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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/18/2012 1:45:43 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeats was a founding father of the Taliban was he?  That would make Burns al-Queda, unless I am much mistaken.

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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/18/2012 1:47:56 PM   
Anaxagoras


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Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
When talking about beauty, terrible isn't necessarily a pejorative term.

That's debatable but clearly it isn't overwhelmingly positive as you appear to be suggesting...

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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/18/2012 1:49:23 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		It's a lot more positive than it is negative. If Yeats had been stupid enough to be entirely uncritical, he wouldn't be one of the best poets of the twentieth century, would he?

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 4/18/2012 1:50:13 PM >

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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/18/2012 1:50:11 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Yeats was a founding father of the Taliban was he?  That would make Burns al-Queda, unless I am much mistaken.

...and would D.H. Lawrence be the Northern Alliance?

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/18/2012 2:41:22 PM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/18/2012 1:55:35 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
It's a lot more positive than it is negative. If Yeats had been stupid enough to be entirely uncritical, he wouldn't be one of the best poets of the twentieth century, would he?

Again thats debatable - a terrible beauty is still... well terrible, and whilst beauty is of course ascribed as a positive, it isn't always necessarily taken as a good thing.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/18/2012 7:25:01 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

--W.B. Yeats

Well. This has been enlightening, amusing, and befuddling. I'd never have guessed the insane tangents to which this discussion would branch. A stone has many ripples, I guess.

Of all the speculating, defending, interpreting, reframing, second-guessing, and more from a palette of posters, one dissection of the OP was left ignored and untouched:

What I wrote.

First, there's a laughing smiley. Generally, we take that as indicating sharing a joke. But no--early on, "I'm assuming it's not a joke..." Um. Okie dokie then.

But wait! There are words in the OP, typed in my own hand!

About negotiation.

Reagan was right to negotiate with the Mujahideen. Yeah, he had this insanity for whacking at anything communist, but in fairness, he inherited the strategy from Carter, who had hoped to lure the Soviets into the "Afghanistan trap." Interestingly, the Soviets didn't want to go. They were repeatedly asked by the government of Afghanistan (quite different than an invasion), but hey, they were communists, so that's bad. It just is.

Why the ridicule today from dime-store cowboys with Internet connections?

Interesting that "negotiate" also means to navigate through safely; to manage or conduct satisfactorily; to arrange for or bring about -- not "to cowardly give in to our enemies or tribal people or other national leaders." To negotiate is to talk. That talk can include, "Well fuck you, we're not doing that!," though this may not be the most tactful phrasing, even if that's the negotiating position.

To negotiate our way through international relations, we need to negotiate. It's just reality.

And like it or not, Colin Powell was right: "Today's terrorist is tomorrow's prime minister."

Bush really should have listened to that guy once in a while. That mess was sheer arrogance.

Reagan, at least, was a man of good will. Simplistic and mistaken, yes, but honestly so.

It's not his fault he was elected.

But only the convenient parts of St. Ronnie are emulated.



(in reply to Anaxagoras)
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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/18/2012 11:10:59 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		How amusingly unprincipled all this opposition to 'terrorism' is ..... resting as it does on the totally solid morally unimpeachable foundation of "if they're one of ours, they're freedom fighters, if they're one of the other lot's, then they're terrorists'.

So the Muhjadeen weren't terrorists until they morphed into the Taliban, the Irgun and Hagannah were terrorists until they morphed into the IDF and suddenly became sanitised, the MEK aren't terrorists because they're fighting the Iranian regime (and therefore on our side), the Contras weren't terrorists, even Nelson Mandela was a terrorist until he became respectable ..etc etc etc

It's all so sickeningly predictable and equally hypocritical. And in case any one hasn't realised the bloody obvious yet, it always ends up in a mess, with dead bodies strewn all over the place and political disasters to match. But it's OK, the dead bodies are rarely 'our' dead ....... so they don't really count for anything much.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/18/2012 11:17:01 PM >

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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/19/2012 5:47:41 AM   
FatDomDaddy


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Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery



But only the convenient parts of St. Ronnie are emulated.






OK....

But...

Can you identify ANY of those men and source where they are members of the Taliban???

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/19/2012 6:39:09 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Can you where they aren't?   I showed you the link to the original video where he said it and where he was sitting with the guys.  

Would a reasonable man think that of say 10 tribal leaders in the big M, none translated to Taliban?

Wouldn't that be like after WW2 none of the former Nazis stayed in Government?  Or nobody that worked for Khadaffi is in that government?

Would seem the burden of proof rests in another direction.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/19/2012 6:46:10 AM   
Anaxagoras


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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Interestingly, the Soviets didn't want to go. They were repeatedly asked by the government of Afghanistan (quite different than an invasion), but hey, they were communists, so that's bad. It just is.

True the Afghani communist government did request assistance from the USSR a number of times but in the end the USSR went in for its own motives in December 1979 because they believed President Amin had turned against them or wasn't towing the line. A few weeks after the ground invasion, Russia's Spetsnaz special forces assassinated him at his palace in Kabul and killed his 200 to 300 personal guards. They also took control of the Ministries and offices of central administration. They essentially seized control of the country.

At the end of the day the Afghani government tried to suppress the Islamic faith, push through radical Marxist policies on a deeply traditional society, and ill-advisedly seize land without compensation. It was bound to lead to a great deal of conflict, especially of a religious bent - perhaps that's where some of the blame for the advent of Islamism in the region should be. Their relationship was so close to the USSR that that they could easily be called a puppet regime - even copying the Soviet flag as a replacement for their own.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/19/2012 7:15:55 AM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/19/2012 11:46:18 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery



But only the convenient parts of St. Ronnie are emulated.






OK....

But...

Can you identify ANY of those men and source where they are members of the Taliban???



I posted this before. Obviously you selectively missed it.

"Its hard to be certain but the guy front left looks like Gulbhadin (SP) Hekmatyar. It makes sense he would have been at the meeting with Reagan for two reasons. One was because he had the second largest Mujahideen group. The other was that the ISI supported him as their man in Afghanistan, before switching behind Omar when he founded the Taliban. Its well documented that CIA funds were channelled via the ISI to Hekmatyar and his group. "

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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/19/2012 8:37:22 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Luqui crawls back.......

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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/19/2012 8:57:09 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline 		http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPI1nAqkpLQ

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/19/2012 10:14:26 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Can you where they aren't?   I showed you the link to the original video where he said it and where he was sitting with the guys.  

Would a reasonable man think that of say 10 tribal leaders in the big M, none translated to Taliban?

Wouldn't that be like after WW2 none of the former Nazis stayed in Government?  Or nobody that worked for Khadaffi is in that government?

Would seem the burden of proof rests in another direction.


I didn't accuse these men of being terrorists....the poster (not the OP) is accusing them of being so.

The burden of proof as to whether these specific men are in THE TALIBAN goes to the person MAKING the claim.

So one more time....

Can ANYONE identify ANY of those men and source where they are members of the Taliban???

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/19/2012 10:17:36 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

"Its hard to be certain but the guy front left looks like...."



I didn't miss it

But ah....

Are you kidding me? "looks like"???

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RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/20/2012 5:28:04 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I guess someone telling you again that it doesn't matter, that's not at all the point, isn't going to get the bug out of your ass.

I have better things to do, but I'll get you started:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&bih=592&biw=1182&tbs=sbi:AMhZZitspdLRhBxGNbN-VAqDtKhsb_1pk9eWcnRpqHR_13JP502YcTHGu6kAXYgLO75N9GtGmIPtW_1HVTBVYdnK8zArdfjihWNVg_1VzNibZ4l3WQXuLm87JuVifaMIK2nsCLRGVYV32XZcawqy7kVw8rNeJrJsBJReDCdjl2I8dBaB2jqsAgXz-ch4l9jhMhIUDJHs8rEgTrJXHqVu7_1kStHVdv8Rs4wnf3ainPHZ7-pqTxgVdIuVW4_1zf5-1UG4GENJQxTT0YlJM2cMdfU2jU8x-6Rl_1UQe7ksyPWZuCNF7gc0GJjeWsbW4VE74uh4zI1u1BoLhXfQLzGcakKtI3x-M2Cz8bud3K3OWK9ZCighrzvbv0YbRaV6EKnAKJJJ2MfgD2obtU_1R8kRhM7aZjDMRvLZlaYNfcv91w-bFyztsUY0WmS7Sys6kzJ_1C1bPvk_1yieqUKpEYXDeVQ4O3mPwvvgLi2CIlNoS7kv2hYFutIJR9aM7ObnBg0n73FlgkoKxU7vuan0RzmnbqUTxezrcnWJ42yIT2bHPHxUbNjaN3t_1fuTlBBqPI6_1taq2dQ7YxDmivqhDhpnePV0VCbAL_19CZTfd91msvLiKRJfqEM8BpuMdDjiosaXslAYVjejd6bcB7UmgncyhYBe1MJIpe2OsRqvhb4bB23Ce-rzdtuvnurMMsHtMmBTGm2Cv4jUp86QFDOZfLR5scnkivI2xYxaRNj-rm0Xq0uWh6Bbu42G2MJ35FdYLMYl7m3-RQoBdGNkndKqeVsMdDtyi_1VGXtqGDmRoeRlOeVZFRAhXUHYJW4HBOsyrwj3DSgTkIF7p8J0j9ZIPrxnJ1Xqks2HX_115jhkk_12rRzZN2vxfWiCsnnt4sgoLfd-S36vt8yRZvRDF91hGAv8ybQdLjmOZ-nKLkB_1UoGAWLsoZ-sThRrxbDd5QHDTK6OtGjmB_1V6Tj49h3-ZCNzGdlMmQucJuEpldPX_1-NYsg2vcES03qN9r6LBxDXMGelvwkPAszTvZqX4sSNDdTr-X3NO6hk4P_1q8GG5lomJdBgAIbB2dsFyJ1oR31WmfBt_1trU3doCgKmyqmMOe6ViaB8FWEsuloz-K_1QEnM7zdqnIQhfKgAuAj4zeKQuQQzqoUZQ2lImaAlKc0dAarh9zvTY2VeyOV5-JiDnxa3S5MNifcSZhq33PoZtK8m-kLoCIoEhIOZOcyw6LQpUOHKjtNErmtAI5i9FneAk7J7dgGDX51fAxS5QhfrsVGP3yan3nQgm_13st7hveSbp7h-i9Bn2nPmfmHYG5_1eOV5CFfnemKrB_1dyGQDj_17MtlZ8iEJxmxQ5fhpe-Vm8k1GInyy-KRP7PlnfIHbX3r345izSsDWyd-gKYmxVSFA&prmd=imvns&ei=d1ORT-y3MefO2gWC1d3tBA&start=0&sa=N

You'll have to go back through all the many blog reposts and such until you get back to an original news photo for a caption/description.

By the way, it's 1986, not 1985.

The subject here is still negotiation. I don't care if that's Jimmy Hoffa, Colonel Sanders, Elvis, John Lennon, Mao and Pol Pot in the photo--still not the point.

But have fun.

And by the way, it IS Hekmatyar in the photo.
http://www.jamestown.org/programs/gta/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=909&tx_ttnews[backPid]=181&no_cache=1

Yes, he's not Taliban--he's al-Qaeda, by his own admission....so that's good, right?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3f9mlUQzJA&feature=player_embedded

It's not a game.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/20/2012 7:53:14 AM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		So the answer is NO... you cannot.

BTW...

One can only negotiate if both parties are willing and do so in good faith.



(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/20/2012 9:23:20 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Suit yourself. Not the same as "unidentifiable," but then, factual evidence wasn't your intent, was it.

Refusing to negotiate means we aren't in good faith. Start there.

You don't have to like what you hear nor act on it at the negotiation.

But sooner or later--it comes back to negotiation. The rest is just arrogance and slaughter.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/20/2012 7:42:01 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery



NEVER NEGOTIATE, right?




Sorry MM....I guess I have to ask.....you have some sort of presupposition that our leaders do what they purport?

Like....what they say they're going to do?

You're on drugs....right?

You slipped in to crack....on a pipe?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Taliban supporter in U.S.: 'Moral Equivalent of Fou... - 4/20/2012 8:48:30 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Another one who can't decipher a .

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 80
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