RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (Full Version)

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Karmastic -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 5:50:27 PM)

it just depends on the situation, we all learn from each other, even the teacher. i think it's wrong to get stuck in or confuse role play with deciding who can bring something new and teach.




ResidentSadist -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 7:24:30 PM)

Dear RedMagic1 (and readers),
It seems to me that the BDSM society on the local levels, not the nationally or regionally organized events, but the public local entry point for newcomers, like munches, meetings and local dungeon parties is in a state of change. Like Jello in the fridge that is still mushy and hasn't found its shape yet. I too hope the mold for this new whatever-it-is comes up with some heart. I hear more and more reports from all over the US a new mindset is becoming the norm at munches. Yet the national and regional organizations still hold a leather heart at their core. I’ll touch on that again at the end.

I think that roots, as in our roots, those roots and protocols that the leathermen gave us, the roots that the panexual crowd applied to all sexual preferences, are something anything new should sprout from. Instead I feel like the new leather crowd has hi-jacked the BDSM monicker and cast out our roots and protocols like some cheap knock-off and lost the quality of the original. When I see discussions knocking using normal polite manners or protocols, which are the disciplines in the D from BDSM or I read an errant wiki entry that says D/s stands for the DS in BDSM . . . I want to puke. Who are these hi-jackers? How dare they rewrite our leather history on the internet, bury the leathermen and raise Castle Realm to the status of inserting D/s into BDSM. D/s is a subset not part of the founding fathers! How dare they bastardize it and take our acronym.

When a newcomer thinks a leather education consists of asking some dude who runs Castle Realm a BDSM question it annoys me. Then that guy answers with 14 sock puppets and the person reading it believes him . . . becoming the root of disinformation. Trust me, he and that website were drummed out of the corps for a good reason (directed at readers, not you. I know you know the story behind Castle Realm).

Like Hibby, I took that teacher/mentor target off my back a few years ago. However, show me something with some heart, and like the song says, I'll lend a hand.

Until then, we have to deal with insta-doms that get their insta-knowledge by asking questions in forums like these. And that insta-knowledge came from places like Castle Realm, posted by other noobs trying to look smart by having an insta-answer. How is a newcomer supposed to ferret out an insta-knowledge post from someone that actually lived it when this forum allows post count ranking and trolls to run free unmoderated or banned? At Fet it's no better, they mod their own threads/groups. How do you help someone into the fold on the internet when your voice is drowned out by trolls no matter where you go, here or FL?

Until a newcomer gets off their insta-ass and stops seeking insta-knowledge to read a book or get a mentor who has community credentials . . . they will just get insta-BDSM, which apparently comes with a big D/s in the middle of it nowadays. So to you newcomers reading this, go read a book. At least it was written by someone who . . . well, was smart enough to write a book. No sock puppets required.

Just take that post by Awareness as an example. The fact is we are products of our environment, whether taught or influenced. He says “rip away” to reveal the inner dominant? Rip away what, your conditioning from your environment. . . oh wait, so he is saying you can be taught or conditioned. How can he also say he is "scornful of the concept of dominance as a learned attribute or something which can be 'taught'"? Are we really supposed to believe we are being conditioned only to the degree it suppresses our true human nature of being dominant... but only if we are dominant in the first place? Wouldn't a true dominant nature resist conditioning? Seems like someone just wanted to make a post that looked like he has an answer. How the hell is a noob supposed to sort that shit out. Well, as an ex mod on another forum, the noobs value comments by poster's ratings. Awareness has a post count of 1200+, he must be an expert. That is why we used a voting/ranking system on my old forums.

Imagine this forum if your standing or ranking depended on posting relevant information that was quality ranked by votes. Now to all the newcomers treading down that not yet fully formed new road . . . imagine your local real life BDSM society, their munch and play parties, is a place where a Dom or Master's quality and standing was ranking by his peers and the submissives and other newcomers entered your world by referral with references. That is what Lockit was talking about and that is the Old Road and protocols being tossed out in the name of insta-BDSM. That is what I see missing at the local level in society today... respect for the protocols that helped raise the quality of the leather community, not the quickness of it.

So what's a poor boy to do? Keep in mind what I said about my forum posts being worthless because they cost me nothing, no sacrifice. I met RedMajic1 in real life and he is a quality person. We both had traveled to GreedyTop's wedding. He put his money where his mouth was and flew to Greedy's wedding. That involved his time and expense, real sacrifice. He was present by invitation, the same thing as a referral actually. So I met a stranger that made a sacrifice to be at an invite that he was present at because he was ranked by his peers and invited to the event.

Well you can meter the value of an organization by whether or not they put their money and resources where they mouth is. There are tons of regional and national organizations that sponsor workshops, events, conventions etc. And that is where you can still find quality people who have to sacrifice time and money to attend and expend resources to sponsor it. Real people with a visible vested interest in the leather community.

I am afraid, in this new world on this fast new road, the 15 minute drive to a restaurant for a public munch just doesn't count enough as a sacrifice to discourage the tourists and trolls now that there is no 'code' . . . the old protocol, the 'code of referral' that used to weed them out.

So to RedMagic1, I hope to see you at a convention one day soon my friend. To the readers, I hope you enjoyed my perspectives on quality and the changes occurring. To those paving the way in this new world, I hope you take time away from the fast track long enough to incorporate the best things from BDSM’s roots into your new road.

Best wishes to all,
Kalon Eric




LanceHughes -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 7:42:26 PM)

BRAV-FUCKIN-O ! ! !
 
As a gay BDSMer ("we" call ourselves "Leathermen") who is pushing your suggested age of 90, I can not agree more with ResidentSadist.




RedMagic1 -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 7:42:37 PM)

Thank you, ResidentSadist, that was overly kind of you, and it was a pleasure meeting you that day. I probably won't be at a convention, or any public event, until 2013. I'm scheduled heavily until at least the end of this year.

I'll let the rest of your words stand on their own.

I do believe you can be pleased that the youthful scene has teacherstudents like VaguelyCurious. I think very few people unfamiliar with her would be able to guess her age from her posts or her level of knowledge. Internet BDSM has created some good monsters along with the bad.[;)]

Nice OP, Lockit.




Lockit -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 7:45:18 PM)

Wow... just wow! [:D] I need to come back and read all this tomorrow when the brain cells are working better!

Thank you!




subbyinlosangele -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 8:06:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Okay, it may be no secret, why I am posting this, but because of what was said on another thread, I wondered how many believed that dominants were to be leaders and teachers in the 'community' at large.

Personally, I don't believe that one must be a leader or teacher within a 'community' to be a dominant. I do believe that when we put ourselves out there as a teacher or leader to a large group of strangers and hold this self appointed position or think we do... you have a lot of room for right way and wrong way, egos, misinformation and on and on. I would also expect that you better be ready to be accountable.

There are a lot of people that share their knowledge, but don't take up a position unless others place them in one, of a leader or teacher. They would be the first from what I have seen to dispel any title someone gave them, but wouldn't mind so much if people respected them because of their knowledge or sharing of what they knew.

So it was basically implied that dominants should be leading and teaching the new people from I guess some position of authority. If they didn't, they were not real dominants.

What say you?




Just because someone is dominant in their personal relationship, or likes dominant kinky sex, that doesn't mean they would be an effective leader or teacher outside the BDSM realm. Heck, tons of leaders are actually submissive in their personal relationships, because it's a way to balance out their lives.




Awareness -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 8:19:39 PM)

I had a hunch what this was about and this post confirmed it. Yeah dude, you're getting old and the world is moving on. Deal with it.

Personally, I find the idea of prancing around dressed like a clown in leather with a bunch of strictures, protocols and rituals to be quaint. Rather like the Masons. In fact, almost exactly like the Masons. That goes ditto for the idea that gnostic leather knowledge is even relevant to being dominant.

Do you seriously think for one moment that your personal experience is even remotely relevant to most people? Unfortunately for your ego - no, it's not.

What you're hankering for is the hierarchy by which you enjoyed power. Nothing more, nothing less. You lament that your voice doesn't count for anything in a world which isn't interested in your roots. Tough. Do you seriously think everyone OWES you, because of your personal path? Good fucking grief.

Various European cultures have been indulging in kink for centuries, the Chinese for millenia. You as a bunch of Americans are fucking NEWCOMERS to the scene and you somehow think you're a founding representative of some kind of subculture?

Dude, you like dressing in costumes and beating and cutting women - you're not a fucking wizard in a magic circle. And despite your claims to the contrary, you're not a fucking TWUE DOM which is the point of your fucking rant. Phrasing it in 5,000 words doesn't make it any more true than phrasing it in a single fucking sentence.

You can sit and have a leather circle-jerk as much as you want, but in the end, it's still just masturbation.

The question is why people bother to self-organise into communities at all. The answer to which is pretty fucking simple. They do so because it conveys advantage. Not because of the desire to perpetuate some inane crackpottery from decades ago, but because organising into a community provides them with benefits from doing so.

As such, the shape of those communities will be dictated by the environment in which they form. If the leathermen self-organised due to persecution of homosexuals, what possible relevance does that have in a society which recognises univeral human rights regardless of sexual orientation?

I'll tell you - none. And so that community will die away to be replaced by another which serves the needs of its members.

You may be fooling the usual suspects with this rant, but you don't fool me. Not for a second. This is about you feeling old and lamenting the loss of both your peer group and your prestige. Get over it. Getting old happens to all of us. I just hope when my time comes, I handle it with more grace than you.




RedMagic1 -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 8:40:53 PM)

This might surprise you, Awareness, but I largely agree with you, at least with your structural analysis. In fact, I think your analysis of power relations is the closest to my own of anyone currently posting here -- although the conclusions we draw from that analysis is often dramatically different. I sometimes wonder about your past, though, and how in some ways we grew to see things so similarly.

There are major problems in most hierarchies and most subcultures, but that doesn't mean they have no value, even if they are dying in some ways. I don't own leather and have never been to a leather event -- and pretty much do my own thing about almost everything -- but I have a lot of respect for Leather families and many Leather traditions. (Though this probably means nothing to you, it might mean something to some other posters: Master Fire once told me I might be Leather and not even know it.)

There's value in shouldering responsibility, teaching others, and leading by example. That's what I took from ResidentSadist's posts. And there were checks and balances to ensure that happened -- and there are fewer now. I think you must agree that when you post on this board, you are more motivated by having your say (and maybe verbally clarifying your own intuitions) than you are by teaching something to someone else. If teaching were your motivation, your tone would be shaped to draw the reader in, and it's not shaped that way.




thishereboi -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 8:45:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Okay, it may be no secret, why I am posting this, but because of what was said on another thread, I wondered how many believed that dominants were to be leaders and teachers in the 'community' at large.

Personally, I don't believe that one must be a leader or teacher within a 'community' to be a dominant. I do believe that when we put ourselves out there as a teacher or leader to a large group of strangers and hold this self appointed position or think we do... you have a lot of room for right way and wrong way, egos, misinformation and on and on. I would also expect that you better be ready to be accountable.

There are a lot of people that share their knowledge, but don't take up a position unless others place them in one, of a leader or teacher. They would be the first from what I have seen to dispel any title someone gave them, but wouldn't mind so much if people respected them because of their knowledge or sharing of what they knew.

So it was basically implied that dominants should be leading and teaching the new people from I guess some position of authority. If they didn't, they were not real dominants.

What say you?



I know some dominants that would make great leaders and teachers and some that would suck at it. I also know sub who would do the same. To say someone is not dominant because they don't choose to is just stupid. Where do people come up with this stuff?




ResidentSadist -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 8:45:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
I had a hunch . . .

So did I . . . and thank you for so eloquently epitomizing everything I was talking about with your insta-post.




RedMagic1 -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 8:48:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
To say someone is not dominant because they don't choose to is just stupid. Where do people come up with this stuff?

Castlerealm.




thishereboi -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 8:56:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
To say someone is not dominant because they don't choose to is just stupid. Where do people come up with this stuff?

Castlerealm.


That explains so much




thishereboi -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 8:58:48 PM)

Great post. I really wish you were still in the Detroit area. I would love to meet you one day.




Awareness -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 9:11:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
I had a hunch . . .

So did I . . . and thank you for so eloquently epitomizing everything I was talking about with your insta-post.
Your complete inability to respond demonstrates exactly how right I am. Get used to it, old man. Your time has passed.




littlewonder -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 9:13:10 PM)

For me personally. For me, being a dominant personality means you dominate which means you lead, you teach, you do. Anything less than that and I personally don't consider them to be a dominant personality. YMMV.

ETA: When I talk about community, I mean everyday life in general...the people we are surrounded by in our general society.

If we're talking a bdsm community, I don't believe there is such a thing and it's not part of our lives so for us it's nil.




strangedesire -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 9:14:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

Mollena springs to mind.

Activist. Community leader. Leather Award Winner.

Slave.



I'm glad that you brought up Mollena before I got here. She deserves to be on the front page. (I maybe have a little bit of a crush.)

If there has to be a "community" I want the leaders and teachers to come from the same demographics that the community does. The idea that only people of certain orientations have something to share strikes me as toxic. Communities that routinely silence and disrespect a portion of their population are not communities that I really want to spend time in. The leader=teacher=dominant thing might have made sense in the "Old Guard" leather world (inasmuch as it existed) because everyone started as a submissive and ended up as a dominant. Dominance is no longer equivalent to BDSM experience - nor should it be, I think.

Also, I pretty much don't respect any opinion that starts with "a real/true dominant always..."




Awareness -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 9:30:47 PM)

In this particular instance, the perpetuation of the particular subculture has become its own end. There's something fundamentally wrong with a culture whose focus is "adhering to our leather roots".

I couldn't give a monkey's toss about what leather families do, although I find the idea of 16 year old girls joining leather families to be disturbing as fuck. Ultimately as long as they conduct themselves responsibly, their particular subculture variation is fundamentally their own affair. One of their number attempting to assert they represent the "true" nature of this community and their particular variation and rituals are important parts of the entire culture requires a particular combination of blindness and stupidity.

If there was a point to ResidentSadist's rant, it got last among the waah waahing over the things he no longer possesses and his childish reaction to the inevitability of change. His rant pretty much matches the same things all entrenched power groups express as they feel their power slipping away from them. In that sense, he's repeating history, although I doubt he has the wit to perceive it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
There's value in shouldering responsibility, teaching others, and leading by example. That's what I took from ResidentSadist's posts. And there were checks and balances to ensure that happened -- and there are fewer now. I think you must agree that when you post on this board, you are more motivated by having your say (and maybe verbally clarifying your own intuitions) than you are by teaching something to someone else.
You'd be surprised. Inasmuch as all of us post on this board as a way of expressing, contesting and proselytizing our opinions, I tend to post what I perceive to be useful. So much of what's posted here could come from the same two or three mouths and there's a lack of genuine difference in the opinions expressed. More so recently, although that puts forward the idea that much of the more interesting discussion actually sprung from ArPig's fictional characters - which is something of a savage indictment of the group-think here.

Oh, and if you don't believe me, go through and count how many posts are part of an inane chorus of agreement. For some people here, that would represent more than 90% of their output. Christ, you can even see it in this thread.

quote:

If teaching were your motivation, your tone would be shaped to draw the reader in, and it's not shaped that way.
Meh. I tend to believe you teach women after seducing them. You teach men after fighting with them.







DaddySatyr -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 9:46:23 PM)

While I'm quoting the OP, it is just a fast reply to just the OP:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Okay, it may be no secret, why I am posting this, but because of what was said on another thread, I wondered how many believed that dominants were to be leaders and teachers in the 'community' at large.

Personally, I don't believe that one must be a leader or teacher within a 'community' to be a dominant. I do believe that when we put ourselves out there as a teacher or leader to a large group of strangers and hold this self appointed position or think we do... you have a lot of room for right way and wrong way, egos, misinformation and on and on. I would also expect that you better be ready to be accountable.

There are a lot of people that share their knowledge, but don't take up a position unless others place them in one, of a leader or teacher. They would be the first from what I have seen to dispel any title someone gave them, but wouldn't mind so much if people respected them because of their knowledge or sharing of what they knew.

So it was basically implied that dominants should be leading and teaching the new people from I guess some position of authority. If they didn't, they were not real dominants.

What say you?



As a direct answer to the title of the thread: yes, absolutely!

As far as your actual post; I don't think it has anything to do with someone being a good dominant or not. I think it is has to do with someone being a good "citizen" in the community.

This lifestyle is just starting to get some positive, mainstream attention and I think we owe it to ourselves and to the community that we "give back" in order to keep the community going as well as growing.

I think, though, that this is true of just about any community; not just ours, in particular. The old adage about "You get the kind of (insert word) that you deserve." is probably one of the great truisms when speaking about any kind of society. If people just "take" from it, eventually, the community will have nothing to "give" to anyone.

Where would some of us be without kink-aware professionals? I would think that a good portion of them are kinksters, themselves. That's just a guess but to me, it seems to follow, logically. It's a way to "give back" to the community and keep the lifestyle healthy for ourselves for now and for the generations to follow.

So, while I don't think leading or teaching comes from any moral authority, in my mind, it does originate from a moral imperative. In fact, I don't think there should be any "position" per se but I do think that it is a duty; no different than the one that each of us have to our neighbor when their house is on fire and we own a garden hose.



Peace and comfort,



Michael




LadyConstanze -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 9:50:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

So it was basically implied that dominants should be leading and teaching the new people from I guess some position of authority. If they didn't, they were not real dominants.

What say you?



I disagree, somebody can be a very good dominant and just happy about the way it works for them, they might not be interested in "the scene" or mingling, doesn't make them less good as dominants.

Some people are good sharing their knowledge, but I always thought that a dominant can often learn a hell lot from a sub by just listening, I had other dominants teach me stuff, but quite a lot of the things were submissives - and let's face it, they are on the receiving end, they know how it feels.

Some people are just good teaching, some are not, and some with no experience think they should teach others and try to bill themselves as experts, even if it's plainly obvious that they couldn't dominate a lap dog or a frightened mouse!




VanessaChaland -> RE: Dominants to be leaders, teachers? (4/27/2012 11:36:21 PM)

Anyone can teach and anyone can learn from subs, Doms, slaves, Mistress/Master etc. Knowledge does not exist in one type only.




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