RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (Full Version)

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LaTigresse -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 9:42:48 AM)

FR

I am sure that all of the anti abortion wing nuts would prefer this...

http://news.yahoo.com/forced-adoptions-for-unwed-mothers-around-the-globe.html



Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 10:01:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

quote:

Now, back to my point, what is wrong with informed consent and how does one get informed best? Why, by seeing it happen of course. That is best,without question. A picture is worth a thousand words, right? Right.


To be informed, one has to know the outcome. I'm fairly sure that everyone knows an abortion is permanent. I think anything else is meant to elicit a desired emotional response. That's not information it's manipulation. It would be be the same as a mother wanting to put her child up for adoption being "forced" to watch some video about a child screaming wanting it's mother. Every person I know has some grief about something. Grief doesn't mean that someone did something that they regret or that they did something wrong, it simply means they have feelings about it.


quote:

To be informed, one has to know the outcome.


I think that is true. But only half of the story. One must also know how one got to the outcome to be "informed".

informed [ɪnˈfɔːmd]
adj
1. having much knowledge or education; learned or cultured
2. based on information an informed judgment


quote:

That's not information it's manipulation.


I still am taken aback by the prominent use of hot botton words like coerce or manipulate and the free use of them in a context that is agenda prompted rather than factual or logical. Let's take the last, the word manipulation. Is requiring a woman to watch an abortion on video or listen to the heartbeat of a fetus meant to inform the woman so that she can know what will exactly happen and also hear her fetis's heartbeat for the first and perhaps only time "manipulation"?

Maybe, but do you feel women are so weak as to change their minds on such a life changing decision based on only emotions or are they actually using their brains and making an informed decision also? I think they do continue to use their brains and will make the best decision for them.

I do not think women are wet noodles so easily "coerced" and "manipulated" by the requirements of this proposed or real law.



MusicalBoredom -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 10:22:01 AM)

I am able to give consent for my child to have their tonsils out. Without watching a film I am fully informed. I understand that they will be under a general anesthesia, that they will be cut, that they will be in pain afterwards and that there are risks. I do not need to watch a video of a bloody operation to make this decision, I also don't need to watch a list of horror films where the operation went badly. Every medical procedure that I've ever had or have heard about was predicated by a very detailed description of the procedure and the risks. I'm not sure how that doesn't fall in your sited definition on informed.

Is it being suggested that people are being misled? Were people not aware that they were terminating their pregnancy? I'm fairly sure that the people that want this legislation simply want to make abortion illegal. It's very difficult to not assume that their stated anti-abortion motive is in every proposal regarding that issue.



Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 10:27:50 AM)

quote:

You tell me. You are the one that said that the intended purpose was to reduce abortions.


Not in the context of my post. In that context the intent is to reduce abortions that are consented to without the patient being fully informed.

The amount of information required to support "informed consent" differs by State but is defined by the states as law and not a position paper from Yale. In the case of many is it defined as the "resonable patient standard": what would the average patient need to know in order to be an informed participant in the decision? This standard focuses on considering what a patient would need to know in order to understand the decision at hand.

So, this brings us back to the life changing abortion decision. What does the average patient need to know in order to understand the decision at hand? This is not up to you or me but the people of the State of Arizona but I feel safe in saying when contemplating the destruction of a future baby the more information the better and more information empowers the woman.



Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 10:33:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

I am able to give consent for my child to have their tonsils out. Without watching a film I am fully informed. I understand that they will be under a general anesthesia, that they will be cut, that they will be in pain afterwards and that there are risks. I do not need to watch a video of a bloody operation to make this decision, I also don't need to watch a list of horror films where the operation went badly. Every medical procedure that I've ever had or have heard about was predicated by a very detailed description of the procedure and the risks. I'm not sure how that doesn't fall in your sited definition on informed.

Is it being suggested that people are being misled? Were people not aware that they were terminating their pregnancy? I'm fairly sure that the people that want this legislation simply want to make abortion illegal. It's very difficult to not assume that their stated anti-abortion motive is in every proposal regarding that issue.



quote:

I am able to give consent for my child to have their tonsils out. Without watching a film I am fully informed.


(THis seems to be the real focus of your post. Forgive me if I erred on this impression).
Do you feel getting tonsils out requires the same level of information as destroying your potential future child in the making?



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 10:41:17 AM)

That quote I gave came straight from a legal case in Washington.  Crawford v. Wojnas, 51 Wn. App. 781 (1988).  The court cited the Yale article, as well as other case law, and this is still good law.  So, that is how informed coinsent is defined here.  As far as I know, the "informed consent" doctrine is not statutorily defined in any state where I practice, but rather is common law.  How about where you live?  What's the statute?

The traditional legal meaning of informed consent is consent about risks.  So, how does watching such an operation in advance inform you about risk?  Again, you may think the goal is laudable, but it is so far afield from the traditional legal meaning of "informed consent" that it really can't be called that. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

You tell me. You are the one that said that the intended purpose was to reduce abortions.



The amount of information required to support "informed consent" differs by State but is defined by the states as law and not a position paper from Yale. In the case of many is it defined as the "resonable patient standard": what would the average patient need to know in order to be an informed participant in the decision? This standard focuses on considering what a patient would need to know in order to understand the decision at hand.

So, this brings us back to the life changing abortion decision. What does the average patient need to know in order to understand the decision at hand? This is not up to you or me but the people of the State of Arizona but I feel safe in saying when contemplating the destruction of a future baby the more information the better and more information empowers the woman.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 10:43:55 AM)

quote:

(THis seems to be the real focus of your post. Forgive me if I erred on this impression).
Do you feel getting tonsils out requires the same level of information as destroying your potential future child in the making?


I can't answer for Musical, but legally, yes.  It does require the exact same level of information to be informed consent.  What are the potential risks?  Anything else is well outside the ambit of informed consent.



MusicalBoredom -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 10:49:36 AM)

quote:

destroying your potential future child



This is the problem. That's an emotional response shared by most anti-abortion people. It's a core belief and not a fact. As a belief, it may be correct or incorrect. I believe in God -- I can't prove or disprove my belief. I could be wrong or I could be right.

Who isn't informed about abortion? What information do you want people to have that they don't already have? If it's more "if you knew the 'truth' you wouldn't do it" then that's not about being informed but rather about trying to convince someone that your (not you personally) views are correct.

For me, I wouldn't have a funeral for a miscarried pregnancy and some people would. I have don't facts either way to support who is right as that's along the line of a belief based decision.

[ETA the missing word "don't" because I posted without reading like a dumbass.]



xssve -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 10:50:13 AM)

Yeah, and men should be required to watch a live birth before being allowed to have sex.

Although I don't know how many women would volunteer to do that - which brings up a whole privacy issue around this ridiculous legislation - on what assumption is a woman undergoing abortion required to do it in front of an audience?

Oh, I know: cunts are community property.



xssve -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 10:53:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

FR

I am sure that all of the anti abortion wing nuts would prefer this...

http://news.yahoo.com/forced-adoptions-for-unwed-mothers-around-the-globe.html

Oh yeah, it's big business.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 11:24:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


destroying your potential future child in the making?

Same thing happens when you get a BJ.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 11:25:06 AM)

Every sperm is sacred, right Hillwilliam?



Hillwilliam -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 11:30:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Every sperm is sacred, right Hillwilliam?

According to the Catholics, it is. According to the Tao of Hillie, they are best placed inside a willing lady with either loving care or a brutal throatfuck or something in between.



PeonForHer -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 11:38:42 AM)

FR

Could be an interesting precedent. Those wishing to join the military, or even vote to send the military into a combat situation, should be shown videos of soldiers who've just been severely wounded and are still in agony; all executions should be watched by all citizens of the relevant state . . . Where would it end?



Moonhead -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 11:46:37 AM)

FR:
Has nobody wondered whether it might be a bit of an imposition on somebody having an abortion to be expected to have a shitload of other women their State is trying to abuse and/or a camera crew in to watch them having this intensely personal crisis resolved?



LaTigresse -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 1:09:45 PM)

That was my first thought.

I mean, who's gonna volunteer? Or are they going to get an actress and 'create' the whole experience with faux blood and all?



Moonhead -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 1:53:26 PM)

There's also the question of how long it's going to take the State to find an abortion for the evil women opposed to God's plan for them to watch. I suppose if they can put it back and stall it enough, they can delay somebody who wants an abortion seeing one until she's starting her third trimester when she can't get one anyway. And if she can't get one until she's seen the exhibit...



Zonie63 -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 2:17:33 PM)

The bill in question just passed in the Arizona Senate by a 20-10 vote:

The state Senate voted this morning to ban abortions after 20 weeks.

The 20-10 vote came after proponents of HB 2036 said the question of terminating a pregnancy is not simply between a woman and her doctor.

“There’s a third person in the room,” said Sen. Steve Yarbrough, R-Chandler.


Read more: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/arizona-senate-no-abortion-after-weeks/article_1d338494-7836-11e1-8dd8-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz1qM1efzXi



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 2:25:01 PM)

As I understand it, though, this bill bans abortions after 20 weeks.  Nothing in it about watching an abortion before having one.  That was just some legislator shooting off her mouth.



Zonie63 -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 2:28:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

As I understand it, though, this bill bans abortions after 20 weeks.  Nothing in it about watching an abortion before having one.  That was just some legislator shooting off her mouth.


Exactly.



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