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RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/7/2006 1:22:50 AM   
MasterKalif


Posts: 648
Joined: 5/24/2004
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Lordandmaster, sorry if I sounded contradictory. My point is I respect individuality, and Im by far not what many consider religious...however I have these moral beliefs that hinder me from accepting gay marriage....why "copy" the European social democrats on this issue? why not have a nation-wide debate on better economic benefits or on helping more Americans stay out of poverty? I just don't see the terrible expediency of the issue. As polls have showed, many gay couples want to get married so they can have the legal benefits of what legally constitutes a married couple. These benefits go from housing to taxes and inheritance....that is the underlying motive, in my opinion for wanting to get married in the first case. I believe in freedom but not in everybody doing what they want because they feel they can or have to. I dont know if that made sense...Im sure I am full of contradictions, but then who isn't...anyways I am just expressing my views, not trying to convert you to my belief...peace Im going to bed.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/7/2006 4:55:18 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline
I already emailed my vote to my state senator to NOT  ban gay marriage. I say we need as much love in this world as we possibly can get, leave these people to their happiness. No one's rights should be stripped away and unfortnately in this country its happening not only to gays but women as well.

~Lashra

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/7/2006 12:57:18 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
I don't think everybody quite gets it. We live in a society where people have been conditioned to ask the government for permission for damnear everything.

Instead of writing, some erasing needs to be done.

1. You put anyone you please on your health plan. It can't be made so easy that if a buddy of yours gets sick you can make a phone call and get him covered. There has to be guidelines, but gender should not be involved.

2. If you provide more than half of the support for ANY PERSON during a given year they are a legitimate tax deduction.

In other words, it is not more regulation that is needed, it is less.

Now just what other issues are really important in this matter ? Inheritance ? Write a will. I mean really, do you really want junk mail to come addressed to Mr. and Mr. whatever ? Is that an issue ?

The tax issue is another thing, but it is so screwed up anyway, between married filing seperately, filing jointly, head of household.......All crap. Even looking at it from a straight angle, why do they care ? Why do some have to pay more because of their unmarried ar whatever status ? It has been put forth that the income tax chiefly exists as a form of social engineering, but that was someone even more radical than myself. Of course looking at a 1040 form, I cannot dismiss the idea.

If it is an income tax it should be, how much did you make ? OK the tax is this much. Why does my marital status matter ? What it amounts to is a status tax they way they have it now.

You see, with the current state of affairs I don't think anyone should get married the "legal" way. I know people who are more married than those with the license.

I fully agree that Gays shouldn't have any more problems than anyone else. Thing is the root of these problems is in government intervention in our private lives. I have a policy with the government. If I don't go to jail for not signing, I don't sign. I don't want their programs to insulate or paint my house, do ANYTHING to my neighborhood, nothing. Don't tell me how big my garage can be, or how far my grill has to be from my house.

Just bust people who steal or hurt people, that's all I want.

If they would just do that we would all be better off.

T

(in reply to Lashra)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/7/2006 3:00:38 PM   
Level


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WASHINGTON - The Senate on Wednesday rejected a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, dealing a defeat to President Bush and Republicans who hope to use the measure to energize conservative voters on Election Day.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13181735

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/7/2006 3:09:57 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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What a ROCKING post!  well thought out.

We do need to get rid of laws. Clean out the spoliage.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/7/2006 3:13:02 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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At least "this time" [and I do apoligise for the unwelcomed limelight, I myself get sick of hearing it]

-this time most of the people realize it is a stunt, wedge, device. So very agravating when there are real issues!

fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  :-)

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/8/2006 12:44:05 PM   
pinkee


Posts: 487
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evanesce

quote:

So, did A/anyone contact Y/your Senators?


I did.  I've been a contributor and member of the Human Rights Campaign for a couple years, now, and have definitely done my fair share of letter writing on this issue.  There is absolutely NO argument anyone can give that presents a reasonable, logical reason why two same-sex individuals should not be married.


Cudoes to Evanesce.  Do Y/you P/posters think Y/your US Senators read these boards?  Nip this in the bud!
 
http://www.thesoftedge.com/congress_web.htm
 
pinkee

< Message edited by pinkee -- 6/8/2006 12:45:21 PM >

(in reply to Evanesce)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/8/2006 2:36:46 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

So, did A/anyone contact Y/your Senators?


Been there, done that, got the FBI file....


(in reply to pinkee)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/8/2006 2:46:17 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
What really gets me steamed is their position that this is what the country wants debated in our houses of legislation, with the position of gravest concern and highest precedence. That this and flag burning are the hot items in our country today.

I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but in speaking for myself, I do so with complete outrage I say this:

I have a sister who is a lesbian and brother who is serving in Iraq.

To dare assume (let alone to claim you represent MY voice) that it is more important to me, as a citizen whom you serve as an elected official, to have you spend my money and time in my legislative forum debating my sister's right (as a taxpaying citizen of this country) to a loving and committed relationship, and all the amenities (right of attorney and next of kin, tax benefits as a combined household, etc) which we afford every other citizen, rather than the protection, security and very lifeblood of my brother, serving in Iraq to support this administrations agendas, serving in a war which has very little personal cost to you, let alone the cost of your life, is beyond offensive to me. It is a disgusting misuse of the powers we vested in our officials as well as my hard earned money, being paid to you in my tax dollars. And also is a woeful misuse of the time you are supposed to be spending on the legitimate and timely political and governmental concerns and issues of our nation.

Our country, and very specifically to me, the life of my brother, is in a very perilous situation and that peril is directly attributable to each official who voted for and sanctioned this war.

The first priority of my representatives in both the Senate and the Congress, and my nation, should be to protect the lives of its citizens, not to legislate religiously motivated bigotry... the gay marriage issue is not going anywhere.... how many soldiers were killed on the day you brought that non issue to the floor of the senate?

You have plenty of time to move onto the offenders burning the flag, to whom is being sexually serviced in ways you do not approve, to ensuring that the wealthy can keep their strangle hold on the wealth of this country, AFTER you ensure those men and women you sent to bleed for your convictions are not only outfitted properly for your war games, but are not being put in situations that no properly armored vehicle or 'up to specs' helmet can protect them from.. the loss that comes when you are put in a position of such civil strife, that you are forced to go past your own moral conditioning and commit acts, sanctioned or not by a signing statement, which compromise your spirit.

At some point, we have allowed our elected officials not only to forget, but to seduce us into forgetting as well, that they work for us. They are not entitled to make the public their servants; they ARE the public’s servants.

Which of you will call your representative and tell them how outraged you are that every day our citizens are dying, not because of a single gay marriage, but because of the war they gave the nod to.

When are we going to stop being apathetic or worse, harbingers of moral reform in a time of mortal peril to so many of our fellow citizens?

It takes more than the blogosphere to make change... step away from the keyboard and call your Senator, call your Congressperson.

Step away from your apathy and do more than muddle over ideas and desires for change, and be the person in your family/neighborhood/city/ congressional district, who uses their voice and their rights as a citizen of this nation to create change.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/8/2006 3:34:23 PM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
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I went to my local Democratic Committee Headquarters yesterday and volunteered.  It will be crucial to get the vote out in the coming mid-term election.  I hope everyone does what they can... it can make a difference.

(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 70
So much to say... - 6/8/2006 5:02:56 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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Hard to know where to start with this government, and I could write (and have written) for hours about this arrogant insanity.

But let me just confine myself to a piece I published in Newsday in 2001:

Meaning What?

“For every complex problem there is a simple solution.
And it’s always wrong.”
--H. L. Mencken

Listen to almost any political speech--it'll come up soon--"family values." This became an incessant mantra in the late 20th century, and it’s so far a mainstay of the 21st--all candidates, all parties, every issue, every election. "I'm fighting for families," runs the claim, implying that some evil government somewhere is plotting against the American family. But just what are these "family values”?

The term is vague; no one ever lists "The Family Values." Context isn't helpful either. People throw around this term primarily to mean "those people who think just the way I do," but groups with opposing views also use the term. When not used to justify self-righteous piety, "family values" allows ad hominem attacks on straw man positions. Gay couples, single moms, political parties, education policies, tax cut proposals--all are guilty at one time or another of opposing "family values." The term is also disingenuous; 20% of Americans are single--are they unrepresented? Or are they part of the evil plot to destroy "family values”?

Actually, this context does indicate some meaning for the term. "Family values" seems to mean "it's just that simple." Of course, nothing is ever "just that simple”; social, economic, cultural, historical and several other issues are certainly never "just that simple," so a vague term like "family values" is quite useful for ignoring that reality. Don't worry--everything's fine. Now that's certainly a "family value." But everything isn't fine. There's war and poverty and human rights abuses and starvation and unemployment and difficult ethics questions to answer. But not in the land of "family values."

"Family values," then, means essentially the life of a twelve year old. Parents are all-knowing, life is fun, problems are simple and easily solved, just like on TV where beautiful people interact with each other to address problems always solved in 30 minutes. Everything at twelve has one, easy answer. Teenage confusion and the struggle toward maturity are unimaginable yet. It's good to be twelve. "Family values" is a way to pretend to be twelve again. "Family values" as a return to age twelve fantasy means an escape from responsibility. Don’t worry about anything that happens. Someone else is to blame. Go back to sleep now. You're excused from thinking today--you've got a note from your mom.


(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/8/2006 5:39:34 PM   
pinkee


Posts: 487
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

What really gets me steamed is their position that this is what the country wants debated in our houses of legislation, with the position of gravest concern and highest precedence. That this and flag burning are the hot items in our country today.

I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but in speaking for myself, I do so with complete outrage I say this:

I have a sister who is a lesbian and brother who is serving in Iraq.

To dare assume (let alone to claim you represent MY voice) that it is more important to me, as a citizen whom you serve as an elected official, to have you spend my money and time in my legislative forum debating my sister's right (as a taxpaying citizen of this country) to a loving and committed relationship, and all the amenities (right of attorney and next of kin, tax benefits as a combined household, etc) which we afford every other citizen, rather than the protection, security and very lifeblood of my brother, serving in Iraq to support this administrations agendas, serving in a war which has very little personal cost to you, let alone the cost of your life, is beyond offensive to me. It is a disgusting misuse of the powers we vested in our officials as well as my hard earned money, being paid to you in my tax dollars. And also is a woeful misuse of the time you are supposed to be spending on the legitimate and timely political and governmental concerns and issues of our nation.

Our country, and very specifically to me, the life of my brother, is in a very perilous situation and that peril is directly attributable to each official who voted for and sanctioned this war.

The first priority of my representatives in both the Senate and the Congress, and my nation, should be to protect the lives of its citizens, not to legislate religiously motivated bigotry... the gay marriage issue is not going anywhere.... how many soldiers were killed on the day you brought that non issue to the floor of the senate?

You have plenty of time to move onto the offenders burning the flag, to whom is being sexually serviced in ways you do not approve, to ensuring that the wealthy can keep their strangle hold on the wealth of this country, AFTER you ensure those men and women you sent to bleed for your convictions are not only outfitted properly for your war games, but are not being put in situations that no properly armored vehicle or 'up to specs' helmet can protect them from.. the loss that comes when you are put in a position of such civil strife, that you are forced to go past your own moral conditioning and commit acts, sanctioned or not by a signing statement, which compromise your spirit.

At some point, we have allowed our elected officials not only to forget, but to seduce us into forgetting as well, that they work for us. They are not entitled to make the public their servants; they ARE the public’s servants.

Which of you will call your representative and tell them how outraged you are that every day our citizens are dying, not because of a single gay marriage, but because of the war they gave the nod to.

When are we going to stop being apathetic or worse, harbingers of moral reform in a time of mortal peril to so many of our fellow citizens?

It takes more than the blogosphere to make change... step away from the keyboard and call your Senator, call your Congressperson.

Step away from your apathy and do more than muddle over ideas and desires for change, and be the person in your family/neighborhood/city/ congressional district, who uses their voice and their rights as a citizen of this nation to create change.



Amen Sister.
 
<adds puela's brother to my prayer list>
 
pinkee

(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/8/2006 6:42:13 PM   
pinkee


Posts: 487
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

WASHINGTON - The Senate on Wednesday rejected a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, dealing a defeat to President Bush and Republicans who hope to use the measure to energize conservative voters on Election Day.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13181735


TY Level.  Will there be a rehearing?  Do You know the votes?
 
pinkee

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/9/2006 11:54:57 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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Wow, I guess some people do get it.

Puella and Musicmystery, excellent posts. But that's only my opinion.

If people ever got together we could get a third party candidate, like a Libertarian. None of the current choices are valid. We need something else, but then we can't even be sure our votes are counted anymore.

This is not "Oh whoa is me", but more like a call to,,,,,,, arms ? Something.

Problem is, the military is brainwashed and the politicians are so stoooooooopid they have nothing to wash. Instead of the issue of whether we should be teaching math in Spanish, we should be teaching the US kids Spanish. No child left behind means no child gets ahead. This produces medciocrity, and eventually failure, but it is not recognized as failure. Every effort must be made to instill self esteem in kids that are 15 and can't read or write. Don't bother teaching them.

With free trade they will be perfectly suited to the new jobs created at Walmart, McD's and Burger King. We now export almost ALL of our scrap steel. Is it really wise to try to take over the middle east under these conditions ? We are very short on engineers and tradesmen because of these policies. We have an abundance of bank personnel, insurance company employees and government workers.

What do they produce ?

If you are in one of these professions try not to take offense, but there are too many of you and not enough people building things. Each of you had to take the best carreer path, if you are an insurance actuary, dammit you do deserve to make good money. I make good money basically fixing TVs, an even less useful position, but I do it, I have to do something. even though I fix high end TVs, they are still TVs and contribute to the dumbing down of the population. But then if I didn't I would starve.

Anyway, the Gay marriage thing is something that should not need to be debated with our taxpayer dollars, What about predatory lending practices, the exportation of decent jobs and the influx of unempoyed immigrants ? What about the fact the we are in a war based on lies ? What about the fact that highschool grads can't read their own diploma ? What about the crumbling infrastructure of our older cities, which is merely patched daily with our tax dollars instead of being fixed right ? What about all the waste caused by regulatory agencies taking the wrong actions, putting innocent people in jail while allowing the biggest of theives to live free, freeer than those who die to let them keep doing it.

You see the most tragic part of all this is that all the people who died in all the wars did not die for our freedom, they died for rich people's freedom. And the rich people don't seem to have to offer up their sons for this duty, for some reason.

"And you tell me, over and over and over again my friend, that you don't believe that we're on the eve of destruction". I read Revelations twice, and though I am not religious at all, some things ring true. But you can't go by that, we must stop it. these people are smart but stooooooooooooooooopid and think that somehow they will be magically OK when they nuke the whole world. I am telling you, they are like savants. Very good at a thing or two but can't tie their shoes.

Gay marriage is a smokescreen, the gov has nothing to do with who is married to whom. Their marriage license about amounts to an extortion license, and if you don't pay, they can put you in jail. See, as much as I believe a Man supports his kids, if he doesn't pay child support he get his driver's license suspended, if he doesn't pay alimony he goes to jail.

Go figure.

One Man's opinion.

T

(in reply to pinkee)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/9/2006 11:56:56 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline
You say a lot of insightful things when you stick to the issues.  Couldn't agree more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Anyway, the Gay marriage thing is something that should not need to be debated with our taxpayer dollars, What about predatory lending practices, the exportation of decent jobs and the influx of unempoyed immigrants ? What about the fact the we are in a war based on lies ? What about the fact that highschool grads can't read their own diploma ? What about the crumbling infrastructure of our older cities, which is merely patched daily with our tax dollars instead of being fixed right ? What about all the waste caused by regulatory agencies taking the wrong actions, putting innocent people in jail while allowing the biggest of theives to live free, freeer than those who die to let them keep doing it.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 75
Government Insanity - 6/10/2006 9:57:15 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
Thanks, Termyn8or

Tim

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/10/2006 10:52:42 AM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: misfire

I don't see the problem with gay marriage.
Nor do I see the problem with civil unions.

If the religious folk don't want gay people to get married in a church, then so be it.  Let them get married on a beach or in City Hall and call it a civil union.. 'cos what it all boils down to is this: no matter what you call it, you still have that slip of paper that says you're recognised by the government as a happy, loving couple -- and you're entitled to tax breaks and benefits because of it.

There's absolutely no reason why two people who love each other cannot be recognised by the government -- and given access to the benefits heterosexual couples are given.  (All the benefits are listed at http://www.gao.gov/archive/1997/og97016.pdf -- it's a 75 page letter, so.. you've been warned.)

*stalks off, grumbling about stupid wedge issues*



Those religious people have no damn right to tell my church who they should and should not marry. My church will marry homosexuals and I wouldn't have it any other way. Those religious people scream to the high heavens about their right to freely practice their religion. They should let my church practice just as freely. That's fine if they believe the Creator doesn't want gays to marry. I, and my church, believe two loving people should be allowed to marry regardless of their sex. Religious freedom, like all others, is a double edged sword.

Just my disgruntled thoughts.

*meow*



(in reply to misfire)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/10/2006 10:56:43 AM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee

So, did A/anyone contact Y/your Senators?
 
pinkee


Yes, but then again I contact my representatives about most issues that I take an interest in. They're probably sick of seeing my name by this point.

*meow*

(in reply to pinkee)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/10/2006 11:07:05 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
I thank you brother for serving. [sincerely]

[I hate the neocons version of reality.]

Best regards- to your brother.  :-)


(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Gay Marriage Ban Short of Votes - 6/10/2006 11:14:21 AM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

I will be honest here...I am not pro-gay marriage...simply because it becomes a religious issue (in my view), and most of the same sex couples want to get married so they can have rights as spouses and for inheritance and tax purposes. It is a free country, so everyone is entitled to their opinion, those for or against same sex marriages. Yes, even though I am young, I guess I am an old school conservative type. In any case, couples are couples, and each to their own...I also think gays and lesbians can raise children, and they are not "better" than a straight couple, it depends on who they are, what they are like, the core values of caring for another living being, that is what it comes down to. Therefore I agree with darq on this issue...those who oppose it are not short-sighted, or gay themselves, we just have a right to dissent to something we dont agree with, right? Just my view..... peace.


If it's a religious issue, what right do you have to tell my church they can't legally marry homosexuals?

No one has answered that direct question yet.

*meow*

(in reply to MasterKalif)
Profile   Post #: 80
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