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RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 3:54:00 AM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1814
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		I find the responses to mostly be rather amusing to the OP's original question and per clarifications, intent.

References make a fantastic filter. If you are an s-type talking to someone who claims experience, go for outside verification. If they can and are willing to provide references either just by asking or they offer them, the chances they are legit and what they claim to be go up immediately. The reverse is also true of someone who claims to have experience as a sub or slave. Googling, and other search sources, them to see what you can find on your own is another way to be sure of who and what you are talking to and how much they are what they claim to be. This is called being intelligent and making informed choices....and also called not being stupid.

For all the people replying or reading thinking that people don't really work with/train people knowing they will eventually leave, you do need to understand that yes, people really do that. My very unscientific sampling suggests that slaves who do not start out in a committed relationship will, on the average, have two to three owners before they finally settle with one. Note...average...your experience may vary. Just don't think that they way you do something, or have done something, is the only way it is or can be done. It isn't.

For the record, I have been known to have someone who is interested in being trained by or even owned by me contact former slaves and people I have worked with. As far as I am concerned, if you are not willing to check out someone who will be doing things to modify your mind and/or to your body, you shouldn't be doing this. You are a danger at least to yourself and probably to others as well.

Be well all....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com    The goal is community.

(in reply to artemiss)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 4:28:22 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		In reading all of the posts on this thread I believe there are at least two mindsets being reflected that are based upon the poster's outlook on what a satisfactory M/s or D/s situation is for THEM.

For a more formal, leather type situation, which many involved in BDSM do have........something along the lines of much of LadyPact's background, I can see where the referral would be a valid issue. As it may with a strictly bottom/Top situation, especially where there is S&M involved.

From what I've seen, those that scoff are approaching the whole thing from a completely different mindset. For them, it is more about building a long term relationship. With getting to know the human being first, determining if that person is compatible relationship material. Something references will very likely not tell you. And quite honestly, most of these people wouldn't give credence to a negative reference regardless. They tend to follow their hormones(though usually called something like 'gut feeling' 'chemistry' 'love', etc rather than a basic animal, hormonal reaction) more than anything else.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 5:08:12 AM   
FrankAr


Posts: 817
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings,

I actually never ask for references. What I might like and how I like to treat the female maybe different to how another treats her, and so this will make a different impact upon how she is guided. The reason is that I do not just dive in, it may take about 6- 12 months on emails and phone calls before a meet. By then I get a very good feel for the female and go from there.

Now this does go a different way if the female says that she has been going through a bit of shibari. Then I might find another shibari master to give both a few tips and go from there, simple. Always good to get a more hands on feel with the female through interaction that we both might like.

Everyone has their own way.

Frank Ar.


_____________________________

I am just me, simple ol me.

Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 7:08:31 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


From what I've seen, those that scoff are approaching the whole thing from a completely different mindset. For them, it is more about building a long term relationship.


I scoff for different reasons. 1) Unless you're getting those references face to face.....it's too easy to fake them. 2) How I was with people in my past is completely different than how I am with Himself. Same with him. His behavior with me is completely different than how he treated his ex.


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 8:09:31 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

In reading all of the posts on this thread I believe there are at least two mindsets being reflected that are based upon the poster's outlook on what a satisfactory M/s or D/s situation is for THEM.


I see the different mindsets, too, and both have value, depending on what the person is looking for. People gotta do what works for them, and sometimes a trial & error approach is exactly what they need for their own discoveries.

Since I personally do not consider myself a slave in the "commodity" sense, someone looking for references would not be a fit for me. Plus I really relate to what OsideGirl said - who I was in past relationships isn't anywhere close to who I am in today's relationship. Actually, I'm rather redefined in all areas of my life. So a reference from my former owner would really be inconsequential, because he'd be talking about a different person than the person I am today.

When I met the Mister, I didn't care about what anyone else had to say about him. I wanted to talk to him directly, and understand *his* views on his past relationships. I asked him questions about what he valued in those relationships, and what he think went wrong in them, and what areas of that relationship does he hold himself accountable for - the good and the bad? I wanted to know what he learned about himself as a result of those relationships, and how he would currently deal with various issues that would come up. I wanted to know what made him tick *now* - what makes him happy, how he deals with anger, and the like. And what really shined the light for me was watching him interact with his daughter - you can't fake that for someone.

The present is so much more important to me than the past. The past is what we have learned from, if we so choose, and what we learned brings us to the present.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 8:26:00 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I haven't scoffed yet, but this has been my thought as well.
I have known at least 3 guys personally who have used the anonimity of the net to create their own references from former "subs" they had partnered with, who could provide references of safety. Phht. Unless you know them physically.. and in this case, can trust them, you don't know squat.
When I see people asking for or giving references I roll my eyes.

For me "trust but verify" means I trust my gut, and verify with experience over time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


From what I've seen, those that scoff are approaching the whole thing from a completely different mindset. For them, it is more about building a long term relationship.


I scoff for different reasons. 1) Unless you're getting those references face to face.....it's too easy to fake them. 2) How I was with people in my past is completely different than how I am with Himself. Same with him. His behavior with me is completely different than how he treated his ex.




_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 8:29:17 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


From what I've seen, those that scoff are approaching the whole thing from a completely different mindset. For them, it is more about building a long term relationship.


I scoff for different reasons. 1) Unless you're getting those references face to face.....it's too easy to fake them. 2) How I was with people in my past is completely different than how I am with Himself. Same with him. His behavior with me is completely different than how he treated his ex.



I agree with you, and our mindset is more relationship based.

If I am looking for a skillset, which a M/s type situation MAY be more inclined towards ( I know I have known several such ) a referral would be completely appropriate. The people I am thinking of, do not approach M/s with any sort of LTR in mind. One in particular, it is done in a very business like manner with little to no emotion or emotional attachment. It's not a situation I would want or can imagine considering, but it works for those that do it. References are important to them. Closely guarded, difficult to obtain, treasured. On both sides of the slash.

Nothing about what they do appeals to me, but I do understand the validity of it, to them.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 9:06:08 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I haven't scoffed yet, but this has been my thought as well.
I have known at least 3 guys personally who have used the anonimity of the net to create their own references from former "subs" they had partnered with, who could provide references of safety.


The serial rapist that used the SoCalSubFem chatroom on AOL as his personal hunting grounds had a series of self created references. One of his "socks" contacted me repeatedly about what a great guy he was.


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 9:17:37 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Veddy creepyyyyyyyy!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 10:46:56 AM   
Epytropos


Posts: 699
Joined: 7/23/2011
Status: offline 		If you take on a slave (or allow yourself to be taken by a master) before you have time to get to know them beyond what any reference could hope to express, you deserve all the heartache that can bring you. This is not a fucking job interview, this is a relationship between two human beings.

< Message edited by Epytropos -- 4/27/2012 10:47:29 AM >

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They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 2:27:38 PM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline 		This thread amuses me. Let's go back to talking about the car fax analogy! How about Cuntfax?! I like it, shows promise. But then again it leaves out the male slaves...so it would have to be something pansexual in nature. Servefax perhaps?! No no that won't do either, not every bottom is a service bottom, and some are slaves, some are subs, yadda yadda yadda. Hm...this requires further pondering...




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Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

(in reply to Epytropos)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 2:30:10 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		ROFL... damn it... now you have me thinking something fax and running the words together! You suck! 

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 4:28:59 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		FR

There are two separate issues here:

1) Someone being vague (cagey?) about their past, and whether that's acceptable.
2) Whether or not a reference is a valuable solution to that vagueness.

I fundamentally don't want to be with someone who can't talk to me about their past. Whether that's because they aren't over it, or they're ashamed of it, or they don't trust me enough to tell me - none of those options are good ones.

But if they're hesitant about talking to me about it then a piece of paper from a stranger doesn't mean shit. What exactly will it tell me that my partner can't tell me in their own words?

(I also can't get the whole Alexa di Carlo thing on twitter out of my head - this blogger posing as a female sex worker who sent references to other sex workers for himself, saying he was this great guy and they should trust him. For someone's reference to be valuable to me then I need to know them. If I know them, why do I need a bit of paper? Why can't I just have a chat with them?)

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Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 5:50:55 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
For someone's reference to be valuable to me then I need to know them. If I know them, why do I need a bit of paper? Why can't I just have a chat with them?)



Well said. And for most of us that's the sticking point. Would I believe any 'reference' the op sent about himself? Nope. I'd believe it was a sock. And a phone number of someone I don't know? Could easily be his own extra phone being answered by a street person who for $10 would read off this litany of what a great guy he is.

If you don't know the person giving the reference personally, you can't trust it. And if you know that person, then the odds are you also know their ex, and thus don't need the reference.

This of course assumes that you think their ex is someone whose word about anything you are prepared to accept. If you think their ex is a twit, you're going to wonder about how smart he/she is to have chosen a twit to begin with.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 10:07:44 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1814
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		LaTigresse....

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

In reading all of the posts on this thread I believe there are at least two mindsets being reflected that are based upon the poster's outlook on what a satisfactory M/s or D/s situation is for THEM.

For a more formal, leather type situation, which many involved in BDSM do have........something along the lines of much of LadyPact's background, I can see where the referral would be a valid issue. As it may with a strictly bottom/Top situation, especially where there is S&M involved.

From what I've seen, those that scoff are approaching the whole thing from a completely different mindset. For them, it is more about building a long term relationship. With getting to know the human being first, determining if that person is compatible relationship material. Something references will very likely not tell you. And quite honestly, most of these people wouldn't give credence to a negative reference regardless. They tend to follow their hormones(though usually called something like 'gut feeling' 'chemistry' 'love', etc rather than a basic animal, hormonal reaction) more than anything else.


You are mostly correct from my reading of the posters as well. You only leave out the "You can't tell me what to do," types. The ones you reference who are looking for a relationship first are the ones for whom I use the phrase, "They are looking for a Mister, not a Master." But then, I am also one of those who think if the relationship is all about love and romance with a bit of kink it is going to end up the bedroom only, weekend warrior type of relationship, not something very deep on the kink or submission side.

Be well....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com    The goal is community.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/27/2012 11:32:17 PM   
JanahX


Posts: 3443
Joined: 8/21/2010
Status: offline
quote:

You are mostly correct from my reading of the posters as well. You only leave out the "You can't tell me what to do," types. The ones you reference who are looking for a relationship first are the ones for whom I use the phrase, "They are looking for a Mister, not a Master." But then, I am also one of those who think if the relationship is all about love and romance with a bit of kink it is going to end up the bedroom only, weekend warrior type of relationship, not something very deep on the kink or submission side.

Be well....

Malkinius


and what the fuck is "deep" ? - I relate that word to "fantasyland"

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The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 5:04:29 AM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		As a general rule... anyone I'm going to get hooked up with is likely to be in the community somewhere.. and someone I know is going to know them... Idon't need a written reference as such...I can make my own inquiries of others I know and trust..

for me, that's part of the value of community and the connections

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 5:48:04 AM   
littlecherie


Posts: 137
Joined: 3/29/2012
Status: offline 		Depends.


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(hellionsLight)

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 9:32:59 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

But then, I am also one of those who think if the relationship is all about love and romance with a bit of kink it is going to end up the bedroom only, weekend warrior type of relationship, not something very deep on the kink or submission side.

Be well....

Malkinius



You can believe that all you want but for many of us, the relationships have grown into TPE entirely because of that stress on love and the relationship. If he didn't care this deeply about me, all he'd be getting would be a bit of weekend kink.

He gets it all from me because he loves me. Without him loving me, I would never trust him this much.

In other words, because I went looking for Mister Right, I found Master Right.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 10:04:30 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
In other words, because I went looking for Mister Right, I found Master Right.

Well put Des. I certainly wasn't looking for a slave when I married Carol. I had no idea such things existed. Carol, to this day, has no desire to be a slave. Our dynamic exists between us because of my love for her and her love for me. It feeds me to "own" her and so she'll have nothing less than being owned. It is my love that engenders that degree of dedication and trust.

But it is also true that that same love also shapes strongly how I will and will not wield that authority and what my ultimate goals are by doing so. For instance, one time I took Carol sexually when she was actively and adamantly not in the mood (actually, she was kind of furious with me). I found the experience... unsatisfying so it hasn't been repeated. But that very thing is often times considered a staple of a strong authority dynamic.

As is always true, the answer depends a lot on what, specifically, is being measured.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 60
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