RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One

RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 8:56:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas sticking your nose into the people of Arizona's business "None of us are free..."

Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 8:57:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven When I have an operation, no matter what kind, I'll be damned if it'll be witnessed by anyone other than the operating staff. Anything else would violate HIPAA. Who the hell is that wacko to decide that an abortion will be viewed by complete strangers with no legitimate medical purpose? That's not a HIPPA issue since the participants in the video will have given their permission. Anyone can give anyone access to their Medical information if they so chose. HIPPA protects agains unauthorized disclosure not authorized disclosure, this is a free country after all. I have no clue why you would even bring HIPPA into this. I think a woman contemplating an abortion has a very legitimate medical reason to see what she will be getting into. I can think of no better reason.

Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:01:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When did the Citizens of Arizona become incompetent wards of the state requiring supervision? Never. They elected their Government to protect the common good. Their Govenment is doing what they elected them to do. This is good because the people of Arizona think it is good. This not bad just because you think so.

farglebargle -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:01:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas I think a woman contemplating an abortion has a very legitimate medical reason to see what she will be getting into. I can think of no better reason. I think a woman contemplating an abortion KNOWS what she is getting into and I think that it's incredibly patronizing for you to suggest otherwise. But it's right in line with the presumption that women are morons who can't handle their own healthcare decisions and need to be taken care of in their own best interests as wards of the state. Same old shit from people who just can't stand women being free and will do their damnedest to enslave them to their will.

farglebargle -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:03:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When did the Citizens of Arizona become incompetent wards of the state requiring supervision? Never. They elected their Government to protect the common good. Their Govenment is doing what they elected them to do. This is good because the people of Arizona think it is good. This not bad just because you think so. The People are superior, and Sovereign. Just because some legislators have crazy religious beliefs that they can promote using the taxpayer's dime, doesn't mean that the FREE PEOPLE need to obey them like slaves. You wanna hang this on Informed Consent? Where's the patient's RIGHT to deny consent to viewing the tape?

Zonie63 -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:06:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: playfulotter I am so glad I don't live in Arizona. Actually, Arizona isn't as bad as it might seem. We have a lot of nice scenic beauty and a favorable climate (although the desert can be a bit harsh at times). Sure, we have a dysfunctional state government, and the local governments are rife with corruption and nepotism. But Arizona politics can be entertaining at times, much like watching those old Roadrunner/Coyote cartoons. [image]http://home.roadrunner.com/~tuco/looney/acme/earth.jpg[/image]

ShibsStories -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:07:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven When I have an operation, no matter what kind, I'll be damned if it'll be witnessed by anyone other than the operating staff. Anything else would violate HIPAA. Who the hell is that wacko to decide that an abortion will be viewed by complete strangers with no legitimate medical purpose? That's not a HIPPA issue since the participants in the video will have given their permission. Anyone can give anyone access to their Medical information if they so chose. HIPPA protects agains unauthorized disclosure not authorized disclosure, this is a free country after all. I have no clue why you would even bring HIPPA into this. I think a woman contemplating an abortion has a very legitimate medical reason to see what she will be getting into. I can think of no better reason. It sounds a bit too much like the horrible pictures they show you in Drivers ED to try and scare you from drinking and driving. I have no desire to ever watch any surgery, I am not particularly squeamish, but blood and peoples insides are not things I wish to see. Many are squeamish though and forcing them to watch such things is a arm twisting intimidation tactic and nothing else. Term it however you want, and justify it however you want- but anyone with half a brain should be able to see the thinly veiled excuses for what they are. Edited because my damn laptop keeps hopping text around.

farglebargle -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:07:39 PM)
Doctor: "Nurse, start the DVD...." Patient: I don't want to watch the DVD. Doctor: You have to watch the DVD. Nurse, strap her down so she doesn't hurt herself. Then start the DVD Patient: Let me out of here! Take these straps off... Nurse: It's for your own good, honey. If you weren't so feeble minded you'd understand that you're just not competent to direct your own healthcare decisions...

DarkSteven -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:14:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven When I have an operation, no matter what kind, I'll be damned if it'll be witnessed by anyone other than the operating staff. Anything else would violate HIPAA. Who the hell is that wacko to decide that an abortion will be viewed by complete strangers with no legitimate medical purpose? That's not a HIPPA issue since the participants in the video will have given their permission. Anyone can give anyone access to their Medical information if they so chose. HIPPA protects agains unauthorized disclosure not authorized disclosure, this is a free country after all. I have no clue why you would even bring HIPPA into this. I think a woman contemplating an abortion has a very legitimate medical reason to see what she will be getting into. I can think of no better reason. Arturas, my guess on reading the article was that the woman would be required to witness a live abortion. Yours was that a video would suffice. I've reread the article and it doesn't specify. My statement regarding HIPAA violation is that my medical history is private, including what operations I've had. You are correct that, if this is done in a filmed video made with the participants' consent, there is no HIPAA issue, but I'm not sure that's the case.

Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:18:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas I think a woman contemplating an abortion has a very legitimate medical reason to see what she will be getting into. I can think of no better reason. I think a woman contemplating an abortion KNOWS what she is getting into and I think that it's incredibly patronizing for you to suggest otherwise. But it's right in line with the presumption that women are morons who can't handle their own healthcare decisions and need to be taken care of in their own best interests as wards of the state. Same old shit from people who just can't stand women being free and will do their damnedest to enslave them to their will. Have you ever watched Jerry Springer? One would like to think all women and men know what they are getting into when they make life changing decisions but life and the Jerry Springer show has convinced me lots of us think we know what we are getting into but alas, "Jerry, "Jerry", "Jerry"... quote: Same old shit from people who just can't stand women being free and will do their damnedest to enslave them to their will I did not know that was happening. "Enslave" is a strong word for what we are discussing don't you think? I mean, after all, nobody made her procreate. Nobody forced her to think about an abortion or go to the clinic and nobody stopped her from having the abortion, they simply made sure she knew what she was going to have done, fully. Did you mean that or did you mean being made to be responsible to themselves and their baby? I could agree with that because most laws enforce personal responsibility in it's absense, like for instance the laws that make sure children are taken to doctors when they are very sick. Enforce personal responsibility. This is the same thing in essence. Nothing more. Certainly not "slavery".

ShibsStories -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:20:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas I did not know that was happening. "Enslave" is a strong word for what we are discussing don't you think? I mean, after all, nobody made her procreate. Nobody forced her to think about an abortion or go to the clinic and nobody stopped her from having the abortion, they simply made sure she knew what she was going to have done, fully. Did you mean that or did you mean being made to be responsible to themselves and their baby? I could agree with that because most laws enforce personal responsibility in it's absense, like for instance the laws that make sure children are taken to doctors when they are very sick. Enforce personal responsibility. This is the same thing in essence. Nothing more. Certainly not "slavery". The whole point of it is to stop her from having an abortion.

Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:21:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven When I have an operation, no matter what kind, I'll be damned if it'll be witnessed by anyone other than the operating staff. Anything else would violate HIPAA. Who the hell is that wacko to decide that an abortion will be viewed by complete strangers with no legitimate medical purpose? That's not a HIPPA issue since the participants in the video will have given their permission. Anyone can give anyone access to their Medical information if they so chose. HIPPA protects agains unauthorized disclosure not authorized disclosure, this is a free country after all. I have no clue why you would even bring HIPPA into this. I think a woman contemplating an abortion has a very legitimate medical reason to see what she will be getting into. I can think of no better reason. Arturas, my guess on reading the article was that the woman would be required to witness a live abortion. Yours was that a video would suffice. I've reread the article and it doesn't specify. My statement regarding HIPAA violation is that my medical history is private, including what operations I've had. You are correct that, if this is done in a filmed video made with the participants' consent, there is no HIPAA issue, but I'm not sure that's the case. THanks for the reply. I understand now and do not think live abortion witness is practical, desireable or suitable for this also.

Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:24:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShibsStories quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas I did not know that was happening. "Enslave" is a strong word for what we are discussing don't you think? I mean, after all, nobody made her procreate. Nobody forced her to think about an abortion or go to the clinic and nobody stopped her from having the abortion, they simply made sure she knew what she was going to have done, fully. Did you mean that or did you mean being made to be responsible to themselves and their baby? I could agree with that because most laws enforce personal responsibility in it's absense, like for instance the laws that make sure children are taken to doctors when they are very sick. Enforce personal responsibility. This is the same thing in essence. Nothing more. Certainly not "slavery". The whole point of it is to stop her from having an abortion. Really? How? You mean, if the woman sees what she will be getting into then she will elect not to do it? Sounds like Informed Consent to me, and it saves her some trauma if that is the case and that is a good thing, not a bad thing.

tj444 -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:24:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas Now, back to my point, what is wrong with informed consent and how does one get informed best? Why, by seeing it happen of course. That is best,without question. A picture is worth a thousand words, right? Right. Informed consent? It takes two to tango and many/most times its the guy that pushes for sex and also pushes for sex without condoms.. So then the men that get women pregnant should also legally be subjected to the very same descriptions, the viewing of an abortion, etc so that they will consider the consequences of sticking their dick in and not get away with just walking away.. [>:]

Zonie63 -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:33:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven When I have an operation, no matter what kind, I'll be damned if it'll be witnessed by anyone other than the operating staff. Anything else would violate HIPAA. Who the hell is that wacko to decide that an abortion will be viewed by complete strangers with no legitimate medical purpose? That's not a HIPPA issue since the participants in the video will have given their permission. Anyone can give anyone access to their Medical information if they so chose. HIPPA protects agains unauthorized disclosure not authorized disclosure, this is a free country after all. I have no clue why you would even bring HIPPA into this. I think a woman contemplating an abortion has a very legitimate medical reason to see what she will be getting into. I can think of no better reason. Arturas, my guess on reading the article was that the woman would be required to witness a live abortion. Yours was that a video would suffice. I've reread the article and it doesn't specify. My statement regarding HIPAA violation is that my medical history is private, including what operations I've had. You are correct that, if this is done in a filmed video made with the participants' consent, there is no HIPAA issue, but I'm not sure that's the case. Just to clarify, this is merely something that Rep. Proud mentioned in an e-mail. This is not part of any currently proposed legislation. The e-mail originally referenced HB 2036, which is a proposal to ban all abortions after 20 weeks, based on the theory that a fetus feels pain after that point. quote: Debate surrounding this year's battle over abortion-restriction legislation at the Arizona Legislature -- and in at least two other states -- has come down to a question of pain. Can a fetus feel pain, and at what gestational age does that ability develop? Abortion opponents believe it happens at 20 weeks. Abortion-rights supporters vehemently disagree. Both sides cite physicians who agree with them. Both sides cite medical research that they say scientifically proves their stance. But the science takes them only so far. Beyond that, it still comes down to a battle of beliefs. In the past 10 years, about a dozen state legislatures have debated and passed laws requiring that women seeking abortions be told that the fetus feels pain. In 2010, Nebraska was the first to ban abortions after 20 weeks based on the theory of fetal pain. Last year, Alabama, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas and Oklahoma passed similar laws. This year, Arizona, Michigan and Georgia are considering bans. Arizona's House Bill 2036 makes sweeping changes to abortion law, including banning abortions in most cases after 20 weeks. The bill still needs final approval from both the House and the Senate before going to the governor. Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2012/03/09/20120309arizona-abortion-bill-stirs-debate-fetal-pain.html#ixzz1q0NMoBTA One thing that I do wonder about, at least in regard to the so-called "war on women," is that Rep. Proud and the sponsor of this bill (Rep. Kimberly Yee) are women, and the governor of Arizona is also a woman. Are women making war on themselves? Are Republican women viewed as "traitors"? How is this viewed by other women?

ShibsStories -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:36:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: ShibsStories quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas I did not know that was happening. "Enslave" is a strong word for what we are discussing don't you think? I mean, after all, nobody made her procreate. Nobody forced her to think about an abortion or go to the clinic and nobody stopped her from having the abortion, they simply made sure she knew what she was going to have done, fully. Did you mean that or did you mean being made to be responsible to themselves and their baby? I could agree with that because most laws enforce personal responsibility in it's absense, like for instance the laws that make sure children are taken to doctors when they are very sick. Enforce personal responsibility. This is the same thing in essence. Nothing more. Certainly not "slavery". The whole point of it is to stop her from having an abortion. Really? How? You mean, if the woman sees what she will be getting into then she will elect not to do it? Sounds like Informed Consent to me, and it saves her some trauma if that is the case and that is a good thing, not a bad thing. And pamphlets or a verbal description of the procedure don't suffice for informed consent? Hell, I had major reconstructive foot surgery not long ago, and was barely handed a pamphlet- any information I wanted I had to go online and find myself- no one suggested I watch a surgery, or even a video of one, LET ALONE force me to watch one before I could have it. Why the big deal over informed consent for abortions but not much more dangerous procedures? As to how the whole point of this is to stop the woman from having the abortion, say the woman is squeamish, and refuses to watch the video- No abortion for her- the people who are going for this law win! Say it was me, and I was pissed about my rights being infringed on and refused to watch the video/live abortion- No abortion for me! Which considering my temper and stubbornness, not to mention whatever horrible situation led me to that choice in the first place would doubtless result in a backyard abortion which could very well kill me- who wins there? Say she wants the baby, but it has down syndrome- watching the video wont change her mind, but it will traumatize her. I knew in theory the doctor would be cutting my tendon and lengthening it, cutting into my bone, installing a plate and screws- that doesn't mean I wanted to see or even visualize it, and there was no reason I needed to. Edited because... Damned laptop ><

farglebargle -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:39:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas Really? How? You mean, if the woman sees what she will be getting into then she will elect not to do it? Sounds like Informed Consent to me, and it saves her some trauma if that is the case and that is a good thing, not a bad thing. I'm sure all the feeble minded women too stupid to actively manage their own healthcare really appreciate the way their Master is looking out for them -- even if they're to feeble minded to appreciate all the trouble you're going through on their behalf? WHAT IF SHE DOES NOT CONSENT TO VIEW THE DVD? ( arguably pornography produced and distributed at taxpayer expense? )

ShibsStories -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:41:43 PM)
Call this what it is- a sleazy back door brainstorming session on ways to keep women from having abortions.

tj444 -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:47:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 One thing that I do wonder about, at least in regard to the so-called "war on women," is that Rep. Proud and the sponsor of this bill (Rep. Kimberly Yee) are women, and the governor of Arizona is also a woman. Are women making war on themselves? Are Republican women viewed as "traitors"? How is this viewed by other women? Just cuz someone is a woman does not mean she is female-friendly.. When I was younger I went to a few female doctors, naively thinking that they would be more understanding, gentler and all that.. boy was i wrong.. The male doctors were much better, especially the younger ones not far out of med school.. So I wont see female doctors even today, thats how put off I still am... eta- about these female R politicians,.. the same thing, some are worse than R men.. Some imo are dumb bimbos spouting what the R men they hang with spout.. and women can also be corrupted, just as men.. The key word is politician.. seriously, is there even one out of the hundreds of them (male or female) that you could come close to trusting in any way?

farglebargle -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:49:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShibsStories Call this what it is- a sleazy back door brainstorming session on ways to keep women from having abortions. CORRECT! That's why there's nothing but silence in response to my question, "If a patient feels she doesn't need anyone telling her that she doesn't "understand" what her and her doctor are discussing, and she makes the INFORMED DECISION to withhold consent from VIEWING THE MATERIALS, how is it promoting informed consent to require her to go against her considered medical decision about her own care? "That's MY breeding slave, and I will decide what happens with her" explains their mental defect perfectly though.

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