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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 4:15:29 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Free speech is dead then, what's left is extortion. Like I said, money talks, that's your value system, period.


I disagree. That would be called business... and good business policy is what they are after. Coaches are hired and expected to promote the team. No one cares what the political affiliations of a coach are, they care about him leading a winning team and filling the stands, selling the merchandise and promoting the good will of the team. If a coach cant do that, he is losing the team money.

Its not extortion, its plain business sense.




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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 4:17:08 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

But it's not less difficult to argue that consequences of economic sanctions, loss of livelihood, social orstracization, etc., are any less coercive, not quite as final perhaps, but the chilling effect is just as profound and all the more insidious.



...now this is a very fair point and utterly central to the argument we're having.

When do consequences of free speech become coercive and counter productive to free speech?

I'd argue pretty much alongside the SCOTUS on this. If one uses free speech in such a way as to cause harm to people (not annoyance, but actual harm) then the line has been crossed.

So, in my view, free speech is not an absolute right. (In fact, i can think of few rights I'd classify as absolute). It has limits, and those limits are roughly at the point where other peoples rights get effected.

So, did the coach in question cause harm?

Arguably yes. Economic harm, or at least the threat of it, to his employers.

Does applying sanctions to the coach have a pre-emptive coercive effect on other peoples free speech?

Maybe, actually. But not a huge one. Mostly what it does is enforce orthodoxy. In the US generally and Miami in particular, there is a shared perception of what Cuba is. The coach in question cut across that perception and got flak for it.

It is always tricky to swim against the stream. Try running for any political post in the US as a communist. Could one argue that people who don't vote for an avowed communist are curtailing that persons free speech? Could we argue that not getting votes is a consequence of what one has said? And if what one says is free speech, wouldnt failing to vote for someone, on the basis of what they've said, be a coercive consequence?

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 5:23:15 PM   
xssve


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quote:

When do consequences of free speech become coercive and counter productive to free speech?
When it has a chilling effect on free speech, that's a point of law, all you're arguing about is the "size" of the effect - doesn't matter, what if he'd said he likes Obama and been officially censured for it?

Same fucking thing, fans can throw peanuts at him, I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time - this is justifying and rationalizing legal action for stating a political opinion.

I'm swimming upstream all the way on this one, and I find myself agreeing with RO for once, I think this is entirely actionable.

Otherwise, re: MM, what we have is no longer a democracy, it's a dictatorship of capital.

< Message edited by xssve -- 4/13/2012 5:24:12 PM >

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 5:42:43 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		Let's flip it than,how would you sit with someone abridging ownership's right to make this decision with one of their employees ?
Because that is what you are suggesting.
Had the Marlins autonomy to deal with Ozzie abridged in any way shape or form in the furtherance of Ozzie's right of free speech than it is their right's that have been lost

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 5:50:45 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

he made those statements in an interview that had only peripherally to do with his job, he wasn't on the job.


The very first sentence of the article identifies him as the Marlins' manager, and the accompanying photo (online, at least) shows him in his baseball uniform. I don't think Time was interviewing him as a political analyst.

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 7:05:20 PM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		He wasn't on the field, and his comments had nothing to do with baseball.

You know, this is why corporations hire PR people, spin control, the cost of doing business.

Again, if his comments had been about Obama or one of the pub candidates instead of a dead commie, and the fans had gone nuts, would you think this was still ok or not?

Because it is no different.

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 7:20:40 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:


Because it is no different.


It's completely different.

He exercised his free speech, without government interference. Management exercised theirs, also without government interference. The fans exercised theirs as well, all without government interference.

It's YOU who wants to set what is and isn't acceptable.

Whether we like it or approve it or understand it isn't the point. It's a free country, and what happened here is a whopping helping of freedom.

You know, he's free to walk and go work elsewhere. Maybe for a competing team. Management actions have consequences too.


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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 7:21:08 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Again, if his comments had been about Obama or one of the pub candidates instead of a dead commie, and the fans had gone nuts, would you think this was still ok or not?


If I owned a multimillion dollar business, and one of my most visible employees were alienating customers with his political views--about Obama, about Santorum, about Miss Piggy--I'd consider it within my rights to discipline the employee in a way that made it clear to disgruntled customers that he was not speaking on behalf of the whole organization.

If it was wrong, as you seem to be saying, for the Marlins to discipline Guillen, was it wrong for sponsors to abandon Rush Limbaugh after he called Sandra Fluke a "slut" God knows how many times?

And I'm pretty sure Fidel Castro is still alive, for what that's worth.

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 8:07:30 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

When it has a chilling effect on free speech, that's a point of law, all you're arguing about is the "size" of the effect - doesn't matter, what if he'd said he likes Obama and been officially censured for it?



He could and can say anything he likes... It will not affect his freedom... He does not have to be a manager...He can walk away at any time...He is a free man and has freedom of speech. He does not have to accept the punishment of the owners. He can give them the finger if he likes going out the door.

Butch

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 9:22:25 PM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		Well there ya go, you're principles are for sale, those are your principles.

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 9:33:04 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		So are Guillen's, since he still works there, by his own choice.




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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/13/2012 11:06:10 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

my concern is that a.) it's over a political statement, and political statements are protected speech, period

You're wrong. Period.

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/14/2012 12:31:14 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Well there ya go, you're principles are for sale, those are your principles.



bingo!

right on target!

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/14/2012 12:34:35 PM   
supragenius


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Status: offline 		ozzy guillen was a shitty playre. hit above the mendoza line then talk shit, asshole

what was the questoni?

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/14/2012 12:36:20 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
Otherwise, re: MM, what we have is no longer a democracy, it's a dictatorship of capital.



That is what the democracy was intended, if you can imagine a giant board of directors voting on how "commerce" was to be regulated withing the corpration. (state)

Of course its turned into unchewed peanut inspectors up our asses, since we spread our cheeks and invited them in.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/14/2012 4:02:28 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Well there ya go, you're principles are for sale, those are your principles.


Since you don't know me or my principles, let's leave them out of this, thanks.

And a personal attack is a pretty poor substitute for reasoned debate.



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No matter how cynical you become,
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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/14/2012 5:12:16 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: supragenius

ozzy guillen was a shitty playre. hit above the mendoza line then talk shit, asshole

what was the questoni?



MLB pays shitty players to play ball?????
Who knew

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/14/2012 5:19:14 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Again, if his comments had been about Obama or one of the pub candidates instead of a dead commie, and the fans had gone nuts, would you think this was still ok or not?


If I owned a multimillion dollar business, and one of my most visible employees were alienating customers with his political views--about Obama, about Santorum, about Miss Piggy--I'd consider it within my rights to discipline the employee in a way that made it clear to disgruntled customers that he was not speaking on behalf of the whole organization.

What would you do if the fans found out that you also were fond of castro?

If it was wrong, as you seem to be saying, for the Marlins to discipline Guillen, was it wrong for sponsors to abandon Rush Limbaugh after he called Sandra Fluke a "slut" God knows how many times?


The sponsors are not rush's employer.

And I'm pretty sure Fidel Castro is still alive, for what that's worth.


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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/14/2012 5:22:29 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:


Because it is no different.


It's completely different.

He exercised his free speech, without government interference. Management exercised theirs, also without government interference. The fans exercised theirs as well, all without government interference.

It's YOU who wants to set what is and isn't acceptable.

Whether we like it or approve it or understand it isn't the point. It's a free country, and what happened here is a whopping helping of freedom.

You know, he's free to walk and go work elsewhere. Maybe for a competing team. Management actions have consequences too.





Is it your opinion that any person can be fired because the management disagrees with that person's political views?

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RE: No freedom of speech if it pisses someone off. - 4/14/2012 5:27:50 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Let's flip it than,how would you sit with someone abridging ownership's right to make this decision with one of their employees ?
Because that is what you are suggesting.
Had the Marlins autonomy to deal with Ozzie abridged in any way shape or form in the furtherance of Ozzie's right of free speech than it is their right's that have been lost


Are you of the opinion that your boss can fire you because he disagrees with your politial opinion?

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Profile   Post #: 80
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