because humans are not a single population - we're myriad subpopulations largely confined to specific geographic areas: Malthus is alive and dwell in the Sudan, the Argentinian slums, and a thousand other places.

Clearly MM is all about the stock market now, which he thinks is stable based on past performance, but all the rules have changed, hell I have about 60K in stocks and bonds I'm going to have to figure out what to do with - they're only worth what the Chinese are willing to pay for them, in the future, and they don't call them inscrutable for nothing, they have us by the fucking balls, and from Kravis to Bush, we've handed those to 'em in the name of short term stock returns.

How is 'ol Kravis doing these days anyway? Lol.

Reagan did the same with the Japanese, and it turned out they couldn't hang - god luck for us, but then they need us for military protection from... the Chinese! The Chinese aren't the Japanese, whole different ballgame.

And it's that same short term thinking for the sake of stock returns that sold all our manufacturing capacity to China in the first place, that overplants every available arable acre to the edge of exhaustion, and keeps it marginally fertile only with intensive application of chemical fertilizers, at enormous cost in fossil fuels, and nitrogen runoff into our equally over harvested fisheries.

And even with the Fed, the IMF and the WTO hamstringing every other emerging agricultural economy in the world, the current accounts deficit slides deeper into the Red every minute.

Anyway, growth. I'm actually a good example, I can tread water here indefinitely, but I'm up against the margin - all I can do is maintain what I've got and at least I won't starve - I could double my income, but I'd have to triple my debt to do it, and it's double or nothing - if I gamble and win, I double my income, if I lose, miss one payment, I lose it all.

And in this case it all sort of depends on what happens in the macroeconomy - if the economy goes back into recession, I don't have the cash reserves to wait it out another five years - the smart thing to do is sit tight.

But to return to that, it's all a fucking gamble, anybody says different is full of shit - the only difference is that there are calculated risks and uncalculated ones, but an a calculated risk is still a gamble, you cannot control all the variables - a big oil shock right now could change all the underlying assumptions overnight - as it is, I could weather that.

I'm just not felling lucky at the moment, and the complete lack of any consensus on economic policies for which there is ample history and predictable outcomes, is highly disturbing to me, there really ought to be no debate on this - the details maybe, not the basics.

I think I'll just keep on in the lack of style to which I've become accustomed, I got other irons in the fire, plans B thorough ZZ, lol.

And back to Malthus, it's always about the margins: Malthus just got the margins wrong, there is a finite quantity of arable land, a population point below which a population of organisms (aquatic or otherwise) cannot recover - the underlying assumptions are basic biology - if you hunt you see it all the time: wet year, the deer multiply - and so do the predators, get long cold winter following, and all that extra population is "magically" gone come spring.

It's gods will, no? Lol.




MrBukani -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 12:21:06 AM)

You are forgetting one thing,
It doesnt all have to do with depleting natural recources.
Think!

There are other reasons why economic growth might stagnate.




MrBukani -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 12:27:41 AM)

I have been telling about this for about 10 years now and people were no noooooooooo.

Anyway I am not just gonna say it, because what I think is that a lot of people dont really think creative. Even the really smart cookies. I do have a lot of respect for them. But you know what professors are like, a bit one track minded sometimes.

To give you one hint what was one of the biggest reasons of the economic boost in the late nineties.

I will check in later.




Real0ne -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 12:34:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Let's hope that works out for you.

Best wishes.


smooth!

[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/ducking.jpg[/image]

the point




Real0ne -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 12:37:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

I'll repeat this again, however much annoyance some may find in it:

Mankind does not stand still, it's just not in our nature.

Were we making everything out of wood as we did 20,000- 60,000 years ago, we'd be deforested by now. We might further ourselves were we to move beyond steel, but perhaps the current emphasis on recycling is teaching us something in the interim.

We are not currently putting as much effort to materials science and research as we should, nor greater efficiency, no question. But again, speak to your politicians about this, and quit blaming what you otherwise do not understand, nor apparently any inclination to understand.



well thats what happens when man is to stoopid to plant seeds or manage resources




xssve -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 1:03:33 AM)

China's labor market has tightened up, which might be good news for US industry, although not so much for consumers - it means they aren't pulling way as fast as they were, increasing the chances of capital investment in American businesses.

http://www.livetradingnews.com/li%E2%80%89%E2%80%89fung-hkg494-on-china-manufacturing-costs-37743.htm

There's your CPI inflation, RO.

The direction of growth here is definitely value added, conservation - it just can't go any other direction, the oil glass is half empty, ANWAR, tar sands, whatever, but it does take increasing levels of investment to make marginal gains. Lot's of capital sitting around, I still think banks are wary of a wave of LBO's, they are the fattest targets right now, and there's still some big fucking sharks in the pool, it has a chilling effect on any risk taking.




Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 4:14:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Let's hope that works out for you.

Best wishes.


smooth!

the point

The point is that after all the ranting, you're still in the same space, creating mental prisons built of all the reasons you can't do anything about it.

How's that working out for you?

I've never been good at the victim thing.




Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 4:34:32 AM)

quote:

Lots of capital sitting around, I still think banks are wary


Not just banks--businesses are sitting on mountains of cash as well.

a) continued uncertainty in the credit market after the mortgage derivatives mess
b) uncertainty about the political direction in the face of changing health care regulations
c) very low interest rates making the opportunity cost of hoarding cash unusually low

In the meantime, productivity has soared, since business is hesitant to hire new labor in such a climate.

So what to do? People need to make a shift themselves. For decades, we've been a society where you found a good job with a big company and worked there for life. That's been over for quite some time now, with people changing careers 6-8 times on average in a lifetime. Yet, they're still acting as if in the old model, just when they could/should be taking control as the entrepreneurs they really are now, and because of this old thinking, are still subjects to their masters in industry and policy, waiting for them to provide, instead of building their own lives.

When people finally do that, typically income soars. Why? Mostly, they are no longer holding themselves back.

Here are two of my favorites, things you just wouldn't have imagined, both now long standing successful enterprises with 1000s of happy clients:

http://bigdreamprogram.com/
http://marketingforhippies.com/

But the same is true for any type of business--a bakery that caters to hikers and their dogs. A West Coast magazine that's like the New Yorker for dog owners. A Camera shop that partners with manufacturers to teach inner city kids photography and sells their work. All kinds of interesting and practical ideas, once we break out of the bonds of "how it's supposed to work."

Look at how many extremely successful businesses are run by a college student in a dorm room. Why? They've nothing to lose, so they more readily follow "crazy" ideas.

Pick up Tim Ferriss' "The Four Hour Work Week." It will change your view of how to make an income--and how hard it is...or rather, isn't.




MrBukani -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 4:35:37 AM)

Soon internet and tv will be integrated.
We will all have flatsquares, nice cars etc.
We will all have ledlighting in our houses.
on and on and on.

The buck will stop somewhere with endless gowth IMO.
And we cant keep overpopulating untill we can escape the third rock from the sun.
Whats the use of having a car with 2000 HP that drives 600 km per hour.

computers will be total filmstudios soon.

But I am sure there is somebody who wants to debunk this.
Good luck.

PS just look at mobile phones, That was the boost I was talkin about.
electronics.




Edwynn -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 5:41:43 AM)


Who says that population will increase forever?

The evidence shows that more developed countries slow down population growth. I am not enamored of the current situation of everybody walking around with earbuds and texting at every waking moment, but I take heart in the inevitable population decline by that process. There is hope in hopelessness sometimes.

Nobody has the waste of time to debunk your issue, especially as you make plain that you have no intention of understanding what others have gone to great trouble to learn and explain.

Your wanking is the paramount issue here, and I'll stand far away from that, so you just go right ahead then.





MrBukani -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 6:04:34 AM)

Its nice to see you speak for everybody.[:D]
Why bother replying to me then and giving your reasons.
Yo funny
BTW
You forgot about the third world.
And in what sentence did I make it plain that I have no intention of understanding or learning.
For real that was a rich post, thanks, I love it.

One more add
Who said the population WILL increase forever?




tweakabelle -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 6:21:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Talk about losin' the plot... [:D]

Yup. Some things are wasted on some people.




Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 6:24:42 AM)

quote:

Who says that population will increase forever?

The evidence shows that more developed countries slow down population growth.


Well, actually, Edwynn is right, Bukani. As third world countries develop, birth rates drop.




xssve -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 6:47:52 AM)

Which I mentioned back in post 96.

Indeed, some degree of global prosperity would solve a lot of problems - and create new ones - once you unleash that genii of narcissism, it's very hard to stuff back in the bottle - we've been supporting tin pot dictators who keep their people in poverty for decades, Saudi Arabia has enormous wealth from their Oil, but Iraq made more progress in modernizing it's population with a great deal less.

Money is only part of the equation, a basic respect for human life, corny as that might sound to troglocon, is part of the equation - it's not only that prosperity slows down the birthrate, stress speeds it up, it might even be a specific stress such as malnutrition, or a social stressor like perception of inequality - some evolutionary trigger stressor, associated with high rates of childhood mortality, and/or territorial/resource conflicts.

Condom wouldn't hurt either - just because those women are having all those kids, doesn't mean it was their choice...




MrBukani -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 6:51:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Who says that population will increase forever?

The evidence shows that more developed countries slow down population growth.


Well, actually, Edwynn is right, Bukani. As third world countries develop, birth rates drop.

I never claimed that.
And who is to say they wont rise again in the future.
For example look at religious people in developed countries.
Religion is rising again.
And since a lot of them dont like birthcontrol there is many families with 5 or more kids again.
Kids are expensive, what if life becomes cheaper. And wealth rises.
Its all speculation.
Just like I show you there is more to growth in economics then the population and resource availability.
IMO the bickering just leads to tunnelvision.




Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 6:55:17 AM)

quote:

Its all speculation.


My summation of your post exactly, yes. Agreed.




MrBukani -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 7:02:02 AM)

Cool and Ed you can play the willy wanka chocrock facts any time, I never report.
I welcome the insults.




Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 7:50:48 AM)

Insult? You have a list of speculations. It is what it is.





MrBukani -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/26/2012 8:06:27 AM)

I said it to Ed with his wanking comment.
Not you MM
Problem is with a lotta posts for me also is what people mean exactly.
Sometimes it is meant to be open to intepretation sometimes it just happens.
It will be more clear if you say my speculation is farfetched in comparison to a specific other.
Thats why I just replied cool to you.
I can read it how I want to.
What I mean with wealth and low birthrates is that it is only a spec of time in history yet.
And contraception plays a big part in it.
There has been examples in history hundreds of years ago where there was wealth also and the catholic church advised to have many kids.
Like my father and mother come from a big family both.
So its all speculation based on a very short amount of time that people really want less children.
If it was up to me I would like a real big family also but I choose not to because of overpopulation.
And I think there is loads of people like me.




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