RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (Full Version)

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ShibsStories -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 9:52:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


One thing that I do wonder about, at least in regard to the so-called "war on women," is that Rep. Proud and the sponsor of this bill (Rep. Kimberly Yee) are women, and the governor of Arizona is also a woman. Are women making war on themselves? Are Republican women viewed as "traitors"? How is this viewed by other women?




They are enjoying their power trips, and honestly believe they have the right to force their ideals on others.

They remind me of the Spanish Inquisition. All means necessary to convert others to their religion and beliefs.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/23/2012 11:37:18 PM)

Informed consent does not mean witnessing a procedure, it means being fully informed of the risks and consequences. One isn't required to watch open heart surgery before having the operation, in the name of informed consent. This is just another attempt to be punitive.

Hell, why not make a woman perform an abortion before having one, that would really be informed consent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

There are however, those who were elected by the State of Arizona to look out for the common good. To protect life, liberty and protect their right to pursue happiness.


Those only apply to Citizens and those with valid birth certificates, right?


You choose to redirect rather than stand your ground and answer why informed consent is bad and why you are sticking your nose in Arizona's business, they are all adult voters there and can take care of it themselves.




Musicmystery -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/24/2012 12:22:47 AM)

quote:

what is wrong with informed consent and how does one get informed best? Why, by seeing it happen of course. That is best,without question. A picture is worth a thousand words, right?


In that case, anyone having any procedure should be required to watch one first.




GrandPoobah -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/24/2012 3:03:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

It’s safe to say that Arizona, perhaps more than any other state, has declared war on women. But Republicans aren’t through yet, and if Terri Proud has her way, women in Arizona will have to watch an abortion procedure before they can go through with an abortion themselves.

In an email response to a constituent who opposes HB 2036, Proud said she thinks women should be forced to watch a doctor perform an abortion before being allowed to get the procedure as well."


So. Why shouldn't women be required to watch an abortion before going through the procedure? Then they fully know what they are getting into and what exactly will happen.

This is called informed consent. She is better informed before consenting. Being better informed is a good thing, because if nothing else it should avoid the many mental post abortion issues women report having, like when they see chidren playing in the playground and think of what might have been and then crying again for the millionth time. You think I've not heard this from so many women over the years? It's amazing how many, I would say the majority of women experience this post abortion depression for life.

So, it seems to me the GOP is looking out for women and their babies and not trying to "war" on them. Well done, Arizona. Again.


The GOP is not "looking out for women." They are trying to walk backwards into the Dark Ages where women were not allowed to think, act, or do anything for themselves. If this logic applied, you shouldn't be able to get any medical procedure done until you have watched said operation...which means if you need emergency surgery...you're gunna die first...because we don't have any those scheduled in the next week.

Get the politicians the heck out of the doctor's office and the exam rooms. We train doctors to treat patients. We elect politicians, often based upon who can raise and spend the most money or lie the best. Those are two very different disciplines, and I think I'd rather have my doctor tell me what he/she thinks I need to know and answer my questions when it comes to my own health. Remember, the politicians in some places even want to encourage your doctor to lie to you! That's about all you need to know about the ethics of these folks.




GrandPoobah -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/24/2012 3:05:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShibsStories


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


One thing that I do wonder about, at least in regard to the so-called "war on women," is that Rep. Proud and the sponsor of this bill (Rep. Kimberly Yee) are women, and the governor of Arizona is also a woman. Are women making war on themselves? Are Republican women viewed as "traitors"? How is this viewed by other women?




They are enjoying their power trips, and honestly believe they have the right to force their ideals on others.

They remind me of the Spanish Inquisition. All means necessary to convert others to their religion and beliefs.


Actually they're not traitors. They have been properly programmed to spout the party line, and they know their husbands will whip them into shape if they screw up. Remember Michelle Bachmann, and her discussion regarding submission to her husband. Yeah, that about sums it up.




tweakabelle -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/24/2012 4:36:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

It’s safe to say that Arizona, perhaps more than any other state, has declared war on women. But Republicans aren’t through yet, and if Terri Proud has her way, women in Arizona will have to watch an abortion procedure before they can go through with an abortion themselves.

In an email response to a constituent who opposes HB 2036, Proud said she thinks women should be forced to watch a doctor perform an abortion before being allowed to get the procedure as well."


So. Why shouldn't women be required to watch an abortion before going through the procedure? Then they fully know what they are getting into and what exactly will happen.

This is called informed consent


So, it seems to me the GOP is looking out for women and their babies and not trying to "war" on them. Well done, Arizona. Again.

Is there any depth you won't sink to in order to defend the disgusting attacks on women inspired by the twisted minds of your co-religionists? Is there any procedure so revolting that you will be unable to contrive some absurdly tenuous apology for it?

There's no need for any further displays of unctuous misogyny. We all get precisely where women fit into your scheme of things. And almost all of us have only sympathy for any women forced to endure the endless humiliations and oppression designed for them by your co-religionists and revulsion towards the fanatical misogyny that organises and promotes these tortures.

Odd that in all the posts I've seen you make on matters of sexual morality, I have yet to see a post deploring the persistent organised child rape the priests who dream up these tortures for women indulge in. Or a post condemning the Church for its consistent defence and protection of those rapists, at the expense of their child- victims. This silence fully articulates the selective ideologically-driven commitment to welfare of children inherent in your views. Women and their babies are mere playthings to be used to promote your medieval 'morality' slaves to be bred at will.

Hypocrisy and misogyny on astronomical scales.




tweakabelle -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/24/2012 4:57:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShibsStories

Call this what it is- a sleazy back door brainstorming session on ways to keep women from having abortions.



CORRECT!

That's why there's nothing but silence in response to my question, "If a patient feels she doesn't need anyone telling her that she doesn't "understand" what her and her doctor are discussing, and she makes the INFORMED DECISION to withhold consent from VIEWING THE MATERIALS, how is it promoting informed consent to require her to go against her considered medical decision about her own care?

"That's MY breeding slave, and I will decide what happens with her" explains their mental defect perfectly though.

QFT (both posts) Thank you ShibsStories and fargle




kalikshama -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/24/2012 5:34:19 AM)

quote:

And pamphlets or a verbal description of the procedure don't suffice for informed consent? Hell, I had major reconstructive foot surgery not long ago, and was barely handed a pamphlet- any information I wanted I had to go online and find myself- no one suggested I watch a surgery, or even a video of one, LET ALONE force me to watch one before I could have it.

Why the big deal over informed consent for abortions but not much more dangerous procedures?


Ya, my GYN recommended a UAE with nary a mention of the potentially life threatening possible adverse effects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uterine_artery_embolization#Adverse_effects




kalikshama -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/24/2012 5:36:45 AM)

quote:

This is called informed consent. She is better informed before consenting.


Do you agree with Rep. Proud on this as well:

“I also want men seeking intercourse to be forced to watch an actual birth.”




DarkSteven -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/24/2012 5:51:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

THanks for the reply. I understand now and do not think live abortion witness is practical, desireable or suitable for this also.


Arturas, consider my statements withdrawn. After a little thought, it seems obvious that, although not stated in the article, a video would be much more practical and likely the intent of the bill. So my idea of witnessing a live operation is wrong.




mnottertail -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/24/2012 6:03:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

This is called informed consent. She is better informed before consenting.


Do you agree with Rep. Proud on this as well:

“I also want men seeking intercourse to be forced to watch an actual birth.”


I have seen it, twice.    No man should have to endure THAT, unless there is free psychotherapy written into the bill.




Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 1:29:19 AM)

quote:

If this logic applied, you shouldn't be able to get any medical procedure done until you have watched said operation...which means if you need emergency surgery...you're gunna die first...because we don't have any those scheduled in the next week.


There is a major difference here between Emergency Surgery and an elective Abortion. That being one is emergency and one is very much not. So, let's take the scenario of the non-emergency or elective procedure. In such a situation it is normal to review exactly what will happen with models and pictures and posters in the office and even videos to fully explain what will happen and the risks. So, I do not see any reason such informational approaches should not be used and in fact, when this is such a life changing event, the information must be given in full by law without any room to fudge it.

Does this have the intended purpose of reducing abortions? I'm sure it does. So what? It is the woman who decides one way or the other after being fully informed so this is a good thing and not a bad thing. I read some of these postings and wonder why they seem to suggest that if a woman does see the procedure on video that she and the fetus will undergo and then decides such a thing is not to be done then that is somehow a very bad thing. How could that be a bad thing when it is she who decides and not anyone else? It cannot be a bad thing.




farglebargle -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 4:04:24 AM)

quote:

Does this have the intended purpose of reducing abortions? I'm sure it does.


And exactly how did you determine that 'reducing abortions' was a compelling State interest significant enough to infringe on the dual individual rights of patient privacy and family planning?




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 8:11:26 AM)

Oh, so it isn't about women making an informed decision, it's about coercing them to make a particular decision. Thanks for clearing that up.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Does this have the intended purpose of reducing abortions? I'm sure it does.








Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 9:02:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Oh, so it isn't about women making an informed decision, it's about coercing them to make a particular decision. Thanks for clearing that up.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Does this have the intended purpose of reducing abortions? I'm sure it does.







coercing:
To force somebody: to make somebody do something against his or her will by using force or threats.



"Coercing". How does giving a woman the most information possible so she can make the best informed decision possible the same as "forcing someone to do something against her will"?

Please explain your use of the word "Coercing". Thanks.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 9:10:48 AM)

Well, first let's start with the actual definition.  I highlighted the parts that you might find enlightening Arturas.  That pretty much clear it up for you?

1.  to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document. 2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience. 3. to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.




Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 9:10:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Does this have the intended purpose of reducing abortions? I'm sure it does.


And exactly how did you determine that 'reducing abortions' was a compelling State interest significant enough to infringe on the dual individual rights of patient privacy and family planning?


I don't understand how this is an infringement on patient privacy. How is privacy infringed upon? What is revealed to those who are outside of the patient and doctor relationship? How does giving a woman more information "infringe" on "family planning". After all, the woman in question does not have to reveal to anyone other than her doctor what is happening and she still has the right to have an abortion.

So, although I see a lot of great sounding "hot button" words and phrases I don't think they remotely apply to the requirement to give a woman the most information possible.




Arturas -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 9:19:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Well, first let's start with the actual definition.  I highlighted the parts that you might find enlightening Arturas.  That pretty much clear it up for you?

1.  to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document. 2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience. 3. to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.


Each of these definitions are correct but I don't see how giving a woman maximum information can be described as using force, intimidation, authority without regard to individual desire (this does not apply to lawful requirements, slavery yes, but not lawful requirements because after all none of us want to carry a drivers licence to drive but we must, nor do I see any relationship to "dominate" or even "compulsion" nor is "forced obedience" appropriate to lawful requirements.

Like other posts, I see a lot of hot button words that sound good but really have no application to this proposed or actual law to require a woman to witness what she and the fetus will be going through before going through it. This is very informed consent. Keywords here are "informed" and "consent" because the woman can still proceed with the abortion.

Knowledge is power. In this regard, the woman is more empowered and not less so. So, it is a good thing regardless of what the woman decides to do now armed with this information that she would not possibly have without first hand knowledge of the procedure.




MusicalBoredom -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 9:28:51 AM)

quote:

Now, back to my point, what is wrong with informed consent and how does one get informed best? Why, by seeing it happen of course. That is best,without question. A picture is worth a thousand words, right? Right.


To be informed, one has to know the outcome. I'm fairly sure that everyone knows an abortion is permanent. I think anything else is meant to elicit a desired emotional response. That's not information it's manipulation. It would be be the same as a mother wanting to put her child up for adoption being "forced" to watch some video about a child screaming wanting it's mother. Every person I know has some grief about something. Grief doesn't mean that someone did something that they regret or that they did something wrong, it simply means they have feelings about it.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abortion Before Having One (3/27/2012 9:39:14 AM)

You tell me.  You are the one that said that the intended purpose was to reduce abortions.  I assume what you meant was that the intended purposes was to reduce the number of abortions.  What does that have to do with informed consent?  The purpose of informed consent is:

quote:

The doctrine of informed consent refers to the requirement that a physician, before obtaining the consent of his or her patient to treatment, inform the patient of the treatment's attendant risks. The doctrine is premised Page 783 on the fundamental principle that "[e]very human being of adult years and sound mind has a right to determine what shall be done with his own body". Schloendorff v. Society of N.Y. Hosp., 211 N.Y. 125, 129, 105 N.E. 92 (1914) (Cardozo, J.), overruled on other grounds, Bing v. Thunig, 2 N.Y.2d 656, 667, 143 N.E.2d 3, 163 N.Y.S.2d 3 (1957). A necessary corollary to this principle is that the individual be given sufficient information to make an intelligent decision. See Canterbury v. Spence, 464 F.2d 772, 783 (D.C. Cir.) [cert. denied, 409 U.S. 1064 (1972)]. Smith v. Shannon, 100 Wn.2d 26, 29-30, 666 P.2d 351 (1983). See Shultz, From Informed Consent to Patient Choice: A New Protected Interest, 95 Yale L.J. 219 (1985).
The doctrine of informed consent refers to the requirement that a physician, before obtaining the consent of his or her patient to treatment, inform the patient of the treatment's attendant risks. The doctrine is premised Page 783 on the fundamental principle that "[e]very human being of adult years and sound mind has a right to determine what shall be done with his own body". Schloendorff v. Society of N.Y. Hosp., 211 N.Y. 125, 129, 105 N.E. 92 (1914) (Cardozo, J.), overruled on other grounds, Bing v. Thunig, 2 N.Y.2d 656, 667, 143 N.E.2d 3, 163 N.Y.S.2d 3 (1957). A necessary corollary to this principle is that the individual be given sufficient information to make an intelligent decision. See Canterbury v. Spence, 464 F.2d 772, 783 (D.C. Cir.) [cert. denied, 409 U.S. 1064 (1972)]. Smith v. Shannon, 100 Wn.2d 26, 29-30, 666 P.2d 351 (1983). See Shultz, From Informed Consent to Patient Choice: A New Protected Interest, 95 Yale L.J. 219 (1985).

The purpose of informed consent is not to "reduce the number" of anything, it is to provide information about risks.  So, whether you agree with such a law or not, if the purpose is to coerce someone out of a choice, what does that have to do with informed consent?  If I had to witness open heart surgery before I had such an operation, it would probably scare the bejesus out of me enough not to have the operation.  It would not, however, help me in making an intelligent decision about the surgery. 

The fact is, such a requirement is simply punitive and a further attempt to coerce a woman not to have an abortion.  You may consider that a laudable goal.  I don't.  I just think it is disingenuous to claim it has to do with informed consent, instead of calling it what it really is. 
The doctrine of informed consent refers to the requirement that a physician, before obtaining the consent of his or her patient to treatment, inform the patient of the treatment's attendant risks. The doctrine is premised Page 783 on the fundamental principle that "[e]very human being of adult years and sound mind has a right to determine what shall be done with his own body". Schloendorff v. Society of N.Y. Hosp., 211 N.Y. 125, 129, 105 N.E. 92 (1914) (Cardozo, J.), overruled on other grounds, Bing v. Thunig, 2 N.Y.2d 656, 667, 143 N.E.2d 3, 163 N.Y.S.2d 3 (1957). A necessary corollary to this principle is that the individual be given sufficient information to make an intelligent decision. See Canterbury v. Spence, 464 F.2d 772, 783 (D.C. Cir.) [cert. denied, 409 U.S. 1064 (1972)]. Smith v. Shannon, 100 Wn.2d 26, 29-30, 666 P.2d 351 (1983). See Shultz, From Informed Consent to Patient Choice: A New Protected Interest, 95 Yale L.J. 219 (1985).

The doctrine of informed consent refers to the requirement that a physician, before obtaining the consent of his or her patient to treatment, inform the patient of the treatment's attendant risks. The doctrine is premised Page 783 on the fundamental principle that "[e]very human being of adult years and sound mind has a right to determine what shall be done with his own body". Schloendorff v. Society of N.Y. Hosp., 211 N.Y. 125, 129, 105 N.E. 92 (1914) (Cardozo, J.), overruled on other grounds, Bing v. Thunig, 2 N.Y.2d 656, 667, 143 N.E.2d 3, 163 N.Y.S.2d 3 (1957). A necessary corollary to this principle is that the individual be given sufficient information to make an intelligent decision. See Canterbury v. Spence, 464 F.2d 772, 783 (D.C. Cir.) [cert. denied, 409 U.S. 1064 (1972)]. Smith v. Shannon, 100 Wn.2d 26, 29-30, 666 P.2d 351 (1983). See Shultz, From Informed Consent to Patient Choice: A New Protected Interest, 95 Yale L.J. 219 (1985).




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