RE: War on Drugs "killing our children"

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Hippiekinkster -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/6/2012 7:43:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Nobody is willing to do what it will take to end the cartels, except that some are willing to legalize and thus take away their income base. From there is a long chain of dominoes that will end in effective near eradication of most forms of drug abuse, and complete eradication of the crime issue and associated costs. I underlined the point made above that is overlooked, or rather, not even understood by most. With legalization or at least significant decriminalization (no felony) the price of cocaine, heroin and meth would drop pretty quickly to a level that would make both production and long distance transport not worth the while. The cartels, not willing to make the same money exporting cocaine as they would exporting oranges, would be gone from that venture within a year. Turning to the subject of cost/benefit, the tremendous amount of savings to be had from vast reduction in court and prison systems cost would more than pay for treatment for those who need it even as required at today's levels. This aside from the fact that a large number of those arrested have steady jobs or attend school full time, this contribution to society being thereby removed. As the use and whatever abuse decline due to less supply, less treatment will be needed, and along with the reduction in associated crime (arising from the illegality-enhanced profit more than the drug use itself), before long we would be seeing a noticeable change for the better in the poorer neighborhoods and certainly in local and state budgets. Finally, only a small percentage of those who partake of alcohol OR whatever illicit substance in their life become addicted, in any event the legal status of the substance in question having no bearing on that outcome (or not) whatsoever. There are less addicts per capita in Amsterdam than in New Amsterdam (NYC) by far. I've argued that the cartels would disappear upon decrim for years. I've done so here many times. I've posted the link to Bear's essay about Black Markets more than once. http://www.thebear.org/essays.html#anchor433500 The author knows a bit about black markets. ☺ I'd say that most opioid-dependant people can function pretty well if they have a stable supply and that supply is affordable. Over time, the euphoric effects diminish or vanish, and analgesia and constipation are what remain. Well, and generally a better mood - opioids act as antidepressants for many people, and were once prescribed for such. The most dangerous drugs are those that can produce sociopathic/psychotic states; alcohol, cocaine, and methamphetamine. Cocaine and M-amp cause (essentially) dopamine toxicity and sleep-deprivation. Alcohol acts primarily on GABA receptors and is basically an anaesthetic which first produces loss of judgment and labile mood. I saw a doco on Neflix wherein 7 med students were followed during and after med school. The ER physician said that alcohol was by far the worst drug he encountered. I say re-legalize MJ and peyote and decriminalize all else.

TheHeretic -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/6/2012 9:38:22 PM)
Ok. So let's talk a bit about human misery, and give an honest look at the suffering drugs can bring to into individual lives. If we were to legalize along the lines I propose, we will be seeing a lot more of it, or at least a lot more of certain varieties. quote: Drug abusers destroy families and relationships... They often abuse their children or love ones... When high they often hurt themselves AND others...They spread disease...does that hurt others?...Children or often born deformed by abusing mothers... does that hurt someone else... I could go on and on The argument quoted above seems like a good place to start. Lots of things can destroy families and relationships, including CollarMe I'm sure, but yes, a family member or significant other using drugs, abusing drugs, addicted to drugs, is an excellent way to rip those relationships up. Ok. Abuse of family and loved ones. Again lots of things can lead to that, and drug abuse might be just a symptom of the same underlying problem, rather than causative, but let's go ahead and stipulate that child neglect because mom/dad is high, absolutely counts. I'll also toss in that many drugs may cause mood alterations that may get ugly. Then there is meth. Not much "may" about meth transforming the nicest people into complete shits. The disease spreading is basically about sharing needles, which is a result of prohibition. A lot of overdoses are the result of people not knowing what potency they are dealing with. Both problems solved real quick by legalization. Overall, access to properly made chemicals is going to reduce the physical toll of drug abuse, on the abusers. It was Thalidomide that gave us the deformed babies, I think, and that was a completely legal, doctor prescribed, pharmacuetical. Babies born to addicted mothers can have all sorts of problems, though. Here is the thing. If every illegal drug vanished from our streets and society tomorrow, families would still crumble, assholes would still abuse, disease would still spread, babies would still be born after lousy prenatal care. Drugs are just one aspect of the far larger issues raised. What other social negatives do drugs, and the war on drugs bring into our lives? Neighborhoods where children can't play outside, without a risk of getting shot in the drive-bys. Families torn apart when mommy or daddy gets arrested, and shipped off to into the criminal justice system. A massive financial drain on our police, courts, jails, and prisons. A whole subculture that lives in casual disregard for the rule of law. For those who care about such things, a systematic gutting of the whole 4th Amendment notion that our we are secure in our homes. I say, we can better address the negative impacts of drug use on individuals with education, and easy access to treatment and support. We already have laws about people who don't properly care for, or abuse, their kids. Just because it isn't a crime to get high anymore, won't make it an excuse when children's services comes knocking. With the criminal element gone, families in crisis can reach out for help, without the fear of making the whole situation worse.

Politesub53 -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 4:26:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer My father was in the police here in the UK- he says the same. 'Those pot-smokers never got violent. Waste of time our going after them. I'd never nick one if I could avoid it. I'd force them to get haircuts if I had my way, mind.'. True but many long term pot smokers, especially those who started in early teens, end up with mental health problems. Add to that, while the users dont get violent, well not often, those making money from it do. Regulate it and tax it, if someone who makes money off it gets violent, take away their pot selling license. Wait, so you just proved that where pot is concerned, making it illegal is the cause of the violence? Thanks for making my argument for me dude! Incredible that you can thank me for making your case, without mentioning the first part of my post. Peons quote regards moderation is pretty much on the money.

MrBukani -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 4:59:44 AM)
There are less addicts per capita in Amsterdam than in New Amsterdam (NYC) by far. Thats because we got the good shit! And if you legalize MJ you seperate the drugmarkets. There is very little streetdealers here selling pot. I would rather have my daughter got to a safe haven like our coffeeshops to get some cannabis, then she has to go out in the street lookin for shady dealers who push coke and heroine also. But what the hell I care. Its not my biz anymore. Keep your american friends locked up for a blunt. I dont fuckin care anymore if you wanna spent money on wars and jails. I rather spend that shit on healthcare.

tj444 -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 5:27:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani There are less addicts per capita in Amsterdam than in New Amsterdam (NYC) by far. Thats because we got the good shit! And if you legalize MJ you seperate the drugmarkets. There is very little streetdealers here selling pot. I would rather have my daughter got to a safe haven like our coffeeshops to get some cannabis, then she has to go out in the street lookin for shady dealers who push coke and heroine also. But what the hell I care. Its not my biz anymore. Keep your american friends locked up for a blunt. I dont fuckin care anymore if you wanna spent money on wars and jails. I rather spend that shit on healthcare. not to mention those drug dealers that lace pot with other addictive drugs to get people hooked.. [>:]

PeonForHer -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 5:42:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 not to mention those drug dealers that lace pot with other addictive drugs to get people hooked.. [>:] Did that ever happen? I ask because, some while ago, I read (or heard) that this was just one of those urban myths put about by the 'Avoid that Satanic Killer Weed!' brigade. (You know, similar sorts to those nutcases who, nowadays, regularly go on about 'They're going to ban Christmas!') There was never any need to lace pot with anything to get a good customer-base going and, anyway, it would have been uneconomic: anything addictive you might have wanted to put in pot would have been a lot more expensive than the pot itself.

kdsub -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 7:48:03 AM)
All you say is true...but legalizing drugs will not change the tragedy of drug addiction. Needles will still be shared even if readily available under legalization. Pregnant mothers will still take drugs legal or not. Families and relationships will still be broken. All that will happen is there will be more of the above. Drugs will be cheaper...easy to get... there will not be as large a stigma about there use...people will still die. There will be benefits as you have pointed out but they will not outweigh the negatives…at least in my opinion. I would like to see changes as well but the direction I would go is in treatment. I would like to see state and federal sponsored free treatment centers that include a psychological evaluation. I would like to see family support and the patients jobs protected while in treatment. Now here I would get radical…but as a father affected by a daughters drug addiction fuck um. I would like to see even more stringent drug laws. I believe the way to stop the selling of drugs is to make a second offense for selling and distributing drugs for PROFIT a capital offense. If you put the fear of death behind the law rather than a slap on the hand I will bet there would be a massive reduction in drug selling. No need to fill up our jails…plant a few in the ground and this nonsense will slow. I hate radicals and I know I sound like one but you have to experience the tragedy of addiction to understand. Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 8:18:50 AM)
Butch, many of us have experienced the effects of addiction and do realize. We also realize that jail isnt always the answer for a user. As long as its criminal to use, it will be a stigma to seek treatment. What is wasted on time in the courts, costs of convictions, jail and prison expences, appeals, attorneys and such could be better spent on treatment and education.

SoftBonds -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 8:33:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub All you say is true...but legalizing drugs will not change the tragedy of drug addiction. Needles will still be shared even if readily available under legalization. Pregnant mothers will still take drugs legal or not. Families and relationships will still be broken. All that will happen is there will be more of the above. Drugs will be cheaper...easy to get... there will not be as large a stigma about there use...people will still die. There will be benefits as you have pointed out but they will not outweigh the negatives…at least in my opinion. I would like to see changes as well but the direction I would go is in treatment. I would like to see state and federal sponsored free treatment centers that include a psychological evaluation. I would like to see family support and the patients jobs protected while in treatment. Now here I would get radical…but as a father affected by a daughters drug addiction fuck um. I would like to see even more stringent drug laws. I believe the way to stop the selling of drugs is to make a second offense for selling and distributing drugs for PROFIT a capital offense. If you put the fear of death behind the law rather than a slap on the hand I will bet there would be a massive reduction in drug selling. No need to fill up our jails…plant a few in the ground and this nonsense will slow. I hate radicals and I know I sound like one but you have to experience the tragedy of addiction to understand. Butch An interesting point I learned about in one of my Econ classes was the effect of probable expense. If a drug dealer is looking at a year in prison for dealing, and 20 years for murder, he is unlikely to kill to deal drugs or to avoid getting arrested. If a drug dealer is looking at 20 years for dealing, and 5 years for murder (as drug sentences have gone up, other sentences have been reduced by parole boards to make room for dealers), he will be very likely to murder while dealing drugs. Likewise, in the former case, he has a reason to try not to allow customers to OD, since he could get a stiff punishment for negligent homicide, but in the latter case, fuck-em. So a lot of the drug related violence, Overdoses, etc. are the result of cracking down on drugs. Even if they remained illegal, making the punishments for drug dealing less than the punishments for aggravated assault, manslaughter, and rape (by some combination of lower sentences for the former and stricter sentences for the latter) would restore a lot of sanity to our streets.

kdsub -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 8:46:58 AM)
Hi Tazzy I agree... I just want mandatory treatment not incarceration...except for the dealers and pushers...I think we need the capital punishment... Make the penalty for destroying lives and killing the same as for murder. Butch

kdsub -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 8:48:02 AM)
quote: likely to murder while dealing drugs Not if he is dead Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 9:08:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Hi Tazzy I agree... I just want mandatory treatment not incarceration...except for the dealers and pushers...I think we need the capital punishment... Make the penalty for destroying lives and killing the same as for murder. Butch Well, without users you dont have pushers. Murder doesnt require at least some responsibility on the part of the addicted. Which, for me, makes a huge difference.

kdsub -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 9:10:28 AM)
People kill today for a pack of bubblegum and $50 from a quick shop. Making a death penalty for drug pushers will not in my opinion increase violence. I think fewer stressed out victims robbing and killing at QT's for a fix will actually decrease violence. Butch

kdsub -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 9:18:55 AM)
The seller has all the responsibility... it is the beginning of addiction. Without their willing participation in making a profit off the misery of others there would be no drug problem. Does it really make sense to let drug companies make huge profits off of providing this same misery that pushers do today. Who will that help? There must be some alternative solutions… I provided one… not perfect but better than what we have today. I just wish folks would get serious and stop the fairy tale of with legal drugs all problems will go away and I can party all I want. Butch

tweakabelle -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 9:19:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 not to mention those drug dealers that lace pot with other addictive drugs to get people hooked.. [>:] Did that ever happen? I ask because, some while ago, I read (or heard) that this was just one of those urban myths put about by the 'Avoid that Satanic Killer Weed!' brigade. (You know, similar sorts to those nutcases who, nowadays, regularly go on about 'They're going to ban Christmas!') There was never any need to lace pot with anything to get a good customer-base going and, anyway, it would have been uneconomic: anything addictive you might have wanted to put in pot would have been a lot more expensive than the pot itself. I'm inclined to view this as an urban myth too PFH. I've never heard of a case of this happening. All the dealers of 'hard' drugs I've encountered over the years have been very paranoid about dealing with new people outside their current customer base. From their point of view, every new person the sell to is a potential risk, increasing the chances of their being busted. So the last thing these people want is their activities known to people outside their trusted circle of customers. I note that there is a suggestion that the death penalty might be effective. The death penalty has been in use in almost all SE Asian countries - Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore Indonesia etc - for decades, as well as places like China and Iran. It hasn't made an iota of difference. All of these countries are still either major producers or distributors of drugs with enormous resident populations of addicts. So, there is no evidence that the death penalty has had any discernible effect and drugs continue to be produced and trafficked. Why? A gram of pure heroin costs $1.50-2 in SE Asia and retails in Sydney, after cutting, for over a $1000. As long as profit margins of these dimensions exist, there will be people who are prepared to take the risks. Making heroin available at cost - c$2 per gram - is the most effective way of stopping the trade. It will remove all the rewards - there will no point in trying to smuggle heroin into Western countries. There is a kind of death penalty in operation in Mexico - where some 45,000 people have been murdered as part of the drug trade- and other South/Central American countries. It has had no discernible effect on the flow of drugs into the USA. What will stop that trade is the removal of the reward by legalising drugs in the USA and thereby destroying the cartel's/gangster's profits

SoftBonds -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 9:33:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub People kill today for a pack of bubblegum and $50 from a quick shop. Making a death penalty for drug pushers will not in my opinion increase violence. I think fewer stressed out victims robbing and killing at QT's for a fix will actually decrease violence. Butch Well, in that case, lets get really serious about the war on drugs. Capital punishment for users would save us a lot of money, if we used "war," tactics instead of legal tactics. When we seize drugs, mix them with Cyanide or other poisons, then return them to the street. We'd have the war on drugs won in a matter of weeks.

kdsub -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 9:39:47 AM)
And I thought I was getting radical...lol.. I know the satire was directed at me but I do believe users are victims and need treatment... People who take advantage of these victims for profit deserve the needle...a square one. Butch

tj444 -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 9:44:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 not to mention those drug dealers that lace pot with other addictive drugs to get people hooked.. [>:] Did that ever happen? I ask because, some while ago, I read (or heard) that this was just one of those urban myths put about by the 'Avoid that Satanic Killer Weed!' brigade. (You know, similar sorts to those nutcases who, nowadays, regularly go on about 'They're going to ban Christmas!') There was never any need to lace pot with anything to get a good customer-base going and, anyway, it would have been uneconomic: anything addictive you might have wanted to put in pot would have been a lot more expensive than the pot itself. I am sure the satanic weed group use that as a reason to not smoke pot but I spent most of my adult life in Vancouver, BC and that is Pot Central (the best & most diverse pot in North America).. lots of people grow there, lots of development of new strains, etc and imo, some do lace their pot, not necessarily to get people hooked on harder drugs but perhaps to make people think their pot is better than other dealers or growers.. there is a lot of competition.. lol And while I have never smoked pot ever myself.. I did know people that did say after smoking certain pot that the high they got was more than a freakin normal pot high (even with the much higher thc levels), that happened to my ex once too.. and some smokers laced their own pot themselves to get a higher high.. So, yes, it does happen but maybe not everywhere.. "No marijuana is the same; dealers can mix marijuana with other substances, from oregano to being laced with PCP, which means you can’t rely on what you are getting" http://oade.nd.edu/educate-yourself-drugs/marijuana-or-cannabis-sativa/ "By The Vancouver ProvinceJanuary 27, 2006 Meth-laced pot a huge problem It's buyer beware when it comes to B.C. bud. Both police and a leading psychiatrist said yesterday they are beginning to see evidence of marijuana laced with highly addictive crystal meth. Dr. Bill MacEwan's advice? "Know your supplier. Know where the pot is coming from." MacEwan, a psychiatrist at St. Paul's Hospital who also heads the schizophrenia program in the psychiatry department at the University of B.C., says he's seeing patients who claim they only smoke marijuana but in whose systems crystal meth is found. Other doctors working in drug treatment have told him they're also seeing strung-out patients who have smoked meth-laced pot, MacEwan says. Knowing that pot is being laced with crystal meth is worrisome for those in the health-care field, he notes." http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=82e58213-6a9a-4ab9-bfe3-9b4894296902 eta- for those dealers that do lace pot with meth.. its bait and switch.. once you are hooked then ya gotta pay the higher price of meth.. so in the long run the dealer will make more off his customers.. From what i understand of meth.. it doesnt take long or much for that to happen, for some people it only takes once to get hooked on that shite..

Real0ne -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 9:54:16 AM)
does a declaration of war create an exception and allow your country to circumvent the constitution like it does in america? I think they should declare a war on evil thats a war they can have forever too. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle "THE Foreign Affairs Minister, Bob Carr, is among a group of prominent Australians who have declared the ''war on drugs'' a failure in the most significant challenge to drug laws in decades. ''The prohibition of illicit drugs is killing and criminalising our children and we are letting it happen,'' says a report released today by the group, which includes the former federal police chief Mick Palmer, the former NSW director of public prosecutions Nicholas Cowdery, QC, the former West Australian premier Geoff Gallop, a former Defence Department secretary, Paul Barratt, the former federal health ministers Michael Wooldridge and Peter Baume, and the drug addiction expert [Dr]Alex Wodak." Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/drugs-war-a-failure-that-bred-criminals-20120402-1w8v3.html#ixzz1qtZWjSiB A group of distinguished Australians and drug policy experts point to the futility of the failed war on drugs and call again for decriminalisation of drugs. Not the first time, nor will it be the last. The sad fact is that nothing is likely to happen. How long must people carry on dying until we realise the overwhelming failures of prohibition and adopt sensible drug policies everywhere?

TheHeretic -> RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" (4/7/2012 10:10:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub you have to experience the tragedy of addiction to understand. Butch I do know the tragedy of addiction, Butch. Been there, done that. I lived the life, among the people who live the life. I've seen a 27 year old go have a line before heading off to rent a movie, and dropping dead of a heart attack in the "action" aisle of blockbuster video. How about a permanently brain damaged, and crippled guy who was once an electrical engineering major, until he was deliberately broadsided on his motorcycle in a robbery, over a few thousand dollars? How about a perfectly functional mother and addict (and there are such people) being stopped for a burned out tail light, and her healthy, happy, kids being sent into one of those nightmare foster homes that make the news once in a while? These are all tragedies, Butch, and like the tragedy you experienced, they are happening after we have been at war with drugs for 40 years. What we have been doing isn't working. It makes some parts of the problem far worse. We don't have a drug problem because of dealers, we have dealers because people want drugs. I don't know if you read Hippie's link or not, but I think Bear is dead wrong to claim that legalization won't produce more users. Now it's a testament to the failure of what we have been doing, that anyone who currently wants to be a druggie can be, but when we open the gates, there is going to be a party. What needs to be crafted is an approach that reduces the harm they do to themselves and others, and an approach that does far less harm to the rest of society as a side-effect. Some drugs are addictive, and some people are prone to addiction. We need to separate the two in our approach to treatment, and how we regulate the industry. Part of the problem is that the drugs which are addictive in their nature are mighty useful and desireable drugs. They replace pain with euphoria, provide energy, and a sense of well-being, and keep your dick hard for hours. It is possible to use without becoming addicted, but the danger is always there. These substances need to be subject to monitoring, and licensing of users. The users need to be educated, and have an easily available path to recovery and reentry if and when they fuck themselves up.

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