RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


tweakabelle -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/14/2012 10:56:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The author Ayn Rand takes a very different view:
"Altruism is a moral system which holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the sole justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, value and virtue. Altruism is the moral base of collectivism, of all dictatorships...Altruism is the poison of death in the blood of Western civilization... "

What do you think?

Well for starters, I think it would be more accurate to say that "altruism is the moral excuse of all collectivism."

K.


It's certainly more accurate to assert that "altruism is the moral excuse of all collectivism." But does that throw any more light on the subject?

While Rand clearly uses "collectivism" as a derogatory term, it is worthwhile pondering if civilisation can exist without the application of the collectivist principle to some extent. Human societies, whether tribal or contemporary, can't function successfully over the longer term without the consent and co-operation of that societies members. Modern societies especially rely heavily on their citizens' voluntary observation of the law and many social mores/obligations. It is difficult to see how a democracy can function effectively or successfully without an individual's voluntary surrender of some personal options in the name of social cohesion.

If this claim - that all human civilisation relies to some extent on collectivism, and (in Rand's view), altruism - is valid, then it would seem that Rand's critique of altruism becomes very questionable.




erieangel -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 12:28:56 AM)

Rand was nothing more than a selfish, ignorant bitch who spouted off nonsense to justify her own selfishness.

She was a hypocrite, too, as proven when she got sick and "needed" medicare to pay for treatment.





tweakabelle -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 12:50:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Rand was nothing more than a selfish, ignorant bitch who spouted off nonsense to justify her own selfishness.

She was a hypocrite, too, as proven when she got sick and "needed" medicare to pay for treatment
enchant

Rand wasn't the world's most lovable or enchanting person was she? I read her books years ago and found them turgid and quite forgettable.

Yet it can not be denied that she is very well regarded in some quarters and appears to be undergoing a revival in her influence. For example, Alan Greenspan, who, whatever his other faults was nobody's fool, is a big fan of Rand's. It's tempting to dismiss her work as appealing only to others of a similar disposition - selfish, hypocritical, totally lacking in empathy and human feelings etc - but I don't find this a satisfactory way of accounting for her influence.

So I'm still hoping that one of her fans will offer me some persuasive reasons to take her seriously, or why she is so highly regarded by her fans.




Kirata -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 1:04:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's tempting to dismiss her work as appealing only to others of a similar disposition - selfish, hypocritical, totally lacking in empathy and human feelings etc - but I don't find this a satisfactory way of accounting for her influence.

You don't think there are enough people who are selfish, hypocritical, and totally lacking in empathy to account for it? [:D]

K.




tweakabelle -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 1:18:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's tempting to dismiss her work as appealing only to others of a similar disposition - selfish, hypocritical, totally lacking in empathy and human feelings etc - but I don't find this a satisfactory way of accounting for her influence.

You don't think there are enough people who are selfish, hypocritical, and totally lacking in empathy to account for it? [:D]

K.



I would llike to think that there are some redeeming intellectual or philosophical features in Rand's work, or even just features that possess some intellectual or philosophical appeal to some. I may well be erring on the side of optimism here, if the reaction of posters thus far is anything to go by - or for that matter, my own reaction to her work.

However it would nice to hear an interpretation of her work that doesn't appeal to baser instincts or plain old greed and selfishness. I must confess I'm beginning to lose hope though .........




xssve -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 1:59:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
Well it's interesting that you should bring up Thanksgiving, one act of altruism I bet the Native American wish they had never performed, they've been paying for it ever since.


Altruism of the natives or an later end result of the abandoned collectivization that had been the norm?



There ya go jousting at imaginary dragons. The Devil is always in the details, it not always what you do so much as how you do it, there is no magic formula.




xssve -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 2:01:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I don't think any philosophical analysis of Objectivism is very helpful, to be honest. If somebody's only a member of something on the guru's say so (which Rand was always very vehement about), then it's a cult not a philosophy, and doesn't deserve to be treated otherwise.

Please don't call it objectivism, Randism is an insult to objectivity.




xssve -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 2:20:11 AM)

I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but what there is is individual fitness and group fitness: the group functions as a "vehicle" like a bus we're all riding - we can go further faster if we maintain the bus and keep it fueled up instead of walking, sacrifice a little autonomy for increased fitness, but it's always a tug of war, between group and individual fitness.

And, if the bus just keep running over you, you're not going to be inclined to push if there is no incentive.

That's usually where religion comes in telling you you have to push anyway, it's gods will because the wealthy don't want to get their clothes dirty.

There is a free rider problem in socialism, but it's really no less of a problem in capitalism, the stock market has a become one hell of a free rider, it rewards capital, siphoning off of labor, and that's a problem in capitalism: capital crowds out labor, bad money crowds out good, it's happened over and over again, which OCD cases like Mises and faux philosophers like Rand have a curious myopia about.

Seems to me there were some events around 1929 that made the tough times of the Pilgrims look like a little light rain at a garden party, nobody else remember that?, and before that there was England, Holland, Spain, etc., hell Argentina, and financial markets are doing to us what the NWO, the IMF, World Bank, WTO, etc, did to Argentina.

I guess that's one way to get socialism back on the table for discussion: capitalists cannot seem to resist all climbing into the same toilet and pulling the chain periodically, they just never seem to remember how that happened, and they go right back and do it again.




Moonhead -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 4:53:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I don't think any philosophical analysis of Objectivism is very helpful, to be honest. If somebody's only a member of something on the guru's say so (which Rand was always very vehement about), then it's a cult not a philosophy, and doesn't deserve to be treated otherwise.

Please don't call it objectivism, Randism is an insult to objectivity.

Objectivism was Rand's term for her cult, however hilariously inappropriate it sounds. I'd imagine that she thought she needed a new term as back then "libertarian" was still a sort of general umbrella term for any flavour of lefty social reformer...

(That criticism of The Fountainhead really hits the nail on the head though. Nice work.)




xssve -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 8:25:46 AM)

Well, it is true that a small percentage of people do most of the real work, and they're usually not the people at the top, or the people at the bottom, they're the people in the middle - in the military, it's often observed that non-coms are the "backbone of the military", and this is very true: if there is something that has to be done, you call a Sergent, and they'll get it done.

Rand however has built a cult around a particular class, and most of the propaganda supporting her construct is class oriented - Dinesh D'Souza for example has written numerous essays establishing correlations between financial success and industriousness, and even to moral purity, i.e., wealth is the marker for all that is "good" and as a binary mytheme this must mean that the absence of wealth is indicative of both laziness and moral turpitude, rather than an asymmetrical distribution of surplus labor, which is cogent in terms of the gravitational effects of capital: i.e., capital is attracted to capital: one is much less inclined to make a sizable loan to a poor person than to a rich one, thus the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

The second effect is a condition of human nature that the more money one has the less grateful one is to the schleps that made if for you: in most economies, this eventually leads to slave labor, i.e., the "fairest price" for labor performed in your benefit is nothing, or sustenance wages - technically, one cannot reasonably go below sustenance wages and expect a labor force to keep working while they slowly starve to death or die of exposure, but it has been attempted.

Rand appeals to 19th century moralist by making it sound modern, and of course, the right is currently pretty much defined by it's attachment to 19th moralism: it's what wealthy people, or wannabe wealthy people want to hear, and it appears to appeal to the self loathing of the have not's especially if they feel lucky to be getting at least sustenance level wages for their labor, and resent being forced to go on the dole (poor but proud).

The altruism comes in here where these Two paradigms of wealth creation cross, in generating commerce and innovation, and is precisely the problem Adam Smith addressed in Wealth of Nations: in order to create a dynamic economic system with social mobility, there has to be competition and it has to come from the bottom - the feudal economy resists innovation, the poor labor at sustenance level wages, in a system in which they are often reduced to mere property - that's not socialism, that's unregulated "capitalism", defined merely as concentration of capital - the aristocracy taxes or seizes all surplus labor production, and uses it to purchase mercenaries to collect taxes, the system becomes hereditary, any social mobility is strictly the result of patronage, "hard work" per se, gets you nothing, you merely produce more surplus labor for seizure - it seems to work because the coercive element is downplayed or omitted - there are still a lot of apologists and defenders of Southern Slavery, "they were better off", etc. i.e, redefining forced labor as altruism. But even if that is arguable on a case by case basis, what is not arguable is that it was very good for the Southern aristocracy.

In fact, the South is full of such miserable land, hilly, heavily wooded with Black Oak (which is considered a "trash tree", with little commercial value, but difficult to remove), and where there is not Black Oak there are brambles, that agriculture is considerably less viable without slave labor, it even resists mechanized clear cutting, and tree crop technique is to clear cut the first year, burn off the second, spray herbicide the third, and plant loblollies the Fourth, and hope they grow faster than the brambles.

Anyway as a economy slides into feudalism it becomes less efficient, and there is little incentive to innovate, because there is no pressure from innovators at the bottom threatening the position of those at the top, there is instead an incentive on the part of those at the top to quell any innovation from the bottom, and keep them under-capitalized lest they become competitive which would destabilize their whole cozy position.

And once people get cozy, it's very hard to dislodge them, and mutual patronage develops where other wealthy people will collude to suppress any innovation or competition from the bottom, but are instead motivated to maintain and solidify class divisions even to the extent of caste formation - African Americans, for example, are not seen not so much as class as they are a caste, and a wealthy, successful Black man like Obama is seen as violating some unspoken (or spoken) caste division, rather than as a repudiation of the justification for caste systems in general.

This is where laissez faire invariably ends up, it's in the self interest of those who got in early to keep subsequent waves of competition down, and increasingly so as the easy pickings disappear and margins contract, and with all due respect to Von Mises OCD, there are huge gaps in his analysis, whereas Smith argues each and every aspect of commercial activity to exhaustion, I'm not sure he would even recognize altruism as an economic concept, given that all acts, even acts of altruism can be evaluated as a cost/benefit ratio, and might even agree with Rand that giving away "something for nothing", if that's how you define "altruism", probably makes poor business sense.

But in terms of current right-wing/financial philosophy the real tough part here is that making capitalism work, real capitalism, not neo-capitalist corporate feudalism, means keeing enough slack in the system that competition can continue to apply pressure form below, and that means refraining form doing things, even if they are profitable in the short term - this is self evidently fucking madness from a right wing view, and the only remotely valid defense "if I don't do it, somebody else will", is undercut by the stiff resistance to the imposition of any regulation from without that would insure a healthy economic turnover that would keep the system dynamic increasing both production efficiency and innovation, opening new markets, instead of a static, sclerotic, class/caste system, which is where it invariably ends up otherwise.

Statistically, you could say the cost benefit ratio becomes distorted, with a small proportion of the population getting all the benefits while the remainder bear all the costs.

i.e., real capitalism requires a little pain, shared equitably - no pain, no gain.

Currently, and predictably, the rights legislative efforts are focused on privatizing and locking in profits while socializing the risks, which is not significant different from communism where the surplus labor is distributed by the party, which not surprisingly, tends towards patronage, and in the end, it's not much different than crony capitalism, and just as socially static and inefficient.

Arguing the converse, Congress is a socialist subsystem, which if it allows itself to slide from a regulatory body into a patronage system, is indistinguishable from party communism, which is just another form of feudalism.

The rule here, is that all commercial interest tends towards monopoly, and as a result, all economic systems tend toward feudalism. Left to the forces of laissez faire economics, all economic systems eventually become feudal systems, it requires regulation to prevent that from happening.

A regulated capitalist meta-system in synergy with supporting socialist subsystems is what appears to work, the socialist subsystems channel some of that surplus labor into reinvestment in the labor market itself, which private markets are often disinclined or disincentivized to do, for various reasons. There is no incentive for a private employer to provide basic educational services to their employees for example, they bear the expense of increasing the labor value of an employee, which he or she can then turn around and sell at a higher price to a firm that does not bear the cost of education - i.e. the first business is simply subsidizing the other (thus the guild system in feudalism), but both businesses need educated labor, thus the supporting socialized subsystem synergystically benefits both labor and employer, and thus, is only seemingly altruistic: in reality, there is a distinct payoff in cost vs. benefit, it's an investment.





Yachtie -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 12:25:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Human societies, whether tribal or contemporary, can't function successfully over the longer term without the consent and co-operation of that societies members.


Collectivism /= Consent and co-operation. Collectivism is not a requirement for any society to function whereas consent and co-operation are. In actuality, and as seen in reality, the former intrudes on the latter.




xssve -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 12:48:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Human societies, whether tribal or contemporary, can't function successfully over the longer term without the consent and co-operation of that societies members.


Collectivism /= Consent and co-operation. Collectivism is not a requirement for any society to function whereas consent and co-operation are. In actuality, and as seen in reality, the former intrudes on the latter.


Maybe you better try and explain what you think the difference is.

e.g., give me an example of something you see as collectivism, and why you think it is.




Moonhead -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 12:53:54 PM)

I was thinking that myself. Teh eeevil collectivisation is just an extension of voluntary co-operation, after all, and you can't have any sort of society without that.




Yachtie -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 1:07:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Human societies, whether tribal or contemporary, can't function successfully over the longer term without the consent and co-operation of that societies members.


Collectivism /= Consent and co-operation. Collectivism is not a requirement for any society to function whereas consent and co-operation are. In actuality, and as seen in reality, the former intrudes on the latter.


Maybe you better try and explain what you think the difference is.

e.g., give me an example of something you see as collectivism, and why you think it is.


Hmm. Lets see. How about you go reread the link whereupon you said There ya go jousting at imaginary dragons. The Devil is always in the details, it not always what you do so much as how you do it, there is no magic formula.

I mean, come on now. If you can't understand it how the hell am I supposed to correct your deficiency? It's no wonder blithering socialists will subject everyone to repeated attempts at proving insanity is not doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.





Moonhead -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 1:12:52 PM)

Maybe you could try answering the question rather than whining about your inherent superiority? The superior man spends more time teaching than whining.




PeonForHer -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 1:16:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I was thinking that myself. Teh eeevil collectivisation is just an extension of voluntary co-operation, after all, and you can't have any sort of society without that.


Yes, but you only say that because you are Borg, Moonie.

It's odd. Whenever we do any discussion here on anything that roughly pertains to the question 'what is there, if not full-blooded individualism?' - no-one mentions social democracy. There's no halfway house, it seems.




PeonForHer -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 1:19:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
I mean, come on now. If you can't understand it how the hell am I supposed to correct your deficiency?


*Could* you explain your distinction, Yachtie, if possible with concrete examples? I think I must be as deficient as XSSVE in this subject, sadly.




Yachtie -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 1:35:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Maybe you could try answering the question rather than whining about your inherent superiority? The superior man spends more time teaching than whining.


You mean, like, spoon feed from the link I provided and also pointed which states -

This had required that "all profits & benefits that are got by trade, working, fishing, or any other means" were to be placed in the common stock of the colony, and that, "all such persons as are of this colony, are to have their meat, drink, apparel, and all provisions out of the common stock." A person was to put into the common stock all he could, and take out only what he needed.

This "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" was an early form of socialism, and it is why the Pilgrims were starving. Bradford writes that "young men that are most able and fit for labor and service" complained about being forced to "spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children." Also, "the strong, or man of parts, had no more in division of victuals and clothes, than he that was weak." So the young and strong refused to work and the total amount of food produced was never adequate.

To rectify this situation, in 1623 Bradford abolished socialism. He gave each household a parcel of land and told them they could keep what they produced, or trade it away as they saw fit. In other words, he replaced socialism with a free market, and that was the end of famines.



Is that what you mean? Should I also comprehend it for you?

You tall enough for this ride?




Moonhead -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 1:39:22 PM)

I was thinking more of providing a link that isn't taken from wingnut territory, and actually addresses the question you've been asked*. I'm funny like that.

*(Or actually explaining your ideological position yourself, rather than acting sniffy and superior, but I suspect that's asking for the moon on a stick...)




xssve -> RE: Ayn Rand and altruism (4/15/2012 1:39:35 PM)

quote:

I mean, come on now. If you can't understand it how the hell am I supposed to correct your deficiency? It's no wonder blithering socialists will subject everyone to repeated attempts at proving insanity is not doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
So it's one of those "self evident" things?

If it isn't imaginary, you should be able to provide a concrete example, don't be shy.

Regulations maybe? OSHA? i.e, consumer and/or labor protections? I've had a few run in's with OSHA myself, I'm all for it but sometimes going by the book makes things more, not less dangerous, fucking flunkie bureaucrats.




Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625