RE: The myth of endless economic growth (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message

MrBukani -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 4:40:00 PM)

Not that anybody cares but im gonna boost the economy and have a drink downtown, I do have a life you know?[:D]



Real0ne -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 4:48:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

At some point, demand out paces resources, then economic growth cannot happen.

Endless economic growth is impossible, sooner or later you run out.


Again, you're confusing short term and long term economics.

As demand rises, it pushes up prices along the supply curve, inducing greater supply (people will complain suppliers are gouging them, but the increase is actually demand driven). But at the same time, those higher prices will dampen demand, as fewer people are able and willing to consume at that price. Resources don't run out; demand peaks at some point.

Meanwhile, as prices rise, so does incentive to produce and to seek for purchase alternatives. Those alternatives create entirely new markets--economic growth.


prices rise as a result of inflation. I had to drag that out of yer ass kicking and screaming, but dragged it out of yer ass nonetheless.

its a simple formula.

as money is devalued prices rise, it is robbery because it lowers peoples wages.

and your books are part of the problem not the solution.



Real0ne -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 4:51:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Adding value means taking Xerox's 10 year old mouse, a television, and a simple operating system, hooking them together in your garage and calling it a personal computer. That's all Apple did--they invented nothing at that point, but they added value.

So value then in your opinion is where the latest fad is pointed.


1976 isn't exactly "the lastest fad."

The personal computer has fantastically added value. I'm doing work and searches and tasks inconceivable in 1976, and doing them faster and at a distance in real time. Major increase in personal productivity. I'm also able to "work in the city" will physically in the country, saving considerable money and adding the to quality of my life (not to mention reducing travel time). I have clients from all over the world. My regular MasterMind group, which meets every two weeks by video conference, is international. And all this costs peanuts.

Value added.


and how much value is it now that everyone has one? LOL

diminishing returns

changing markets dont create economic growth



Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 4:52:44 PM)

quote:

prices rise as a result of inflation.


Aggregate prices rise as a result of inflation, not the prices in individual markets.

Aggregate prices can also rise as a result of increased aggregate demand or decreased aggregate supply.



epiphiny43 -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 4:53:12 PM)

Technology 'adds value' and changes basic paradigms. But even the most doctrinaire capitalist economic evangelist has to have some ability to comprehend basic mathematics. NO natural system limited to a single celestial body, particularly THE known one supporting water based biology, can sustain geometric growth curves. This is independent of the growth rate. In reality all such systems either asymptotically approach some limit or in all actually known cases, populations crash and almost always, the base carrying capacity of the system is impacted, often for extended periods. Wall Street and Silicon Valley change nothing about critical resources, 'living room', soil fertility, water resources, the heat budget of any less that perfectly efficient energy system (See: 3 Laws of Thermodynamics) on a finite planet, the immaturity of all known technologies resulting in soil, water and air degradation precisely as population pressures and life quality/living standard expectations try to blow the roof off existing systems and ecologies.
It certainly doesn't look like the heavily stressed 1st and 2nd world economies that now can't sustain basic infrastructure nor fund adequate health care for aging populations will find the resources to move added population and most manufacturing off-planet in the foreseeable future, so that option seems closed. Even with Free lift to orbit, the materials needed to make a difference impoverish the planet. The actual pollution of the atmosphere of any current lift capability ruins the biosphere or non-chemical energy over heats it.
As most don't believe what hasn't happened yet in their life, can't, so no need re-examining basic assumptions and goals. The only question is which of the 4 Horsemen will ride. I'm betting on all 4.
Imaginable future technologies may change this but we have to get through the squeeze points a geometrically expanding population force well before that.



Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 4:54:47 PM)

quote:

and how much value is it now that everyone has one? LOL


Of more value than ever. It's more productive and more useful. That's what value is.

You are confusing price with value.



Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 4:56:03 PM)

quote:

Technology 'adds value' and changes basic paradigms. But even the most doctrinaire capitalist economic evangelist has to have some ability to comprehend basic mathematics. NO natural system limited to a single celestial body, particularly THE known one supporting water based biology, can sustain geometric growth curves.


Technology doesn't always add value. But beyond that, again, you are looking at a short term model as if it were long term reality. It isn't.



Real0ne -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 5:01:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

prices rise as a result of inflation.


Aggregate prices rise as a result of inflation, not the prices in individual markets.

Aggregate prices can also rise as a result of increased aggregate demand or decreased aggregate supply.



and farts stink

nice contradiction!

I wont be buying your book LMFAO



Real0ne -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 5:05:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

and how much value is it now that everyone has one? LOL


Of more value than ever. It's more productive and more useful. That's what value is.

You are confusing price with value.




On the contrary value goes down ANY time a machine can replace a body.

that is more of your bolony.

people actually buy your book do they?

Value is an arbitrary gubafia wealth measurement used for taxes.

you are just confused!



Real0ne -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 5:24:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ncreases 10% over 10 years how much does the economy need to grow to support them?

now that the gubafia suckered everyone into 401k's and the bably boomers start dying off say 20% over the next 20 years how much does the economy need to grow to support that?

The first is already answered.

The second shows a misunderstanding of finance. First, the economy doesn't have to grow for my stock/bond investments to grow, because even if share values are down, I own many, many more shares.

HUH? I suppose you can go on cnbc and pump n dump, otherwise thats loonacy!

(Additionally, my 403(b) includes a 10% annual contribution from my employers, so that's just free money, pretax; not everyone gets that, of course).
Please dont tell me you wrote a fucking book.

Second, baby boomers will be drawing on their savings in retirement; the economy doesn't have to grow at all to support that. In fact, that spending will increase C, aiding the economy.

sure it does in the terms you present it since the baby boomers spending money are creating jobs LOL Do you ever read what you type?

There's also this continuing myth that there's this one time bubble of older baby boomers that we've can't support from below. Nonsense. Baby boomers in turn had children, and grand children--it's why the population of the U.S. is three times what it was when I was a child.


So you are 100 years old then huh. There is a limit to how much bullshit people can handle you know.



Real0ne -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 5:27:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If there's no population growth, then the scarcity problem the OP outlines doesn't exist--more for everyone. Not an increase in production, but de facto the same thing.


If there is population growth there will be economic growth per your earlier comments. Now if there is no population growth there will be no scarcity problem. Seems like the best of all possible worlds. It works out well either way. But if there is no population growth, how can there be economic growth [your earlier premise] ?

But let's deal with reality. Population growth is slowing in some nations and exploding in other parts of the world, accompanied by an increase in poverty, a lack of capital, and an increase in insurgency. The world's population is growing but not the world's wealth. How does that reality fit into your equation?

I'm trying really hard to see what you've written and take it as anything less than dense.

The OP was worried with population growth, economic growth was unsustainable.
Yet if population doesn't grow, you now have the same concern?

Geez. If we need 100 million apples, but then only need 50 million, how is this a problem?

Just how many apples can people eat?

You're looking for an argument. A stupid argument. Look elsewhere. This is just silly.



ah huh, you just dodged his very legitimate argument because it does not fit in trougherville.



Real0ne -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 5:33:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Technology 'adds value' and changes basic paradigms. But even the most doctrinaire capitalist economic evangelist has to have some ability to comprehend basic mathematics. NO natural system limited to a single celestial body, particularly THE known one supporting water based biology, can sustain geometric growth curves.


Technology doesn't always add value. But beyond that, again, you are looking at a short term model as if it were long term reality. It isn't.



it may add very short term productivity at least until everyone else on the block has the same technology.

Then inflation artificially forces prices after the boys at the top move their goods into safe havens while the ordinary people foot that bill and bail them out when they fuckup with bad bets.

How many computers can a starving world eat?

After all the constitution says they can only use gold as money, so they hired a private fucking contractor to get around the constitution and sell us debt money that they can scrape off the top with a transaction tax for every trade made between 2 partys.

I should write a book.








DesideriScuri -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 7:13:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
We need less words and more action
We need less material and more recycling.
We need MODERATION............ no not you videoadminblabla
I mean MODERATION in want want want.


MrBukani, we actually do want the same end results. We just want to get there by different modes.

But, in this instance, we are practically conjoined twins.



MrBukani -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 7:57:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
We need less words and more action
We need less material and more recycling.
We need MODERATION............ no not you videoadminblabla
I mean MODERATION in want want want.


MrBukani, we actually do want the same end results. We just want to get there by different modes.

But, in this instance, we are practically conjoined twins.

Good Im tired of fighting over models.
I just want a better world for my future kids.
If we can agree I am a good ally.
or confederate or whatever you call it.



Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 8:27:43 PM)

quote:

The second shows a misunderstanding of finance. First, the economy doesn't have to grow for my stock/bond investments to grow, because even if share values are down, I own many, many more shares.

HUH? I suppose you can go on cnbc and pump n dump, otherwise thats loonacy!


OK. Let's start here. It's pretty basic stuff.

I buy 100 shares at $10 each -- $1,000.
then each quarter I earn a 2% dividend and reinvest it.
1st quarter ends--I earn $20, which buys two shares. I now have 102 shares.
2nd quarter ends--I earn $20.40, which buys 2.04 shares; I now have 104.04 shares.
And so forth. Ten years later, I have $2,208.04 -- 220.8039664 shares at $10 a share.

If the share price falls to $9, I still have $1,987.24
$8 -- $1,766.43
$7 -- $1,545.63
$6 -- $1,324.82
$5 -- $1,104.02

Even at HALF the share price, I'm ahead (yes, before considering taxes and inflation).

Now, realistically, the share price is going to fluctuate during this decade. I'll be buying fewer shares with my dividend when the price is high, more when the price is low. That's going to add MORE shares at lower cost than at higher cost, working to a capital gain as well. (Dollar cost averaging).




MrBukani -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 8:29:42 PM)

Its not shares that fucked up the market its futures.
Speculating and manipulating.



Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 8:31:09 PM)

quote:

quote:

Second, baby boomers will be drawing on their savings in retirement; the economy doesn't have to grow at all to support that. In fact, that spending will increase C, aiding the economy.


sure it does in the terms you present it since the baby boomers spending money are creating jobs LOL Do you ever read what you type?


Yup...i.e., aiding the economy at existing growth levels.



Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 8:32:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Its not shares that fucked up the market its futures.
Speculating and manipulating.

You're talking about commodities markets, not the stock market.



Yachtie -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 8:37:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Even at HALF the share price, I'm ahead (yes, before considering taxes and inflation).

Now, realistically, the share price is going to fluctuate during this decade. I'll be buying fewer shares with my dividend when the price is high, more when the price is low. That's going to add MORE shares at lower cost than at higher cost, working to a capital gain as well. (Dollar cost averaging).




In the real world the FED attempts to maintain a 2% inflation rate (dollar value drops). Over 10 years what would that do to your hypothetical stock value?



Musicmystery -> RE: The myth of endless economic growth (3/24/2012 8:38:26 PM)

I used 8%, an average return. Inflation would cut that to 6%.



Page: <<   < prev  5 6 [7] 8 9   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875