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RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 10:08:39 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cenladom

Should a pre-owned slave be able to provide a reference from their former Master? As a Master, would you object to providing information to a potential new owner? I have considered, and decided against owning several slaves because their pasts were so vague. I want to know the slave was released by their Master, and why. I've released slaves and provided them with a document of release which included my contact information for a potential new Master to contact me.

Give me your thoughts.

Taking on a released slave can mean taking on another man's problems.

That said, different people are different people. Who would consider or even want references from a partner's former lover?

I think for myself and make my own decisions. I'm not really interested in someone else's dynamic.

(in reply to cenladom)

Post #: 61

RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 10:42:03 AM

graceadieu

Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

In reading all of the posts on this thread I believe there are at least two mindsets being reflected that are based upon the poster's outlook on what a satisfactory M/s or D/s situation is for THEM.

For a more formal, leather type situation, which many involved in BDSM do have........something along the lines of much of LadyPact's background, I can see where the referral would be a valid issue. As it may with a strictly bottom/Top situation, especially where there is S&M involved.

From what I've seen, those that scoff are approaching the whole thing from a completely different mindset. For them, it is more about building a long term relationship. With getting to know the human being first, determining if that person is compatible relationship material. Something references will very likely not tell you. And quite honestly, most of these people wouldn't give credence to a negative reference regardless. They tend to follow their hormones(though usually called something like 'gut feeling' 'chemistry' 'love', etc rather than a basic animal, hormonal reaction) more than anything else.

That sounds like a good analysis to me.

I'm definitely in the latter camp, as least as far as relationship material goes. I've never asked or been asked for references, but if somebody I was looking to have a relationship with did, I think I'd assume that they were trying to take a short-cut around actually getting to know me and I'd reconsider my situation with them. I think getting to know the person, seeing how they treat me and others (the "waiter test" is a good one that some businesses use in management interviews - how somebody treats a waiter is probably similar to how they'll treat other subordinates), what they have to say about their exes, how open they are about themselves, etc is going to be a far better indication of character and relationship potential than an email or phone call from their ex. "Gut feeling" is part of it, but you've got to use your head too!

I think the only time I'd ask for references or accept being asked is if it was for a more impersonal or strictly T/b play encounter, like you mentioned. I remember a while back a local Domme was looking for servers for a kinky formal dinner she was having, and wanted references because she'd had some people flake out before, and I thought that was totally reasonable. And I think if my Dom and I were looking for somebody to teach us about, say, fireplay, we'd probably ask around the local community and see who was recommended. But we'd value that reference because it was somebody we'd met or at least knew of - and even then I'm sure we'd still want to get to know the person before I risked my skin.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 62

RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 11:08:41 AM

graceadieu

Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

You can believe that all you want but for many of us, the relationships have grown into TPE entirely because of that stress on love and the relationship. If he didn't care this deeply about me, all he'd be getting would be a bit of weekend kink.

He gets it all from me because he loves me. Without him loving me, I would never trust him this much.

In other words, because I went looking for Mister Right, I found Master Right.

This. Also, he gets it all from me also because I love him. That love makes me want to do anything, endure anything, become anything for him. And because of our love and trust in each other, I can surrender to him and let him set the boundaries.

I wouldn't do that if there wasn't love, trust and commitment. It'd just be bedroom submission with a play partner. Which is fun, but, like you said, just a bit of weekend kink.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 63

RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 11:27:43 AM

VaguelyCurious

Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

For a more formal, leather type situation, which many involved in BDSM do have........something along the lines of much of LadyPact's background, I can see where the referral would be a valid issue. As it may with a strictly bottom/Top situation, especially where there is S&M involved.

I think you've got it spot on, but there's also something else - if Lady P gets a reference, it's reasonable to expect that she will know, know of, or be able to find out about the person giving it. That's something you have to be connected to a community in order to do.

It's like a reference for a job - it's only as valuable as the person giving it, and leather culture, as an example, gives a means of evaluating the giver of the reference.

The internet at large? Not so much.

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 64

RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 3:33:26 PM

Malkinius

Posts: 1814
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline

Greetings all....

The quality of any reference is important. If someone is well known and respected, you will take their words much more completely than someone you have never heard of. If you see the words of someone here, their length of membership and number of posts may make a difference. Think of how much more weight someone has who 60 posts as opposed to 6 or 6000 vs 600. I know, number of posts doesn't indicate quality of posts but the someone with 6000 posts is better known than someone with 6 posts and much less likely to be someone's sock puppet. Yes, I also know that some long time posters here and elsewhere have turned out to be fakes of some sort. Some were nothing like what they claimed to be. However, those have always been ones that were unknown offline so the offline connections, which some have mentioned, do make a difference. If you are known in both places, your credibility as a person and/or reference does go up even if you are not known personally to someone who is asking you about someone you may know.

OK...all that being said, I know that the two camps, the love and relationship camp versus the formal structure and ownership dominant camps will never meet on this point. That still doesn't mean that most of the fakes and unsavory sorts will still mostly be in the no references camps. Only the really smart or experienced bad types will be on the other side so it still makes a good filter for them.

Be well all....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is community.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 65

RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 4:38:03 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius
OK...all that being said, I know that the two camps, the love and relationship camp versus the formal structure and ownership dominant camps will never meet on this point.

This makes sense to me. It's certainly true that were I viewing Carol as some sort of employee then I would, in fact, want references, a CV/Resume and maybe even a background check. All those things would make absolute sense in that mindset.

The fact that she is, first and foremost, a love interest to me... the other half of me in fact... makes things like references ridiculous. In that context, who could possibly know how she might fit with me? Heck, even Carol and I could not have possibly known.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Malkinius)

Post #: 66

RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 5:00:39 PM

VaguelyCurious

Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

In that context, who could possibly know how she might fit with me? Heck, even Carol and I could not have possibly known.

To be fair, you're looking at this backwards, kind of - from the point of view of an established, successful relationship with a woman who you can fairly assume by now is probably not a stabby stabby bunny-boiling headcase.

You didn't need a reference, because she turned out to be wonderful. Hooray!

But that doesn't in itself make references a bad thing - what if, going right back to the situation where you didn't yet know she was wonderful, she *had* been a stabby stabby bunny-boiling headcase?

You might be talking differently.

Devil'sAdvocate!VC

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 67

RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 5:23:58 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

*laughs* Perhaps. But when I think back to my vanilla days I just can't see myself questioning some woman's past lovers in order to get a better sense of her myself. Even if it were not awkward, I trust my own senses more than I would trust any third party. Actually, I get the information I really want by questioning HER about her past lovers. I'm looking to see if they were all evil rat bastards (in her opinion) -- HUGE red flag. In addition, I don't move into relationships quickly. There'd be plenty of time for me to figure out if I needed to hide all the knives :)

If I were looking for a new partner tomorrow, it would be exactly that same way and I'd be looking for a life partner not a slave. Bonus points if the life partner I found was suitable for ownership as I conceive it but not required. For me the dynamic will never come first. I've just got too many other outlets for my dominance to make it all that important. Yes, I love it. No, it's not critical.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 4/28/2012 5:25:15 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 68

RE: References for preowned slaves - 4/28/2012 5:28:41 PM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

For a more formal, leather type situation, which many involved in BDSM do have........something along the lines of much of LadyPact's background, I can see where the referral would be a valid issue. As it may with a strictly bottom/Top situation, especially where there is S&M involved.

I think you've got it spot on, but there's also something else - if Lady P gets a reference, it's reasonable to expect that she will know, know of, or be able to find out about the person giving it. That's something you have to be connected to a community in order to do.

It's like a reference for a job - it's only as valuable as the person giving it, and leather culture, as an example, gives a means of evaluating the giver of the reference.

The internet at large? Not so much.

Indeed. We are on the same page. I wasn't even thinking about internet crap. That, to me, is irrelevant.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 69

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/1/2012 1:47:13 AM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cenladom

Should a pre-owned slave be able to provide a reference from their former Master? I have considered, and decided against owning several slaves because their pasts were so vague.

Oh fer-fuck's-sake, exactly what kind of fantasy world are you living in?!! Pssst... Google "DATING"!!!

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to cenladom)

Post #: 70

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/1/2012 2:18:14 AM

searching4mysir

Posts: 2757
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

LaTigresse....

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

In reading all of the posts on this thread I believe there are at least two mindsets being reflected that are based upon the poster's outlook on what a satisfactory M/s or D/s situation is for THEM.

For a more formal, leather type situation, which many involved in BDSM do have........something along the lines of much of LadyPact's background, I can see where the referral would be a valid issue. As it may with a strictly bottom/Top situation, especially where there is S&M involved.

From what I've seen, those that scoff are approaching the whole thing from a completely different mindset. For them, it is more about building a long term relationship. With getting to know the human being first, determining if that person is compatible relationship material. Something references will very likely not tell you. And quite honestly, most of these people wouldn't give credence to a negative reference regardless. They tend to follow their hormones(though usually called something like 'gut feeling' 'chemistry' 'love', etc rather than a basic animal, hormonal reaction) more than anything else.

You are mostly correct from my reading of the posters as well. You only leave out the "You can't tell me what to do," types. The ones you reference who are looking for a relationship first are the ones for whom I use the phrase, "They are looking for a Mister, not a Master." But then, I am also one of those who think if the relationship is all about love and romance with a bit of kink it is going to end up the bedroom only, weekend warrior type of relationship, not something very deep on the kink or submission side.

Be well....

Malkinius

Wow...rather ballsy (and stupid in my opinion) to decide that someone's relationship is less than when you aren't in it.

I have a submissive nature with those I love. I can take a lot of shit from someone if I love them. If I don't, my bullshit tolerance is quite low. I have no problem telling people to go fuck themselves unless they matter.

I originally self-defined as a submissive, but with Master (who will be my husband) I'm a slave. He is the only man who could ever own me and that I could ever give everything to. He doesn't need to put me down in order to prove he is my Master/Owner. In fact, he prefers to see me fly as that is a reflection on him. I obey because I love him. I submit because I love him. I am his because he doesn't play judgmental bullshit games with me. Maybe you don't see that as deep submission, but then you aren't me or him and have no place in our relationship, so really, how can you possibly know what you are talking about?

(in reply to Malkinius)

Post #: 71

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/1/2012 4:00:42 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

I think that you are seeing negativity where none is intended. If a generic statement doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't apply to you. Why would you take offense at it?

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to searching4mysir)

Post #: 72

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/1/2012 9:54:36 PM

Arturas

Posts: 3245
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cenladom

Should a pre-owned slave be able to provide a reference from their former Master? As a Master, would you object to providing information to a potential new owner? I have considered, and decided against owning several slaves because their pasts were so vague. I want to know the slave was released by their Master, and why. I've released slaves and provided them with a document of release which included my contact information for a potential new Master to contact me.

Give me your thoughts.

My thoughts? A pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity, "cenladom".

I think accepting or discarding a slave based on the presence of a reference from a previous master is a dubious risk avoidance plan since he would not discard her if she was so good and a bad reference from him is an expose of his failures since he is responsible for her, yes? This leaves me with the best approach of making my own judgement.

Arturas

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to cenladom)

Post #: 73

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/1/2012 10:23:43 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

he would not discard her if she was so good

You don't subscribe to the idea that a slave is a human being, who might be ideal for one owner but not another?

K.

(in reply to Arturas)

Post #: 74

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/1/2012 10:34:59 PM

Arturas

Posts: 3245
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

he would not discard her if she was so good

You don't subscribe to the idea that a slave is a human being, who might be ideal for one owner but not another?

K.

Quite the contrary. My focus is on the master who is not ideal and so his reference lacks any good purpose.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 75

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/2/2012 10:06:33 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

I find this odd. I don't care how many posts someone has online, unless I know them I cannot know for a fact they are who they claim to be. Case in point, I run the sensual sexual torture group on Fet. Recently someone contacted me about one of my group leaders, a man I put in that position because he was sucessful at several diverse groups on fet. The woman who wrote me let me know that SirX had passed on the night before and she wanted to let me know since he was a moderator. I offered condolences but did not remove the gentleman from my mod list until I had dropped him a few emails questioning the rumor. Having been satisfied the man was no longer answering mail, I dropped him from my mod list.
This was a man who had contributed quite a bit to my group, and who appeared to know a fair degree of stuff.
So.. 2 days pass.. and though I NEVER check the main page where all the status updates of people on my friends list appear, for some reason I clicked on that page. And what do I see? Sirx had just befriended a new sub 2 hrs earlier. Within a few hours I happened upon his new identity, same profile as before, still looking for a sub for intimate encounters.

I don't care how long it is you might see someone online, there is some value to having real life street cred. When someone asks me about what this person is like, or that one, i offer my opinion based on real life info online. It is based on my observation of their behavior, play, and what other people have seen. I would never give someone an OK based solely on how well I know their internet traces.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius
If someone is well known and respected, you will take their words much more completely than someone you have never heard of. If you see the words of someone here, their length of membership and number of posts may make a difference. Think of how much more weight someone has who 60 posts as opposed to 6 or 6000 vs 600. I know, number of posts doesn't indicate quality of posts but the someone with 6000 posts is better known than someone with 6 posts and much less likely to be someone's sock puppet.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to Malkinius)

Post #: 76

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/2/2012 10:40:35 AM

sincelo

Posts: 122
Joined: 12/30/2011
Status: offline

I have had a couple use me as a reference without me knowing it. I never played with them but they gave it out to at least one female submissive who came to me AFTER things went sour. I don't believe in references... i believe in getting to know people.

_____________________________

(in reply to cenladom)

Post #: 77

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/2/2012 10:47:41 AM

girl91

Posts: 54
Joined: 6/28/2010
Status: offline

Really? People lie, a lot. So how will you know of their ex Master/Mistress is telling the truth. There are a lot of variables in which you could be dupped and played. If and when you find a slave you like, take things slow and learn that person, sonner or later their true behavior will show up.

(in reply to cenladom)

Post #: 78

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/2/2012 11:19:20 AM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

In that context, who could possibly know how she might fit with me? Heck, even Carol and I could not have possibly known.

To be fair, you're looking at this backwards, kind of - from the point of view of an established, successful relationship with a woman who you can fairly assume by now is probably not a stabby stabby bunny-boiling headcase.

You didn't need a reference, because she turned out to be wonderful. Hooray!

But that doesn't in itself make references a bad thing - what if, going right back to the situation where you didn't yet know she was wonderful, she *had* been a stabby stabby bunny-boiling headcase?

You might be talking differently.

Devil'sAdvocate!VC

It isn't backwards at all. People who are looking for relationships are not logically going to ask someone for the names of numbers of their previous partners. It is awkward, but also foolish. Being part of a relationship takes work, but is by no means a "job." As people get to know each other, a typical part of the conversation is going to be about what went wrong in past relationships. Yes, there are psychos who are going to be a problem, but for the most part, people are going to give an answer that reflects why they believe the relationship ended. That would happen even if talking to the person's previous partner. In any case, it is a bad way to go about starting a relationship. Anyone with half a brain (regardles of which side of the kneel they are on) are going to have issues with someone asking to speak with their previous partners about them. It's weird and it's creepy. A mature adult should be able to figure out about their potential partner from communicating with that person and taking the time to get to know them.

That said, it is also quite normal if you know someone who knows the person you are going to meet or have just started dating, to ask them their opinion about the person in a non-interrogating, conversational type of manner.

Certainly for people who don't consider their D/s or M/s situation to be a "relationship" are going to view things differently.

Regardless of where you fall on this issue, the concept that only the s-type should be able to provide "references" is laughable. D-types are just as likely to be pyschos that are sleazy and dishonest.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 79

RE: References for preowned slaves - 5/2/2012 11:37:10 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

When threads like this come up, I often wonder, are people's filters and instincts really that dead?

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 80

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