RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look?

RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 8:36:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Pretty dramatic stuff,for a 14 y/o... The stories are getting taller and more un-believable Yeah really. [8\|] K.

Owner59 -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 8:38:57 PM)
The defenders...........more and more gullible...... I got some swamp land in Florida to sell ya but you probably already have some.[:D]

LafayetteLady -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 8:43:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle OK.. You are ALMOST THERE. That stuff you highlighted. ZIMMERMAN NEEDS TO PROVE THAT TO A JUDGE. See, now, that's another fargle. That stuff you been saying... the state has to prove that to a jury. See the difference? K. Actually you are both wrong. Unless the investigation (which indeed seems to have its own problems) shows that what Zimmerman is saying is not plausible, definitively incorrect, or simply really unlikely, it doesn't go to the courts at all. If all evidence points to Zimmerman definitively telling the truth, he doesn't have to "tell it to a judge" and make him believe it, and the state does not have to "prove" that he is lieing. That seems to be the point this case is at right now....is Zimmerman telling the truth or not? We have yet to be provided with all the evidence to make that determination. We, here, and the public at large may never be privy to all that evidence, and quite frankly, have no right to it. I hope though, that when all is said and done, the public is provided with enough information to quiet the screams of the public (that would be you fargle).

Kirata -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 8:47:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 The defenders...........more and more gullible...... I'm not defending Zimmerman, I'm attacking your phony self-righteousness. You don't give a fuck about Trayvon. After a week of round the clock threads, you can't even remember how old he was. K.

blacksword404 -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 8:49:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Now we have the brother putting out from the "Zimmerman camp" that the kid was slamming George`s head repeatedly on the concrete with George about to pass out from the blows,when with one last effort.....he moves his head to one side so his head would slam on grass instead.....one more slam into the concrete, according to the brother,and George would be brain damaged and need his brothers to spoon feed him for the rest of his life. The brother said that...............on TV last night,spoon feeding comment and all. Then,according to George(through his bro),the kid was trying to disarm George,grabbing t the gun in his waste........telling George "you are going to die that night"....... Pretty dramatic stuff,for a 14 y/o.....so of course George had to shoot the kid because after all,the kid informed George the he 'was going to die that night".See?[8\|] The stories are getting taller and more un-believable....... I for one will be watching to see what story they tell in court and comparing it to the one the Zimmerman/OJ camp is leaking to the media. 17 years old, not 14. I'm sure zimmerman didn't drive with the gun stuck in his waistband, so why was it there instead of the holster. The cops report said he took his gun and holster. It seems to me that at some point after stopping the car the gun made its way from the holster (or the seat next to him) and into his waistband. And also even though he has a holster, after he shot the kid the gun once again made its way back into his waistband.

Kirata -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 8:53:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Actually you are both wrong. I see you're feeling better. [:D] K.

Kirata -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 9:05:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 I'm sure zimmerman didn't drive with the gun stuck in his waistband, so why was it there instead of the holster. The cops report said he took his gun and holster. It seems to me that at some point after stopping the car the gun made its way from the holster (or the seat next to him) and into his waistband. And also even though he has a holster, after he shot the kid the gun once again made its way back into his waistband. The brother was talking about an IWB holster. The video is here. K.

farglebargle -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 9:14:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle OK.. You are ALMOST THERE. That stuff you highlighted. ZIMMERMAN NEEDS TO PROVE THAT TO A JUDGE. See, now, that's another fargle. That stuff you been saying... the state has to prove that to a jury. See the difference? K. NO. You don't get to a Jury until after the pretrial motions. Zimmerman's lawyer enters a motion to dismiss, based on 776.013(3) and in that motion he has to prove that he meets all the qualifications of 776.041. Only THEN, if the Judge denies the motion, will a Jury hear anything.

blacksword404 -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 9:54:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 I'm sure zimmerman didn't drive with the gun stuck in his waistband, so why was it there instead of the holster. The cops report said he took his gun and holster. It seems to me that at some point after stopping the car the gun made its way from the holster (or the seat next to him) and into his waistband. And also even though he has a holster, after he shot the kid the gun once again made its way back into his waistband. The brother was talking about an IWB holster. The video is here. K. Ok that makes sense.

Kirata -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 10:14:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle NO. You don't get to a Jury until after the pretrial motions. Zimmerman's lawyer enters a motion to dismiss, based on 776.013(3) and in that motion he has to prove that he meets all the qualifications of 776.041. Only THEN, if the Judge denies the motion, will a Jury hear anything. I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that the purpose of a preliminary hearing is to determine whether there is sufficient evidence to send the case to trial, not to adjudicate the accused's defense. If his lawyer can get critical evidence thrown out, he can move to dismiss on the basis that the prosecution no longer has a prima facie case against his client. But otherwise, I think it comes down to either a plea bargain or trial. Now I may be wrong, but I don't trust you to be right. So I'll let LafayetteLady do the slicing and dicing from here. [:)] K.

truckinslave -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 10:53:05 PM)
quote: You don't get to claim self-defense when you provoke it. Even accepting that premise, the burden of proof is on the state. His narrative is that he did not start the violence. Initiating a conversation- even initiating an argument- does not start an assault. Or justify one.

truckinslave -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 10:59:19 PM)
quote: Their job is to investigate, gather evidence and produce the results of that evidence, whatever it may be. Well..... let's go with that. However, absent a pretty clear path to shoulder the burden of "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", arrest violates the civil rights of the arrested person. And so many are clamoring for an arrest right goddamned now, almost as though a trial was a part of the investigative process.

truckinslave -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 11:02:42 PM)
quote: That stuff you highlighted. ZIMMERMAN NEEDS TO PROVE THAT TO A JUDGE. No. In order to secure a guilty verdict, the state needs to disprove Zimmermans claim, which meets the aforementioned highlighted requirements, to a jury. Zimmerman does not have to prove his innocence. All he needs to do is claim it, as he has done. The state has to prove his guilt.

truckinslave -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/30/2012 11:08:59 PM)
quote: 776.041 Use of force by aggressor — The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant ; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. Z has claimed the kid went for his gun after assaulting him and saying something to the effect that he was going to kill him. Injuries are not required for assaulted to have the reasonable belief required by the statute. Injuries are yet another strawman.

LafayetteLady -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/31/2012 12:34:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: Their job is to investigate, gather evidence and produce the results of that evidence, whatever it may be. Well..... let's go with that. However, absent a pretty clear path to shoulder the burden of "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", arrest violates the civil rights of the arrested person. And so many are clamoring for an arrest right goddamned now, almost as though a trial was a part of the investigative process. Not necessary for an arrest, and no civil rights violation would exist at all. "Guilty beyond reasonable doubt" is for a conviction.

LafayetteLady -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/31/2012 12:45:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle NO. You don't get to a Jury until after the pretrial motions. Zimmerman's lawyer enters a motion to dismiss, based on 776.013(3) and in that motion he has to prove that he meets all the qualifications of 776.041. Only THEN, if the Judge denies the motion, will a Jury hear anything. I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that the purpose of a preliminary hearing is to determine whether there is sufficient evidence to send the case to trial, not to adjudicate the accused's defense. If his lawyer can get critical evidence thrown out, he can move to dismiss on the basis that the prosecution no longer has a prima facie case against his client. But otherwise, I think it comes down to either a plea bargain or trial. Now I may be wrong, but I don't trust you to be right. So I'll let LafayetteLady do the slicing and dicing from here. [:)] K. Well, the hearing to determine if the evidence exists is a "probable cause hearing." The main problem here, is that the public does not have access to all the information. Of course, we aren't rightfully entitled to it, we just would like to have it, lol. The bottom line is that this case will be presented to the Grand Jury on April 10th. Zimmerman won't be explaining anything there, neither will his attorney. We won't see it on television, they are closed proceedings. There is no defense presented to the Grand Jury. Depending on the state, the Grand Jury may or may not be permitted to ask questions. I'm not sure where Florida falls on that. Essentially, the District Attorney will present the evidence it has which it believes warrants an indictment. They are not obligated to present any information at all about what Zimmerman says happened or didn't happen. If they present witnesses (again varies by state I think. Not sure on that one), there is no cross examination, there is nothing more than the DA asking questions, most of which will be worded in a way that likely will require just yes or no answers, without elaboration. I will be very surprised if there isn't a Grand Jury indictment since there is only damning evidence presented. Even if Zimmerman's attorney is permitted to sit in on the indictment hearing, he won't be permitted to speak or offer any defense. Basically, what the Grand Jury achieves is the ability to indict and arrest prior to the investigation being complete. It will also, in this case, help to quell public outrage that is rampant at the moment.

truckinslave -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/31/2012 1:35:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: Their job is to investigate, gather evidence and produce the results of that evidence, whatever it may be. Well..... let's go with that. However, absent a pretty clear path to shoulder the burden of "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", arrest violates the civil rights of the arrested person. And so many are clamoring for an arrest right goddamned now, almost as though a trial was a part of the investigative process. Not necessary for an arrest, and no civil rights violation would exist at all. "Guilty beyond reasonable doubt" is for a conviction. What exactly do imagine "unlawful arrest" refers to? Science fiction? Granted that "probable cause" is a lighter burden, it is still and yet a burden. Absent forensics contradicting his narrative, given that an eyewitness supports it... the State of Florida has already basically said once that there was not enough evidence to arrest the man (i.e. not enough to establish probable cause that a crime has even been committed). And if they were there, they surely would not hesitate.

LafayetteLady -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/31/2012 2:02:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: Their job is to investigate, gather evidence and produce the results of that evidence, whatever it may be. Well..... let's go with that. However, absent a pretty clear path to shoulder the burden of "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", arrest violates the civil rights of the arrested person. And so many are clamoring for an arrest right goddamned now, almost as though a trial was a part of the investigative process. Not necessary for an arrest, and no civil rights violation would exist at all. "Guilty beyond reasonable doubt" is for a conviction. What exactly do imagine "unlawful arrest" refers to? Science fiction? Granted that "probable cause" is a lighter burden, it is still and yet a burden. Absent forensics contradicting his narrative, given that an eyewitness supports it... the State of Florida has already basically said once that there was not enough evidence to arrest the man (i.e. not enough to establish probable cause that a crime has even been committed). And if they were there, they surely would not hesitate. There is an internal dispute within the police department as to whether or not he should have been charged. Problem here is that people don't seem to grasp the concept that he was merely detained, not "arrested." Regardless, even if they said they didn't have "enough" that night, that can easily change at any time. If the police decided not to charge him that night, the DA could have told them to do so the next day. Even with a DA saying that night not to charge, that DA's boss could have said to do so the next day or whenever. Contrary to popular belief, police really are not knowledgeable when it comes to the details regarding the laws and what will stand and won't.

farglebargle -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/31/2012 4:10:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle NO. You don't get to a Jury until after the pretrial motions. Zimmerman's lawyer enters a motion to dismiss, based on 776.013(3) and in that motion he has to prove that he meets all the qualifications of 776.041. Only THEN, if the Judge denies the motion, will a Jury hear anything. I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that the purpose of a preliminary hearing is to determine whether there is sufficient evidence to send the case to trial, not to adjudicate the accused's defense. If his lawyer can get critical evidence thrown out, he can move to dismiss on the basis that the prosecution no longer has a prima facie case against his client. But otherwise, I think it comes down to either a plea bargain or trial. Now I may be wrong, but I don't trust you to be right. So I'll let LafayetteLady do the slicing and dicing from here. [:)] K. Preliminary Hearing CAN mean Arraignment, but it's also a generic term for pretrials. There are in theory many pre-trial hearings, depending on what motions the attorneys submit. COMMONLY, the first hearing is just to get the defendant to waive their rights to speedy trial and stuff, so it's understandable. Your opinions are all well and good, but they don't match Florida Criminal Procedure Law. And that's where all of my info comes straight from. Once we get to real courts, and this nitwit 'representing' Zimmerman is replaced with a real litigator, the FIRST motion is going to be to dismiss under 776.013(3), with as many details as they can get to get them over .041. The prima-fascie case here is a slam dunk. Manslaughter requires only two elements, and they're uncontested. So that means that Zimmerman needs to mount an active defense of himself. And any lawyer who doesn't open with a motion to dismiss for self-defense GIVEN HIS CLIENT'S CLAIMS is committing malpractice.

farglebargle -> RE: How close to getting beaten to death does this guy look? (3/31/2012 4:21:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: Their job is to investigate, gather evidence and produce the results of that evidence, whatever it may be. Well..... let's go with that. However, absent a pretty clear path to shoulder the burden of "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", arrest violates the civil rights of the arrested person. And so many are clamoring for an arrest right goddamned now, almost as though a trial was a part of the investigative process. Not necessary for an arrest, and no civil rights violation would exist at all. "Guilty beyond reasonable doubt" is for a conviction. What exactly do imagine "unlawful arrest" refers to? Science fiction? Granted that "probable cause" is a lighter burden, it is still and yet a burden. Absent forensics contradicting his narrative, given that an eyewitness supports it... the State of Florida has already basically said once that there was not enough evidence to arrest the man (i.e. not enough to establish probable cause that a crime has even been committed). And if they were there, they surely would not hesitate. There is an internal dispute within the police department as to whether or not he should have been charged. Problem here is that people don't seem to grasp the concept that he was merely detained, not "arrested." Regardless, even if they said they didn't have "enough" that night, that can easily change at any time. If the police decided not to charge him that night, the DA could have told them to do so the next day. Even with a DA saying that night not to charge, that DA's boss could have said to do so the next day or whenever. Contrary to popular belief, police really are not knowledgeable when it comes to the details regarding the laws and what will stand and won't. That's not quite what I'm seeing. There is no dispute in the police department. ALL of the rank and file know that Zimmerman should have been arrested. The issue here is "Why did Chief Bill Lee order Zimmerman released DESPITE the slam-dunk on manslaughter and standard operating procedure?" That's why Lee got kicked out of the job, and you have cops filing CYA Affidavits. It's not that the police fucked up. It's that they were told to cover it up by the Chief and -- I feel -- they INTENTIONALLY fucked up the cover up. I can't wait for the FBI/DOJ investigation into this mess. And the local DA got replaced because THEY'RE the ones who told Bill Lee to cut Zimmerman loose. Understand that one thing. You can't judge the Zimmerman case based on what royal screw-ups the Sanford PD committed. I understand all the delays because the State Police are checking literally EVERYTHING that came out of SPD because they can't be trusted at all at this point. The wheels of justice grind slowly, but grind they do.

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