War on Drugs "killing our children" (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 8:07:04 AM)

"THE Foreign Affairs Minister, Bob Carr, is among a group of prominent Australians who have declared the ''war on drugs'' a failure in the most significant challenge to drug laws in decades.
''The prohibition of illicit drugs is killing and criminalising our children and we are letting it happen,'' says a report released today by the group, which includes the former federal police chief Mick Palmer, the former NSW director of public prosecutions Nicholas Cowdery, QC, the former West Australian premier Geoff Gallop, a former Defence Department secretary, Paul Barratt, the former federal health ministers Michael Wooldridge and Peter Baume, and the drug addiction expert [Dr]Alex Wodak
."


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/drugs-war-a-failure-that-bred-criminals-20120402-1w8v3.html#ixzz1qtZWjSiB

A group of distinguished Australians and drug policy experts point to the futility of the failed war on drugs and call again for decriminalisation of drugs. Not the first time, nor will it be the last.

The sad fact is that nothing is likely to happen. How long must people carry on dying until we realise the overwhelming failures of prohibition and adopt sensible drug policies everywhere?




Kirata -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 8:14:11 AM)


More...

Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

K.




tj444 -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 10:23:22 AM)

Jmo.. The push comes from the US.. The govt pushes other countries into the war on drugs,.. And they succeed more in some counties than others,. I know they try to push Canada into their war,.. If not for the US, pot would be legal in Canada..and the US would not be able to put Canadians in their jails for the oh so serious act of selling pot seeds.. [8|]




PeonForHer -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 12:10:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The sad fact is that nothing is likely to happen. How long must people carry on dying until we realise the overwhelming failures of prohibition and adopt sensible drug policies everywhere?


As long as the politicians remain too spineless to risk electoral disaster by looking 'soft on drugs' to the large numbers of people whose assumption remains unwaveringly one of "Ban the drug, punish the sellers and users'. We've had similar reports here; no government has done has taken any notice of them.




lovmuffin -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 5:52:29 PM)

I'm all for it. The war on drugs has filled up our jails and militarized police in many areas of law enforcement.




erieangel -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 6:02:03 PM)

The saddest fact is that it is the poor, the mentally ill (90% of mentally ill people live in poverty) and the disenfranchised who turn to drugs. Being high helps to make a bad life lived in uncomfortable, unlivable surroundings seem not so bad after all.





TheHeretic -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 8:24:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

The saddest fact is that it is the poor, the mentally ill (90% of mentally ill people live in poverty) and the disenfranchised who turn to drugs. Being high helps to make a bad life lived in uncomfortable, unlivable surroundings seem not so bad after all.





Now, Erieangel, I'm all in for legalizing drugs, and fully agree that the "war" against them is a total failure.

This, though, is just a little bit of crazy bleeding heart, over the top, don't you think? Plenty of druggies are poor because they spend all their money on drugs. Plenty of those "uncomfortable, unliveable surroundings" could be much improved by people getting their stoned asses of the couch, and cleaning up the health and safety code violations in the kitchen.




Kirata -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 8:56:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

The saddest fact is that it is the poor, the mentally ill (90% of mentally ill people live in poverty) and the disenfranchised who turn to drugs.

Tons more people smoke weed than are poor, and nobody who's poor is doing much cocaine unless they're only "poor" because they don't have any money left for anything else.

K.




erieangel -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 9:28:19 PM)

I work in mental health. Do you know how many mentally ill people have co-occurring conditions? Of course you don't because suggesting that drug abuse is anything other than a life style choice is bleeding heart nonsense. According to SAMHSA (The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration) approximately 8.9 million American adults have a co-occurring disorder. Only 7.4% receive treatment for both conditions and up to 55.8% receive no treatment at all.

With the number of people in our prisons due to drug use/sales/buying or for crimes committed to support the co-occurring condition, it is easy to see why more than half the population who have co-occurring conditions do not get treatment. Prison is the last place a user should be because it does nothing to promote recovery from the addiction or from the possible underlying mental illness.

And despite your obvious contempt for those who are suffering or simply poor, many people with co-occurring disorders don't even have a couch, or a kitchen for that matter because they are homeless. But if only they would get their acts together, get clean and get jobs, right?

And Kirata, no poor people don't do cocaine much. What many do is steal prescription drugs. One of my clients had his psychiatric medication stolen not once but twice--his meds have a street value of $30 per pill. We know they drugs were stolen because this kid wouldn't know where or how to sell them himself. But the wealth or lack of it among is beside the point I was trying to make.

Most street drugs need to be decriminalized simply to get those in need of treatment into treatment rather than jail cells.

http://www.samhsa.gov/co-occurring/default.aspx

http://www.samhsa.gov/co-occurring/topics/homelessness/index.aspx

http://www.samhsa.gov/co-occurring/topics/criminal-justice/index.aspx






Kirata -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 9:47:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Most street drugs need to be decriminalized simply to get those in need of treatment into treatment rather than jail cells.

Granting that some do, I hope you're not assuming that people who do drugs need "treatment," or even that treatment is always preferable. The current DSM, if rigorously applied, would have virtually everybody in "treatment" for one thing or another. Not to mention that most treatment modalities are either pharmacological themselves, or have a success rate approximately equal to talking to a friendly bartender.

K.




TheHeretic -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 10:19:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I work in mental health. Do you know ...



And I lost a brother into schizophrenia. Yeah. I'm familiar with drug use among the mentally ill. Addiction and recovery? Yeah, I've got a handle on that one as well. Been there, done that. I bet I'd really piss you off in thread about 12-step cult programs.

Despite your obvious contempt for people who agree with you in the wrong way, I'm going to keep on acknowledging that drugs cause all kinds of problems, including self inflicted ones, as I make my case that it is still better to legalize it.

Let's be clear. You say this as if it is some monstrous position to take,

quote:

But if only they would get their acts together, get clean and get jobs, right?


I say, Hell Yes. For some, that is exactly what needs to happen. Isn't that the goal of the treatment programs you like so much? What I always say is that drug treatment is useless if the recipient doesn't want to stop, and an expensive option if they do.

For the sympathetic minority you want to treat as representative of the whole, I'm sure the tax money we'll be raising is gonna help.




TheHeretic -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 10:41:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

What I always say is that drug treatment is useless if the recipient doesn't want to stop, and an expensive option if they do.



Note on the above. Don't read that with socialized glasses on, and from a top down perspective. I'm not suggesting drug treatment is an expensive option that should be done away with by the powers on high. I'm a conservative. Individuals, and sometimes families, should be able to make choices. Air conditioning in a car is an expensive option, but I certainly wouldn't want to do without it.




erieangel -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/2/2012 11:02:43 PM)

I hear you. I was mistaken and took your meaning the wrong way. Sometimes that happens on boards such as these. As for people getting their acts together, usually they can't do it by themselves. And even with help it sometimes takes an unbelievable long time. I wanted to change. I wanted to be a better person and especially a better mother than I was--it still took me more than 15 years to recover from my mental illness and I didn't have the co-occurring disorder to deal with.





tweakabelle -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/3/2012 12:01:57 AM)

Some interesting data about the cost of the 'War on Drugs' in the USA in this piece by Fareed Zakaria:

“Mass incarceration on a scale almost unexampled in human history is a fundamental fact of our country today,” writes the New Yorker’s Adam Gopnik. “Over all, there are now more people under ‘correctional supervision’ in America - more than 6 million - than were in the Gulag Archipelago under Stalin at its height.”
Is this hyperbole? Here are the facts. The U.S. has 760 prisoners per 100,000 citizens. That’s not just many more than in most other developed countries but seven to 10 times as many. Japan has 63 per 100,000, Germany has 90, France has 96, South Korea has 97, and ­Britain - with a rate among the ­highest - has 153....
This wide gap between the U.S. and the rest of the world is relatively recent. In 1980 the U.S.’s prison population was about 150 per 100,000 adults. It has more than quadrupled since then. So something has happened in the past 30 years to push millions of Americans into prison.
That something, of course, is the war on drugs. Drug convictions went from 15 inmates per 100,000 adults in 1980 to 148 in 1996, an almost tenfold increase. More than half of America’s federal inmates today are in prison on drug convictions. In 2009 alone, 1.66 million Americans were arrested on drug charges, more than were arrested on assault or larceny charges. And 4 of 5 of those arrests were simply for possession....
Bipartisan forces have created the trend that we see. Conservatives and liberals love to sound tough on crime, and both sides agreed in the 1990s to a wide range of new federal infractions, many of them carrying mandatory sentences for time in state or federal prison. And as always in American politics, there is the money trail. Many state prisons are now run by private companies that have powerful lobbyists in state capitals. These firms can create jobs in places where steady work is rare; in many states, they have also helped create a conveyor belt of cash for prisons from treasuries to outlying counties.
Partly as a result, the money that states spend on prisons has risen at six times the rate of spending on higher education in the past 20 years. In 2011, California spent $9.6 billion on prisons vs. $5.7 billion on the UC system and state colleges. Since 1980, California has built one college campus and 21 prisons. A college student costs the state $8,667 per year; a prisoner costs it $45,006 a year.
The results are gruesome at every ­level. We are creating a vast prisoner under­class in this country at huge expense, increasingly unable to function in normal society, all in the name of a war we have already lost....
Read the full article at TIME.com.

Isn't it shocking that more Americans are under "correctional supervision" - approx 6 million or so, of which approx 2.5 million are currently serving time in prison - than were in the Soviet gulags at their worst? What an appalling statistic.




tng -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/3/2012 12:46:39 AM)

So "Land of the Free" is kind of just a metaphor then, right?




LafayetteLady -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/3/2012 12:57:22 AM)

Sorry, but I don't see legalizing most street drugs as a way to improve situations.

What would be the good that comes from legalizing heroin or cocaine, other than people would no longer be imprisoned for it?  I can see the concept of changing the laws that drug addicts receive treatment rather than incarceration, but that isn't what you or others are calling for.

Legitimate treatment drugs need to become more affordable and available for those who need it, without a doubt.

However, my former roommate is a die hard pot head.  He also has several mental health issues.  He is under the mistaken belief that marijuana "helps" many of his mental health issues.  One look at how he lives will tell you that this simply isn't the truth.  All marijuana does is allow him to convince himself that he doesn't need to work on his problems.

There seems to be this method of thinking that if street drugs were legalized, it would promote more responsibility in the users because they wouldn't have to hide.  Simply not true.




tng -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/3/2012 1:04:30 AM)

Why is drug use a problem?




kitkat105 -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/3/2012 1:13:02 AM)

I thought that was interesting, I heard it on the radio on the way home. I actually respect Bob Carr a fair bit for saying it.

I'm not sure how I feel. Drugs destroy lives and cause a lot of problems for people. I'm unsure how decriminalising them will improve that. I echo eerieangel's thoughts on dual diagnosis patients and how much more difficult it will be to care for them if they have free range on whatever drugs they desire.




LafayetteLady -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/3/2012 1:29:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tng

Why is drug use a problem?


Really?  If that is a serious question, there is no way to respond to you as you obviously lack the level of understanding necessary to understand.




tng -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/3/2012 1:30:29 AM)

In other words you don't have an answer -- didn't think you would.




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