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RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/7/2012 2:23:35 AM   
SexyThoughts


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subbyinlosangele

quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyThoughts
But in the West, the only non consensual scenario I know of, is to find someone who has bills over their head, like mortgage payment or medical bills And if they do what you want them to do, you give them some charity to stay afloat a bit more. If they're ungrateful and stop, you stop paying and let societies laws sink them.

Throughout this thread, I can't really see that you're saying anything more than, "If you give people money, you can get people to do stuff they really don't want to do and otherwise would not." Which basically applies to 90% of the people who go to work everyday.
However, all the other stuff about consensual/non-consensual, illegal/legal, etc. doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


Not quite,
Contractual law is simply, people exchanging something legal, for something else that's legal
"If you give people money (or goods or services) to do legal stuff, the courts will be on your side if they take your payment, and don't do the act"
"If you give people money (or goods or services) to do illegal stuff (including selling sex) the courts won't be on your side if they don't do it"

This is why the illegal drug trade is so street violent, while the legal patent industry practically live in courtrooms and die of old age.

quote:


If someone chooses to do something because you give them money, it's consensual. It isn't extortion or blackmail anymore than it's extortion or blackmail to pay a janitor who hates his job but needs to pay his kid's tuition.
If you give someone money to perform an illegal act, it doesn't matter whether they use the money to pay for a kidney transparent or a week in Vegas -- it's still illegal.


Correct and commercial sex is illegal.

So back to the start of the thread
How do you make the courts punish a slave for breaking a contract? or, How do you make an illegal slave contract enforceable in the legal court? You can't, contractual law 101.

As far as the legal system is concerned, illegal contracts aren't legally binding, and illegal stuff should stop happening.
You have to find someone that wants to keep an invalid contract going under the radar, more than you do, and not go near the courts which will stop it and so punish them by stopping it.


Hence why I've got "devils advocate" as boilerplate in every post and "not a lawyer" and why I'm not recommending it. Merely pointing out, that's about the only way you can make a person who doesn't want sex; not complain about having barely-consensual "consensual sex", is if they're already in a position, where not having it is worse.
It's not legal, just that no ones going to complain. And if either side does, the courts will tell them to STFU assuming that a lawyer can't prove sexual harassment, coercion, blackmail, pimping, prostitution, unsafe work environment, claiming an employee as a contractor, incorrect workplace tax deductions, unpaid overtime, copyright on the background music, improper workplace attire, etc

It's quasi-consensual exploitation, with the catch22 that if it doesn't occur, people are worse off in a society without a safety net.

"Free charity for everyone" neutralise's "Nothing in life is free". #OccupyCM

Don't trust your freedom to legal advice off the internet, and don't be a dick.


< Message edited by SexyThoughts -- 5/7/2012 2:31:34 AM >

(in reply to subbyinlosangele)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/8/2012 2:20:13 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlekitten1

Perhaps a contract that binds people in ways that, even if it's not mentioned, makes them quite owned?
[...]
But just wondering if its possible to make a sneaky version of a slave contract that actually binds.


People do this around the world all the time. Slavery is the default condition. The difficulty only arises when the condition is voluntary. Remember that money is a measure of indentured servitude. Money is not value created and stored. It is work owed. And in Norway, for instance, if you own anything, you have to pay property tax. Merely for having a roof over your head, you owe society labor on an ongoing basis, and you can't opt out of it in any way, except by buying the indentured servitude of other people. The state pension fund owns 1% of all future labor on Earth, incidentally.

You could try to push the actually voluntary slavery thing through the courts, of course, but it won't fly because all countries will impose their own values on all citizens. You don't have the freedom to alienate anything held to be inalienable. And, of course, it doesn't work to push this up to the human rights courts, either, as those are explicit about it being impossible to be accountable for your own choices and that the right to freedom cannot be interpreted to include the right to alienate your own freedom. You can legally be put in jail and subjected to conditions of absolute slavery, of course. You don't even need to voluntarily commit a crime for that in a lot of places. But regardless of consent, another person can't hold this power over you with legal recognition, because of the state monopoly on the leasing of human beings, and its exclusive ownership of its own citizens.

This attempts to ensure that slavery be the exclusive province of the state, the corporations and the financial institutions.

Which is all beside the point, because you're asking whether screwdrivers work. I think screwdrivers work great. But it's sort of relevant to know if you're putting up a house, securing a picture frame, or trying to catch a fish. Because one of these goals is not well suited to a screwdriver. And the other two may be poorly suited if you're planning on using the screwdriver to hammer in a bunch of nails. For the picture frame, maybe blutack is better, and if you intend to keep it on a shelf, the little 'leg' on the back of the frame is probably more useful by far. Perhaps the right solution is a statue in the garden instead. None of which can really be deduced from the question of whether screwdrivers work, as a hypothetical divorced from its context.

"Is this doable?" can generally be answered "Yes." with the corrolary of "Whatcha trying to accomplish?"

So... yeah, I've seen contracts impose slavery, and I've seen people realize ownership... but...

Whatcha trying to accomplish?

IWYW,
- Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to littlekitten1)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/8/2012 4:10:47 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyThoughts

Legally you can't put someone under duress under any circumstances. For clean hands, any duress has to come from choices they make, like buying an over priced home. [...] But if they're in duress you don't have to help them for free. [...] or else someone independent will do bad things.


Seen this before. It works like a charm.

The question, to me, is one of initial consent.

If someone gets off on handing their partner an axe to hold over their head as they put their head on the chopping block, that's their choice. Of course, unless you're an asshole, you don't actually swing the axe. I would tend to think the hot thing for most who get into something like that is the idea that you could swing it, that you hold that very real power over them. The downside being that you could end up stuck with someone that may well wield that power in a destructive way. And that if someone holding an axe over your head has a heart attack, you die. Both of which may fall under a person's individual notion of acceptable risk.

Just because one has a consensual non-consent situation doesn't take away the duty of care element.

Legally speaking, we own our cat, but neither me nor Ars would ever dream of neglecting it.

Consider a jurisdiction or prenup or the like that compartmentalizes debt (where I live, you share debt automatically if you live in the same household as the person whose debt it is for more than 18 months, regardless of whether you have a relationship or not). Bob wants to buy a new boat, and has the money to do so. Alice, his live-in slave, is not working and has no savings that aren't in his control. She runs up a line of credit, and hands Bob the money in cash (untraceable). Bob makes the planned purchase of this boat, and starts picking up Alice's credit card bills, keeping the cash in reserve so he knows he can actually service those bills. If Alice wants to leave, she has to face the prospect of being eyeballs deep in debt, with no income, no savings, no contact network and no recent job history for her CV. So she needs Bob to bail her out and let her go, or she'll be left in an unlivable circumstance of her own making. And if Bob says he isn't interested in living with her unless she stays on her knees, she's facing the same sort of issue.

For practical purposes, this is an "inverted" credit purchase with voluntary coercion thrown in.

And if Alice gives her informed consent, I don't see a problem.

Of course, if Bob is a reasonable fellow, he has the money in cash, in a safe, whose location Alice knows. And he makes sure a lot of reliable friends have the code to the safe, and instructions to give it to Alice if he should die or otherwise be unable to keep his end of things. And if he cares about her or feels a duty of care toward her (otherwise, it'd be pretty stupid of her to get into it), then he won't keep the consensual non-consent thing going if she has a persistent desire to leave. That's the point in keeping the money around: it facilitates leaving and dismantling the framework of "voluntary coercion".

There's an enormous trust requirement in something like that, but I can see how it might be appealing to some people.

Of course, this is just one of a million different ways to rig a legal compulsion to stay a slave.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to SexyThoughts)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/8/2012 6:15:11 AM   
nequam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyThoughts

Prostitution or Coercion would probably be nearer neighbors than blackmail.
Since blackmail is more "you give me money or I'll do or say something that'll get you in trouble".



Actually, it's bribery where money's concerned. Blackmail is more 'i'll give your spouse the photos if you don't do XYZ for me'.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/8/2012 6:21:59 AM   
nequam


Posts: 20
Joined: 5/2/2012
Status: offline 		Making a contract for slavery is illegal

"yeah but is there a way around that, a way to do it sneakily?"

Answer, NO. You cannot agree to break the law, end of story. We can all fantasise about a world with legal slavery, but in the real, adult world you can't always have what you want. The question is, why do you want to have someone who doesn't really want to be there anyway? And if they have to be forced with a contract, then they don't really want to be there.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/9/2012 6:29:00 AM   
SexyThoughts


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Joined: 7/14/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nequam
quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyThoughts
Prostitution or Coercion would probably be nearer neighbors than blackmail.
Since blackmail is more "you give me money or I'll do or say something that'll get you in trouble".

Actually, it's bribery where money's concerned. Blackmail is more 'i'll give your spouse the photos if you don't do XYZ for me'.


Nope, it's the reverse of bribery and also unofficial. Since bribery is pushing money on an official to get them to do something they shouldn't, as part of their role.
You pay a taxi driver to drive you to the airport in their car.
You bribe a traffic cop to drive you to the airport in their car.


Blackmail is using information to change behavoiur
"Whoever, under a threat of informing, or as a consideration for not informing, against any violation of any law of the United States, demands or receives any money or other valuable thing..."

quote:


Making a contract for slavery is illegal

Yup

quote:

"yeah but is there a way around that, a way to do it sneakily?" Answer, NO.

Amen preach sister.
Dip those who think so in chocolate and throw them to the human rights lawyers

quote:

You cannot agree to break the law, end of story.


(Smoking, drinking too much, prostitution, speeding, flash mobs, flogging, assault, are against the law... yet often committed by people in groups of more than one)

You shouldn't break the law, which isn't the same as cannot.
You can agree to break the law, however the law won't be not on your side by definition and law reserves the right to laugh, slap you stupid, fine, jail and/or execute you, depending on the amount of breaking it catches you doing.

quote:

We can all fantasise about a world with legal slavery, but in the real, adult world you can't always have what you want.


Actually any corrupt, third world country with a biased legal system and no social net, can come pretty close, if you don't die there because they're shitholes.
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=11641
"It is estimated that there are currently at least 12 million men, women and children in slavery around the world. The modern face of slavery includes forced labour, sexual slavery, child labour, bonded labour, forced marriage and descent-based slavery."

The civilized world with its freedom, social welfare and socialized medicine for all, prides itself in not putting up with that shit.

quote:

[The question is, why do you want to have someone who doesn't really want to be there anyway? And if they have to be forced with a contract, then they don't really want to be there.


It depends if it's for play or for real?

For symbolic play? I'd say, for the same reason people like to be locked up in real chains and forced to do perverted sex acts they wouldn't normally do.

Submitting for real? I'd say, take your pick. The idea that if a little bit of play is good, then 10times as much 24/7 must be better? It proves something? People are stupid when in lust and/or love? People take risks with their lives that other people think are nuts? Slavery rebels more against the expected mores of society, because punk is too mainstream?

Enslaving someone who doesn't want to, for real, is generally not for good reasons. Pick a sin, Revenge, Lust, Pride... a total disregard for the laws of the land.
Generally you're a bit a of dick who has to grab, because people won't give.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

(in reply to nequam)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/9/2012 9:47:54 PM   
nequam


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Joined: 5/2/2012
Status: offline 		Sexythoughts: (Smoking, drinking too much, prostitution, speeding, flash mobs, flogging, assault, are against the law... yet often committed by people in groups of more than one)

You shouldn't break the law, which isn't the same as cannot.

If you go back and reread what i said, i said you cannot AGREE to break the law. A contract is a legal agreement. You cannot, by law, agree (make a contract) that breaks the law. i never said people cannot break the law. Since i have been burgled in the past i know people 'can' break the law.

(in reply to SexyThoughts)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/10/2012 1:06:12 AM   
SexyThoughts


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Joined: 7/14/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nequam
quote:


Sexythoughts: (Smoking, drinking too much, prostitution, speeding, flash mobs, flogging, assault, are against the law... yet often committed by people in groups of more than one)
You shouldn't break the law, which isn't the same as cannot.

If you go back and reread what i said, i said you cannot AGREE to break the law. A contract is a legal agreement. You cannot, by law, agree (make a contract) that breaks the law. i never said people cannot break the law. Since i have been burgled in the past i know people 'can' break the law.


A "Legal Agreement" is a legal type of Agreement, but an Agreement can also refer to people agreeing with each other on an illegal subject.
People can agree to forming a gang and robbing a bank. Or that someone needs to be fucked up in an unlawful manner. Or the ratio of stolen loot should be divided.
The Courts would call a Legal Agreement a Contract (baring certain circumstances) but an Illegal Agreement is called a Conspiracy.

I never said, that you said, that people cannot break the law. I disagreed with "People can't agree to break the law"
People can agree to anything, no matter how retarded. The courts however will only enforce the legal agreements and the cops use the illegal agreements as evidence.

(in reply to nequam)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/10/2012 2:34:14 AM   
Alecta


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Status: offline 		You CAN agree to break the law in a number of countries, including China. Although this in turn opens you up to being prosecuted for agreeing to break the law.

Please bear in mind that law is not a universal subject, as much as we like to believe so. It changes from state/province to state/province, country to country, even, in some places, tribe to tribe.

(in reply to SexyThoughts)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/10/2012 2:43:37 AM   
nequam


Posts: 20
Joined: 5/2/2012
Status: offline 		Excuse me for answering a question but not putting down every little word.

You cannot agree to break the law...what i meant in the much more expanded statement was. You cannot make a legally binding contract, which you expect to be upheld by a court of law, that would in effect, be breaking currently standing laws. For eg: a contract that would 'legally' enslave someone.

(in reply to Alecta)
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RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/10/2012 4:41:57 AM   
AngelOfSilence


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Status: offline 		No.

_____________________________

My lack of concern for your sensibilities knows no bounds.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/10/2012 10:58:51 AM   
Alecta


Posts: 1355
Joined: 1/19/2010
Status: offline 		I understood what you meant, Nequam, and I am saying that that is not true of all of the world.

ETA: to expand,
there are places in the world where if you agree to be a contracted prostitute (by signing a contract) but prostitution is illegal, and you and your pimp go to court to argue about the contract, the validity of the contract will be upheld, despite the fact that prostitution is illegal. However, both you and the pimp will also in turn be prosecuted by the law for prostitution.

< Message edited by Alecta -- 5/10/2012 11:05:18 AM >

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RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/10/2012 3:17:51 PM   
Karmastic


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From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		fr-

hmm, interesting thoughts above. reminds me of Muslims who avoid breaking one law by using another law.

i.e., it's "illegal" to have sex outside of marriage for Muslims, so in many conservative places in the Middle East, it's not unusual to have a quick temporary "marriage" lasting a few hours or days, to facilitate prostitution.

so in that sense, you ARE making a sham (but still legal) contract for what's really an illegal activity.

_____________________________

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If my experience level makes you feel superior, that is your problem, not mine.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/11/2012 2:05:55 AM   
SexyThoughts


Posts: 180
Joined: 7/14/2011
Status: offline 		Could be worse, at least a marriage implies consent.
In Saudi, women can't give evidence in criminal trials and prostitution is a beheadable offence, so guess how many servants report rape to the Saudi police?

http://www.hrw.org/news/2007/11/15/saudi-arabia-rape-victim-punished-speaking-out
" the court in October 2006 also sentenced both the woman and man who had been raped to 90 lashes each for what it termed “illegal mingling.” "

You may not be able to contract for sex in the Western World. But any Saudi contract that includes penalty payments for not showing up to work every single day, to do a legal task, in a room without independent witnesses, could effectively be one.
Since you either
* Turn up to "scrub the floor" and be raped.
* Don't turn up and be penalised for not scrubbing the floor.
* Turn up, be raped in the middle of scrubbing, then threatened with a penalty, if you don't finish scrubbing the whole floor.
* Or admit to the courts, sex happened during your rape, and see what they do when sexual misconduct is a crime and the only witnesses aren't on your side.

http://www.fpif.org/articles/sexual_prey_in_the_saudi_jungle

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154472.htm
Fuck getting a lawyer, run for an embassy
". Some embassies from countries with large domestic employee populations maintained safe houses for citizens fleeing situations that amounted to bondage. According to embassy representatives, victims usually sought legal help from police and from embassies to obtain end-of-service benefits and exit visas. Criminal charges against abusive employers were rarely filed.
Many noncitizen workers, particularly domestic employees, were not able to exercise their right to remove themselves from dangerous situations, and employers occasionally left them locked inside the home or threatened them with nonpayment if they left."



< Message edited by SexyThoughts -- 5/11/2012 3:04:16 AM >

(in reply to Karmastic)
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RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/13/2012 11:54:04 AM   
ryansalone


Posts: 21
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Status: offline 		Awesome!!!

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/13/2012 4:48:39 PM   
Tyraen


Posts: 21
Joined: 9/23/2010
Status: offline 		In this country there is no contract that can allow you to have any real ownership over another person beyond their will to allow it to happen. Any sort of contract you could possibly come up with, no matter how contrived or well thought out it may be, inevitably if the person "losing" ownership of themself decides that they no longer wish to participate, you have absolutely no legal power to stop them.

In order to get the level of kink out of owning someone like this you are just going to have to bring in as much suspension of disbelief as possible, creating a contract of which the gist is basically whatever ownership means to you and that you and your partner both believe as best as you can that it really is binding, so you can get off on the idea or fulfill whatever this is supposed to accomplish.

Like Alecta said, basically all a contract in this kind of situation can be is a prop for your play.

(in reply to littlewonder)
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RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/14/2012 6:04:08 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyraen

In this country there is no contract that can allow you to have any real ownership over another person beyond their will to allow it to happen.


Since when did ownership necessarily mean having a nation state acknowledge a property relation?

If that is what constitutes ownership to your mind, I would encourage reflecting on its implications.

quote:

Any sort of contract you could possibly come up with, no matter how contrived or well thought out it may be, inevitably if the person "losing" ownership of themself decides that they no longer wish to participate, you have absolutely no legal power to stop them.


Legal power has little to no role in stopping anyone. People are governed by more than laws. For the vast majority of people, it is sufficient to perceive that a person of authority wills something (Milgram et al). For the rest, losing comfort or enduring hardship is usually adequate to cause compliance. You think law is what keeps people in white slavery, for instance? It is the unwillingness to choose the consequences of leaving slavery that keeps people in a collar, most of the time. Some people have a higher tolerance for consequences than others, or a lower tolerance for slavery, that's all.

quote:

In order to get the level of kink out of owning someone like this you are just going to have to bring in as much suspension of disbelief as possible, creating a contract of which the gist is basically whatever ownership means to you and that you and your partner both believe as best as you can that it really is binding, so you can get off on the idea or fulfill whatever this is supposed to accomplish.


Suspense of disbelief isn't necessary, contract or not.

And the question posed was a hypothetical one by the OP.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Tyraen)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/15/2012 12:40:05 AM   
SexyThoughts


Posts: 180
Joined: 7/14/2011
Status: offline 		I'm going to say, real slavery is against the grain of the legal systems in the west. And there's overlapping laws actively working against it. People are sort-of slaves to the dollar and you can sort-of [ab]use that in a socially acceptable way, but even then there are limits.

In feudal countries, the legal system either supports it, or doesn't hinder it. And countries with no social welfare coerce consent. Though the civilized world is doing its bit through the UN to get a global ban

FL is multi country, plus we travel, so for any argument, assuming one rule for the whole world isn't wise.


And since one else said anything. Ryansalone: Play rape is a kink, real rape isn't. You've got to actively signal sarcasm, otherwise that "awesome" of yours might be misconstrued as supporting real-rape, which makes you a "that guy"

< Message edited by SexyThoughts -- 5/15/2012 12:53:29 AM >

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/15/2012 12:56:08 AM   
Tyraen


Posts: 21
Joined: 9/23/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


Since when did ownership necessarily mean having a nation state acknowledge a property relation?

If that is what constitutes ownership to your mind, I would encourage reflecting on its implications.


Well if there is no law or authority over ownership, then anyone can claim they own anything. Having laws to back up ownership gives that ownership substance.

quote:



Legal power has little to no role in stopping anyone. People are governed by more than laws. For the vast majority of people, it is sufficient to perceive that a person of authority wills something (Milgram et al). For the rest, losing comfort or enduring hardship is usually adequate to cause compliance. You think law is what keeps people in white slavery, for instance? It is the unwillingness to choose the consequences of leaving slavery that keeps people in a collar, most of the time. Some people have a higher tolerance for consequences than others, or a lower tolerance for slavery, that's all.


This is true, i often say that if someone truly desires something strongly enough and is willing to sacrifice for it, nothing can really stop them. However that is not what the OP is asking. They want a contract that can use loopholes or wordplay in order to actually be legally binding. It was the last sentence in the OP.

quote:


Suspense of disbelief isn't necessary, contract or not.

And the question posed was a hypothetical one by the OP


The OP wanted to know if it was possible to make slavery legally binding. The short answer is no, there is no way this is possible. But their reason for asking might have been because the idea of submissive being completely bound to them by law, where they have no choice but to obey, to be a big turn-on, then my response was that the only way you will get this is by creating some suspension of disbelief, which is true since as already stated there is no real way to make such slavery legally binding.

At least, not in the U.S. Can't say for other countries.

Although I suppose that you could create some kind of trade contract where the submissive has to obey every (legal) instruction posed to them by the dominant in exchange for... well something, i guess it probably doesn't matter as long as it is an immediate thing, so the dominant had already fulfilled his end of the bargain and it would be up to the submissive to fulfill their end of the contractual obligation by doing whatever the dominant says.
That's all i've got.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Just a curious question about slave contracts - 5/15/2012 12:59:52 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, but no.  You got a paper I got a gun.   Locks only serve to keep honest people honest. 

If we are looking to have some accoutrements of ..............

Nah, fuckit.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Tyraen)
Profile   Post #: 60
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