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The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 1:39:38 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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For those of you who have never taken psych 101.. I am not talking about the artist Madonna (just kidding)

The Madonna Whore Complex is something I think that every woman I know of has seen in someone if she has dated more than a couple of men. If she didn't date someone with this issue than she has a friend that did. I am talking about men that believe they should marry the "good girl" and have sex with "whores". It seems like so many men I have known felt this way about women on an unconscious level. If they were seriously interested in marriage and commitment, then often they were not likely to expect a lot of wild sex. It seems my friends have been through this too. These ideas about women permeate this culture.

I was thinking about how this is not the case as often in D/s relationships where you actually seek someone who will be interested in fulfilling your needs sexually. There is no hiding your needs in a healthy D/s relationship. A dominant will lovingly call their submissive a whore as they passionately kiss them. They will tell their submissive "You are my slut" as they put a collar marking them as "theirs" for life. A submissive is who she is, and is accepted for being "the whore", even valued all the more for it.

The reason I bring it up on the forum is because I wonder at times if vanilla men that look for submissive women for kinky sex have ended up in a sexless vanilla marriage precisely because of this complex. They sought out a woman for marriage that was the "good girl" and they cannot express their "needs" to her, so they look for one of those "slutty" submissives to date on the side.

I started to think about this because I feel lucky that I am accepted for who I am on a sexual level, and from my perspective dominant men that are single and looking for a submissive for a long term relationship tend not to have this complex. I see a lot more acceptance that a woman can be a Madonna and a whore at the same time, and that these parts were not mutually exclusive to each other. I was wondering if other people had thought about this (or maybe I have been up too long...its getting late on the West Coast.,..smiles)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Post #: 1

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 1:51:42 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

Hi Julia....

M {Blktallfullfig} started a good thread on this a few months back. Not sure if you checked the archives.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_245744/mpage_1/key_Madonna/tm.htm

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 2

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 5:41:13 AM

irishbynature

Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline

Winks to Julia.... (Another Librarian is in our mists...lol...see 2nd post). Excellent post Julia!!!

I've experienced the whole Madonna/Whore Complex --not once but TWICE. I was courted twice in my life by men I fell in love with. Both times, they stopped all sexual activity, claiming they 'admired me too much....couldn't imagine me sexy anymore' because they had put me on a pedestal as they would their own mothers....etc...

It does happen. It can happen. When it does, you become "Mom" and not "Lover" and emotionally, it is quite painful loving a man who has changed/has issues...and won't seek help for them.

Intelligent and thoughtful post Julia. It needs to continue to be discussed, archived or not archived.
Bravo!
Irish

_____________________________

What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 3

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 6:06:59 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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I'm not sure that when someone posts a link to something in the archives they mean to dampen discussion. More of a case of trying to be helpful.

(in reply to irishbynature)

Post #: 4

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 6:14:16 AM

sweetbbwsub31

Posts: 331
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline

I have several male friends who are married and whos wives have no idea just how kinky they are. One is in his 50's and plays behind his wifes back (a Dom and his wife has no idea). One is in his 40's and has multiple partners and even attends sex parties behind his wifes back. (bisexual and wife has no clue) Yet another is in his early 30's and in my opinion will never be monogomous. Yet, he is engaged to a woman who thinks the missinary position is THE way to have sexaual contact and thinks oral sex is gross. Heaven help this one. He is one of the most erotic men I have ever met.

I don't understand it myself. But I look at my relationships and I stayed married to a man for 9 years who didn't even scratch the surface of making me happy. Everyone has their reasons I suppose. But, speaking from experience, I am so much happier now that I can be honest with my partner and have my needs met with full disclosure from all parties.

Back to the OP. Yes I have seen it more often than not. These men also seem to be very unhappy and they feel trapped in their relationships.

sub tara

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 5

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 6:17:57 AM

irishbynature

Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline

That could be the caselLevel...however; many new people come to the forum and being told it is an archived discussion (in my opinion), is the same as saying, "This topic is finished..go read here and find out what we discussed..." No offense was meant at all. Juliaoceania is a dear friend of mine in real-life, and referring to her post as one that's been discussed, seems to lessen the impact of what she's trying to examine to the group, esp newbies.
Respectfully
Irish

_____________________________

What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 6

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 7:18:40 AM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Oh come on, do you really believe people check their neuroses at the door when they start doing S&M?

Just look at the threads about "can you love and do real D/s", "he punishes her but not me" and others that, at least to me, smell strongly of exactly this sort of dichotomy.

Nope, we bring it all in with us like dirt on our feet.

(in reply to irishbynature)

Post #: 7

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 7:28:11 AM

JohnSteed1967

Posts: 304
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline

OH time to put my two cents in with it. I was intrested in bdsm when I met my ex wife. Told her what I wanted and explained the whole thing. She was intrested, wanted to know more.

She was a psychology major and next semester was to take a course in human sexuality, well the professor brough in a gay leatherman as a guest speaker, who showed a video from a bdsm convention where a male sub had his scrotum nailed to a 2x4 and then set on fire!

After that I became a pervert and was sick and twisted. during the seven years of our marriage if I got sex it was once every three months and missionary only in the pitch black.

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 8

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 8:08:52 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

The cause is simple. Whether it's a vanilla marriage or an alternative relationship; people are so insecure that they lack the confidence to be who they are. Instead of releasing those feelings and trying to become more self-aware, they instead seek 'approval' by acting as they think others want them to. They act as 'society' decides, their work place, their parents, their spouse; expects them to act. It turns out that their whole life is a result of that 'act'. So begins the rationalization, that unfortunately for some, only dies when they do.

There is no 'Madonna/Whore' complex from the inside. External pressures create the conflict. "I love you too much to make love to you." "I see you as the mother of our child and can't see you as my sexual partner." A man who uses these excuses with a partner is using them to rationalize the end result of years of 'acting'. The people who may need to see an 'act' are the people outside the relationship. The employers, the parents, the children contingent upon their age all may need to see an 'act' sometimes at some point. Your partner in a relationship can never be dealing with an 'act'.

(in reply to JohnSteed1967)

Post #: 9

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 8:17:06 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Oh come on, do you really believe people check their neuroses at the door when they start doing S&M?

Just look at the threads about "can you love and do real D/s", "he punishes her but not me" and others that, at least to me, smell strongly of exactly this sort of dichotomy.

Nope, we bring it all in with us like dirt on our feet.

See this time you beat me to it :)

It's also why most female subs enjoy being called "MY SLUT" but cannot be comfortable just calling themselves "A SLUT." The possessive form of "my" allows them to feel secure and desired without the negative connotations of being an actual slut.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 10

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 8:22:53 AM

JassWolf

Posts: 59
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

men that look for submissive women for kinky sex have ended up in a sexless vanilla marriage precisely because of this complex. They sought out a woman for marriage that was the "good girl" and they cannot express their "needs" to her, so they look for one of those "slutty" submissives to date on the side.

Mercnbeth as always bring up a telling insight, and my experience reflects on it, I think, from the "other" side. In my marriage (ended last year) I fell for a woman who was an incredible sex partner while we were dating ... at least for the stage I was at at that point in my life ... three days into the honeymoon she told me "something was wrong" and that she was sure she'd be able to get back to liking sex again if I could be understanding and patient. From then on, sex was lights-out vanilla and twice or three times a month .... she had come to realize that she just didn't like sex.

So does this inversion become the whore Madonna complex? Does it have another name? Or may I call it what I think it is -- a lie?

JW

_____________________________

The greater part of what my neighbors call good I believe in my soul to be bad, and if I repent of anything, it is very likely to be my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well? -- Thoreau

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 11

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 8:28:16 AM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

I just had my day made! Thanks!

(in reply to JassWolf)

Post #: 12

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 8:36:28 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

I think it's possible for both genders to play the sex game until they've hooked a mate then they go back to being who they really are. Sometimes those of us with high libidos end up with people who hate sex and just used it as the lure to get us into a relationship we feel we can't leave. BTDT. Blech.

(in reply to JassWolf)

Post #: 13

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 9:13:36 AM

pinkee

Posts: 487
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

For those of you who have never taken psych 101.. I am not talking about the artist Madonna (just kidding)

The Madonna Whore Complex is something I think that every woman I know of has seen in someone if she has dated more than a couple of men. If she didn't date someone with this issue than she has a friend that did. I am talking about men that believe they should marry the "good girl" and have sex with "whores". It seems like so many men I have known felt this way about women on an unconscious level. If they were seriously interested in marriage and commitment, then often they were not likely to expect a lot of wild sex. It seems my friends have been through this too. These ideas about women permeate this culture.

I was thinking about how this is not the case as often in D/s relationships where you actually seek someone who will be interested in fulfilling your needs sexually. There is no hiding your needs in a healthy D/s relationship. A dominant will lovingly call their submissive a whore as they passionately kiss them. They will tell their submissive "You are my slut" as they put a collar marking them as "theirs" for life. A submissive is who she is, and is accepted for being "the whore", even valued all the more for it.

The reason I bring it up on the forum is because I wonder at times if vanilla men that look for submissive women for kinky sex have ended up in a sexless vanilla marriage precisely because of this complex. They sought out a woman for marriage that was the "good girl" and they cannot express their "needs" to her, so they look for one of those "slutty" submissives to date on the side.

I started to think about this because I feel lucky that I am accepted for who I am on a sexual level, and from my perspective dominant men that are single and looking for a submissive for a long term relationship tend not to have this complex. I see a lot more acceptance that a woman can be a Madonna and a whore at the same time, and that these parts were not mutually exclusive to each other. I was wondering if other people had thought about this (or maybe I have been up too long...its getting late on the West Coast.,..smiles)

In a word, the answer is yes. You would not believe some of the things men have said to me in emails or IM....however, they are HNGs and yes, most are married, and i don't give a flying f**k why they act the way they do.

pinkee

< Message edited by pinkee -- 6/4/2006 9:15:08 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 14

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 9:24:05 AM

diamonddreamlove

Posts: 770
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline

hmmm and don't forget the submissive woman that marries the vanilla man because she thinks that is the way life is suppose to be. The whore hidden and the Madonna on display. Did it still doing it just leading another more satisfying double life. Not easy, not happy and in vanilla not honest. Here, well all is good. And of course there are always reasons why a double life is led so lets not go there.

(in reply to pinkee)

Post #: 15

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 9:38:14 AM

aurora31

Posts: 266
Joined: 8/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: diamonddreamlove

hmmm and don't forget the submissive woman that marries the vanilla man because she thinks that is the way life is suppose to be. The whore hidden and the Madonna on display. Did it still doing it just leading another more satisfying double life. Not easy, not happy and in vanilla not honest. Here, well all is good. And of course there are always reasons why a double life is led so lets not go there.

Hmmmm. Sounds alot like me. Although I would never settle for vanilla. I do struggel with what I percieve societies expectations of acceptable behavior. I very much enjoy the times I get to act out on being a slut/whore...but then tend to feel guilty for enjoying it after the fact.

aurorra

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

Post #: 16

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 9:49:46 AM

champagnewishes

Posts: 1310
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Orange County
Status: offline

The reverse is true for me. I spent two years in training at the age of 23. Two of the most eye-opening years of my life. I discovered who i was and was able to accept and love myself for it.

When i was released to go discover for myself....i ran straight to a vanilla guy, got married and raised two kids. I often ask myself why...the only answer i come up with is cause that's what i thought i was "suppose" to do. Years of society's conditioning...weakness on my part. 14 years later we divorced...wow like i couldn't have seen that coming...lol I can say though that i never once looked outside the marriage to satisfy my needs. I made a committment and i lived up to it...even if it meant short changing myself. I have little respect for those who whine "my wife doesn't understand my needs" when they knew up front what they were getting into...that's your problem...not hers. Be a man and give her the honor of a divorce before you go about satisfying your needs...

_____________________________

Nirvana cannot be described, it is only understood truly by a person who has experienced it.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 17

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 10:26:09 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Hittng Fast Reply,

I think Mercnbeth are somewhat correct... this is something that is projected from society at large and not a universal around the world. We still are somewhat Victorian in the way we view sex.

I did not mean to infer that women do not do something similar themselves,.... Maybe the motive is different though. Most women who have sex hangups do not go out looking elsewhere in my experience.. they just shut down sexually altogether.

Irishbynature, your experince kinda spawned the thread..smiles. But I also have noticed some doms that I have spoken with were in the lifestyle, left it for a vanilla woman, and then returned after they fooled around on their vanilla wives because they could not hide their nature. I have heard this story from several doms (None of whom I was involved with, just friendship), they all ended up leaving the vanilla marriage and returning to the lifestyle. I would wonder if these gentlemen also had a dose of Madonna/whore complex going on... Perhaps they were trying to overcome that.

Jass and John, I do not know what to say to you guys...that sucks...

Im wondering if LA and Crappy think that Madonna whore complex is just as prevalent in the lifestyle then? It would not surprise me if this was so.

And Tara, I know what you mean about vanilla relationships. I have been in a few that lasted a few years or more and this was my experience.,.. trying to have hot sex with cold fish never works very well. On reflection this may have been why

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to champagnewishes)

Post #: 18

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 10:35:04 AM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Julia,

People do not shed their humanity when they enter the scene, this is not some state of nirvana here. Yes I have found S&M to be something that has expanded me, made me a better person, but then by definition, I brought all those defects I have "fixed" into the scene with me. Guess what too, despite my present level of perfection, I still have all sorts of issues, crap, baggage, etc.

I mean people find Christ and SOME become better people, others study Buddhism and some become better people, some find the path on the self help isle at borders, some never do. Why on earth would S&M be any different?

Yes, we explore our sexuality in more open ways, but look at how many venues actively suppress sexual acts, how many scream that D/s or S&m, or whatever, isn't about sex. You want to clear a room at an average party? Force a male submissive to give a male head! Oh yeah, we have plenty of hangups too.

I am NOT railing against S&M, I clearly love it, I am just not willing to put it on a pedestal either.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 19

RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex - 6/4/2006 10:53:32 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Im wondering if LA and Crappy think that Madonna whore complex is just as prevalent in the lifestyle then? It would not surprise me if this was so.

I know it's what I believe.

People in Ds are no different than people not in Ds except for the authority dynamic.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 20

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