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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 2:04:56 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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For every home schooled child who makes headlines by being accepted into Harvard, I would bet there are 50 home schooled children whose parents are illiterate dumb asses and couldn't teach a dog to sit, let alone educate a child.  Still, I have met some very successful home schoolers, I just don't believe for a minute that this is the norm.

The people who homeschool specifically so their kids don't have contact with the big, bad atheist world are especially scary, and I especially feel for their daughters.  Who would want to be told from birth that their sole role in life was to be a household drudge for some man and a houseful of children?  I remember being told that in Sunday school when I was growing up.  Thank god I didn't listen.




< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 3/22/2012 2:15:12 PM >


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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 2:19:49 PM   
FelineFae


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quote:

// only be content if home-schooling will be publically acclaimed as the only acceptable way to educate a child - and that all public and private schools be banned. //


I fear I missed where it was mentioned that those in favour of home-based education think that is " the only acceptable way to educate a child " .

Personally, I know many people that should never teach. For that matter, I know several people that should not breed, as I see it.

Sadly, it's the people that shouldn't be homeschooling that make the headlines, because that's how the news works. It is the same with public schools, you only hear about them when a students kills a classmate or a teacher molests a student. Basing your opinion from the press is not going to give you an acurate view.

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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 2:45:52 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

No - for them it's better to allow, without any governmental oversight, inadequate home-schooling by some religious zealots that produces illiterate social misfits than for any American child to attend a public or a private school or for any government oversight over home-schooling.


Well, that post was so riddled with ad hominems and straw men it hardly seems worth the effort to respond.

It's not that homeschooling parents who are (we hope) doing a good job of it are ignoring or defending the failures of one segment of the population. It's that articles and debates like this place the blame on homeschooling as the source of illiteracy when the reality is that just as many children in the public school system are also illiterate. Government regulation will not solve the problem of illiteracy in homeschooled children since the government is doing a crap job of ensuring literacy in public education.

I find it interesting that no one is criticizing the Amish, who not only do not use public schools, but have no formal education past 8th grade. The criticism seems to be limited to parents who are otherwise mainstream. I wonder if those who believe greater government oversight would be beneficial also believe the government should oversee Amish schools. If not, I'm curious what the difference is.


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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 2:48:38 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineFae


Personally, I know many people that should never teach. For that matter, I know several people that should not breed, as I see it.


I agree, I think we all know those people. Years of two children in the public school system of Chgo (thankfully a magnet school) taught me there are teachers who should not be in charge of kids on any level. There is good and bad everywhere, and if we could just point a finger and say "It's the bad home schoolers who are the issue," our education problems would be easily solved.

My son is LD, and I wish I would have home schooled him the first few years of grammar school. I think he would have gotten a much better education that was tailored to his specific learning deficits, and that that kind of good early foundation would have helped him throughout his schooling.

I do think that by a certain age, kids need to be with other kids so they can be properly socialize, mainly b/c in our society, this is what kids do. And there just is no good way to replicate that outside of actual school attendance.

JMO, YMMV




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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 2:52:10 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineFae

Do we need to hold up the sacasm-flag for your sake ?

You do not need to do anything at all....for my sake.

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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 2:58:33 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan



I find it interesting that no one is criticizing the Amish, who not only do not use public schools, but have no formal education past 8th grade. The criticism seems to be limited to parents who are otherwise mainstream. I wonder if those who believe greater government oversight would be beneficial also believe the government should oversee Amish schools. If not, I'm curious what the difference is.[/color][/size][/font]



ACTUALLY........people did criticize the Amish, to the point where they now MUST comply with state law, here in Iowa. Iowa law no long allows kids to quite school after 8th grade.

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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 3:00:35 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Well once you accept the principal that parents can do this,how do you assert that the state has a right to any oversight ? And I am just asking Kalik,I'm not trying to be snarky


I'll let FD answer that:

quote:

Clearly you should have nothing to fear from government oversight if your home-schooled children are doing so well academically and socially.

One of the reasons we need enforcement of laws on home-schooling is to seperate people like yourself from people like the home-schooling women and the parents of the formerly home-schooled women interviewed - home-schooling parents whose home-schooled children are, at best, social misfits and, at worst, illiterate social misfits.

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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 3:16:42 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

ACTUALLY........people did criticize the Amish, to the point where they now MUST comply with state law, here in Iowa. Iowa law no long allows kids to quite school after 8th grade.


That's interesting since SCOTUS ruled that the Amish are exempt from those laws. That ruling is rather old, though, so it may have been overturned by now. AFAIK, here in Missouri there is no formal Amish education beyond 8th grade.


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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 3:19:33 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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How interesting.  And you consider that a good thing?
quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse



That's interesting since SCOTUS ruled that the Amish are exempt from those laws. That ruling is rather old, though, so it may have been overturned by now. AFAIK, here in Missouri there is no formal Amish education beyond 8th grade.



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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 3:24:41 PM   
kalikshama


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I can't find anything more recent than 1972

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder#Legacy_of_the_Court.27s_decision

"Since Wisconsin v. Yoder, all states must grant the Old Order Amish the right to establish their own schools (should they choose) or to withdraw from public institutions after completing eighth grade. In some communities Amish parents have continued to send their children to public elementary schools even after Wisconsin v. Yoder. In most places tensions eased considerably after the Supreme Court ruling, although certain difficulties remained for those Amish living in Nebraska." [3]

http://amishamerica.com/iowa-amish/

Amish school conflict in Iowa

In the mid-1960s, Amish living in Buchanan County found themselves in the middle of a conflict between two rival school districts who were in the course of merging. Locals from the smaller district opposed the merger.

Amish themselves wished to be included in an area of the new district where one-room schools would still be operated. At the time Amish had also come under pressure for failing to comply with increasingly stringent teacher certification standards. The Amish were convinced by the school superintendent to vote in a local referendum in favor of merging, on promise of support for keeping one-room schools.

The Amish vote, which helped the merger measure pass, angered the minority opposition. Authorities eventually took action against the Amish, who had become involved as “unwitting pawns”, as John A. Hostetler describes them, in the larger intra-communal conflict. Amish schools were visited by state inspectors and fines levied against the Amish for employing uncertified teachers (Amish Society, John A. Hostetler, pp. 264-266).

The culmination of the Amish share in this dispute came when the Oelwein school bus arrived to transport Amish children to a new consolidated school, an action which officials expected would solve the problem. A famous photo of the incident shows Amish children scattering into nearby cornfields to avoid the forced bussing.

Amish scholar John Hostetler reports that on November 19, 1965, “school authorities forced their way into a private Amish school in order to compel the children to board a bus to take them to the consolidated town school. The press got wind of impending events and recorded the scene as frightened youngsters ran for cover in nearby cornfields and sobbing mothers and fathers were arrested for noncompliance with an Iowa school law” (Amish Society, John A. Hostetler, p. 264).

The conflict became the subject of worldwide attention, and soon after, the Iowa governor became involved in the dispute, arranging a moratorium of sorts. Outsiders stepped in to pay fines which had been levied against the Amish.

The National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom was organized by sympathetic outsiders at this time as well, and turned its attention to the issue of Amish schooling. The conflict took on a national scope with questions of religious liberty coming under discussion.

Eventually, Iowa’s state legislature changed school code to allow for religious exemptions from state school standards (Amish Society, Hostetler, pp. 267-268). The Buchanan County conflict was a key event on the road to the Wisconsin v. Yoder Supreme Court decision of 1972 which granted Amish and other groups religious exemption from state-mandated schooling standards.




< Message edited by kalikshama -- 3/22/2012 3:30:46 PM >

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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 3:28:23 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

How interesting.  And you consider that a good thing?


It's their belief and the U.S. Constitution says they have the right to practice their religion in any way they see fit. No one has the right to interfere in that, regardless of personal opinion. The Amish where my parents live are all very polite and they're literate enough to shop at the local grocery and hardware stores. That's more than can be said for some public school students.

Now if you want to discuss my views on the value of religion itself, that's an entirely different thread.


Formatting is not my friend today.



< Message edited by SylvereApLeanan -- 3/22/2012 3:30:23 PM >


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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 4:33:38 PM   
DomKen


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This blog, one of my faves BTW, is by a woman who grew up in the Quiverful movement and has now left it. Her perspectve on homeschooling is quite enlightening.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/category/education/homeschool

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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 4:52:36 PM   
DaddySatyr


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Yes! We should keep people from practicing their religion (teaching it to their children). How else can we stem the tide of these wrong-thinking blights on our society.

Didn't nazi Germany do something similar (forbid the teaching of Judaeism)?



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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 4:55:46 PM   
outhere69


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This is FR to the OP:

Here's something excerpted from Knowles' study in 1993 (which was conducted via mail surveys, not the most reliable way to go):

“I have strong personal reservations about the pedagogy practiced by more conservative practitioners of home schooling, who subject children to rigorous, routinized curricula and an often bigoted, limited perspective on life,” he concludes. “I question to what extent some children, whose parents have powerful ideological perspectives grounded in a right-wing, fundamentalist world view, are being blindered by being taught at home.

“But at the same time, this survey and the life history accounts that arose out of it clearly show that, done in an enlightened, broad-minded way, with plenty of flexibility in curriculum and methods, home schooling can be a positive experience for children with benefits that last for many years.”

That's ironic, since the HSLDA is a fundamentalist/evangelical organization.

Now, as for the stats in the OP, I call bullshit on them because the public school figures are 50% across the board in the first comparison. In the other stats, the homeschoolers are all 86-89%. (The source article states that they used 15 test systems to develop the stats, and that kind of meta-analysis is damn tricky. The researcher's not a statistics dude.)

The article also reference a progress report issued by the National Home Education Research Institute. Every damn article by them, including bibliographies is subscription only. They reference a singe researcher, and additional articles are from fundamentalist/evangelical colleges and churches.

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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 5:00:05 PM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
This blog, one of my faves BTW, is by a woman who grew up in the Quiverful movement and has now left it. Her perspectve on homeschooling is quite enlightening.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/category/education/homeschool

Thanks for posting this link - because it focuses on the Home-schoolers mentioned in the article I cited in the OP and the home-schoolers I have been referring to.

Take a moment to check the trailer of a film popular with this segment of the home-schooling movement:

Indoctrination The Movie

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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 5:02:02 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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This quote from that site kind of turned my stomach:'

A lot of men are leaving their wives for younger women because they yearn for attention from younger women. And God gave them a daughter who can give them that. - Voddie Baucham*

Say WHAT?
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This blog, one of my faves BTW, is by a woman who grew up in the Quiverful movement and has now left it. Her perspectve on homeschooling is quite enlightening.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/category/education/homeschool


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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 5:12:12 PM   
Fightdirecto


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"But What About Socialization?

quote:

This is probably the most common question homeschoolers get. As a child, I was well schooled in how to reply to it. “Do you have any idea how many friends I have?” “Segregating children by age group is not a natural form of socialization.” “Socialization is just a code word for peer pressure.”

Today, I read blogs and articles by homeschoolers using these same arguments and insisting that socialization is no problem at all, and I want to scream. More than that, I want to bang my head against the wall.

You see, socialization matters. It is not a bogeyman or a silly question. It is important. And, it is an issue about which I am very passionate.

I arrived at college after being homeschooled through high school. I had had plenty of friends across a variety of age groups. I had been in homeschool co-ops and clubs, including a speech club. I had gone to political events and had spoken with reporters. I was articulate, well spoken, and outgoing. I thought I was socialized. I wasn’t.

The truth is, my first year of college was extremely painful. I had no idea how to interact with people who were different from me. I had no idea how to take criticism. I had no idea how to interact with those around me. I had no idea how to handle myself around large groups of people, or how to act in the ordinary social situations that come up at a large school. I had no idea how to handle someone not liking me. I had no idea how to function in a diverse society. I was incredibly awkward and felt extremely lost, and I cried more than you want to know.

You see, socialization is not about being able to carry on a sentence. Socialization isn’t about being able to make a friend. Socialization is about interacting with people who are different from you. It’s about learning how to deal with the bully or the “mean girl.” It’s about learning how to handle having people not like you. It’s about feeling put down by cliques, but learning to deal with it and surviving. It’s about growing a tough skin. It’s about handling playground politics. It’s about being friends with people who disagree with you.

There is a second issue here too. Homeschooling made me into a cultural misfit. The things the girls I met in college talked about, I didn’t understand. The things they were excited about, I was ignorant of. I experienced – and still experience – a huge cultural disconnection. I’m not saying I wanted to conform or just be a clone of the girls I met in college, but I would have at least liked to understand what made them tick and to have been able to communicate with them on this level. As it was, I couldn’t. I didn’t understand their culture, I had no common experiences with them, I had no basis for communication or identification. I was an outsider looking in...

Interestingly, the people I met in college were not the mindless conformers I had been taught to expect coming out of public schools, not in the least. Rather, they were intelligent, confident, and independent. They made a lie of my parents’ claims that public schools are factories that turn children into robots. It’s simply not true. Public schools don’t rob children of their individuality or dumb them down. Socialization isn’t about enforced conformity or pushing children into molds or turning out robots. Indeed, the friends I made in college, every one of them public schooled, were – and continue to be – inspirations to me. They knew how to handle themselves and they understood how to interact with those around them. The were confident and comfortable, and I envied them.

I sometimes wonder if one reason so many homeschool parents cannot seem to understand the real meaning of the socialization question is that, having been socialized themselves, they cannot imagine what it would be like to not be. They don’t understand what it feels like to be a foreigner in your own country. They don’t understand what it feels like to not be able to fit in. They don’t understand what it’s like to be robbed of the ability to be normal because they have the ability to be normal. Parents who homeschool may choose to be different, but their children have no such choice.

Those who are homeschooling for other reasons other than “sheltering” their children don’t get a free pass here. While their children will likely have an easier time adjusting than I did, they will still almost certainly face many of the same problems. The socialization issue is not specific to homeschoolers who shelter their children, but is, rather, common to all homeschoolers. These other homeschoolers, like their more sheltered counterparts, will also not have to learn to handle playground politics and will certainly not have the common experiences of pep rallies or bad social studies teachers. There is some element of dealing with other people that they will miss and a piece of our common culture they will not experience. And while homeschool parents may not see these things as important, their children, like me, may disagree.


Am I arguing that no one should ever homeschool? Not necessarily. I don’t know every situation, and every family is different. I would not presume to speak for every family. What I am arguing is that parents who homeschool need to take the socialization question seriously rather than laughing it off...

Note: If you are a homeschooler and you dislike what you have read here, please don’t get all defensive. I am not trying to judge, simply to share my experiences. I was homeschooled. I have been there. I was not isolated or kept in a closet, I had plenty of friends and was involved in plenty of co-ops, but I was nevertheless not socialized, and I regret that. The fact is, socialization does matter. Rather than getting upset and defensive, please just take my perspective and opinion for what it is.


< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 3/22/2012 5:40:49 PM >


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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 5:40:43 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Yes! We should keep people from practicing their religion (teaching it to their children). How else can we stem the tide of these wrong-thinking blights on our society.

<godwin invocation deleted>

Did you read anywhere where she said even christian patriarchy/quiverful should be outlawed? And how precisely would better and more extensive monitoring of the homeschooled keep anyone from practicing their religion?

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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 6:53:01 PM   
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Outhere is making some excellent points. I am looking at the full report
http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray2009/2009_Ray_StudyFINAL.pdf
And my own mediocre going downhill fast clueless about statistical analysis and sampling noticed Figure 4.

90.2% of fathers had some college, and 92.0% of mothers. 66.7% of fathers had a Bachelor's or above; 62.5% of mothers.
According to the 2000 Census, only 26.1% of adult males had a Bachelors or higher; 22.9% of males had such. (1)

In 2003 there were 1,096,000 homeschool students; 843,000, or 76.9%, were white. (2) Whites comprised 75.1% of the population in 2000. (3) So it would seem that the % of home-schooled whites is very close to the % of whites in the general population, and therefore the % on non-whites is similarly equivalent.
HOWEVER, the number of white homeschooled students as a % of all white students is 2.7%. For black home-schooled students it's 1.3%; hispanic 0.7%, and other 3.0%. (2)

Anybody see what I'm doing? ☺ What I'm NOT doing is what the guy does in Fig. 5 (I first typed "Fog" which would be appropriate).
He is saying that there is no correlation between between education levels of parents and scores of H-s kids. That may be true. However, he aggregates all Public-s scores into one number. He does not compare P-s scores with the educational level of the parents. It's an invalid, and IMO deceptive, comparison. More telling is the fact that 54.2% of H-s students had only one parent in the labor force. (2) Families who can afford to have one parent stay at home are more likely to H-s children that 2 parent both in the labor force, 1 parent in the labor force, or no parent in the labor force.

In figure 6 he arbitrarily picks income levels. We do not know what the scores are for those who are below $25,000, which is roughly one standard deviation below the mean of $58,029 in 2006. (4) In fact, about 3/5 of all household income was below $34,738, which is right around where his LOWEST quartile cuts off. (5) He does not tell us how many of his sample are in the 1st quartile, nor does he tell us what percentage of respondents are in that range. His are numbers without meaningingful comparison to anything. He's not only cherry-picking, but he's invented his own scale which would appear (based on scores) to be an even distribution, but which bears no relation to any real world metric.

I could go on, but I think I've made a case that that "study" is less than rigorous, and that his statistics are, in general, biased, irrelevant, or misleading (a logical Fallacy called "Lying")

(1) http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/education/data/census/half-century/tables.html
(2) http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/TableDisplay.asp?TablePath=TablesHTML/table_2.asp
(3) http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-02.pdf
(4) http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/business/economy/26income.html
(5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States (US Census Bureau 2003 data)

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 3/22/2012 6:56:41 PM >


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RE: Home-schooled and illiterate - 3/22/2012 7:16:10 PM   
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~FR~

Now that everyone has greatly entertained themselves with the anti-home schooling wank party, you are welcome to tell us what a wonderful job conventional education is doing in the US.

Whatever you do, do not read anything by John C. Holt or John Taylor Gatto, two people with career in public education who saw what was going on and exposed the damage done by infliction of the educational paradigm upon kids. Gatto was NYC teacher of the year three years running, NY state teacher of the year in 1991. And no, I sure as heck do not align with Gatto's quasi-libertarian take on things generally, but unlike as in most public schools, I don't have to worry about him polluting my child's mind with ideology, because he is that honest and that intent on being directed by the child in his teaching (so-called 'child directed' educational process being a foundation for both Holt and Gatto). The results speak for themselves.

And pardon my lack of social skills, even with conventional school education (or as likely because of it), but I would point out that ~ 90% of the posters to this thread lack such essentials as basic comprehension, fundamental logic, how to put two triangles to make a square, inability to grasp the simplest point being made, and more than anything lack of the most basic manners and lack of any social graces as are shoved aside in deference to promotion of belligerence and bellicosity, and whatever else spews from their clumpfuck of a brain. Just going by what I see here.

Yeah, who would want to keep their child from that experience.

Sign my kid up today.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/22/2012 7:45:31 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 60
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