RE: Training a submissive.... (Full Version)

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JeffBC -> RE: Training a submissive.... (5/14/2012 9:38:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Nothing screams louder than saying one has not trained humans should they wish to compare to dogs.

Well, I learned recently right here on these very forums that I HAVE trained Carol. I very much like comparisons to dog training. I actually think an awful lot of dominants should be watching Dog Whisperer. I'd say it's Carol who determines whether I am qualified or not. I readily cop to the inexperienced bit though :)




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Training a submissive.... (5/14/2012 10:28:55 AM)

While I've not finished reading though all the posts (yet)... I'm going to toss in some of my thoughts and deal with anybody showing up at my doorstep with pitch forks and burning torches.

Most People (in general) tend to think or believe they are extremely much higher above animals than we actually are. If anything humans are slightly smarter (questionable at times) than most animals.

Dogs have emotions, think and feel too. They have a wide range of personalities just like us humans. In many ways, there are similarities. People all too often dimiss the similarities and what we have in common with animals.

Good Lord... we are in fact part of the animal kingdom. Even our DNA is similar on many levels. If we were talking about insects or Spiders (which we don't share similarities with) that would be another story.

-------- (pausing for a moment to think about what to write next)....

Yeah, we have relationships with our pets. Relationship in regards to day to day interaction. In many ways, a pet is a reflection of it's owner. Hell, who has never heard that before? (if not you need to get out of the cave a little more).

Hell, dogs even have nightmares (just like us humans do). Anybody that has owned dogs before or grew up around them should know. The difference in personalities.. Hell even differences in intellegence between dogs. If you've own a dumb ass dog or a smart one. LOL

--------( Pausing again for more reflection )-----

Some even people treat thier pets better than other people or even people they are related to (LOL).

/// this is something to be said for how people treat their pets ///

Back to the character of the owner.

Also, let's not forget the aspects of Animal play in BDSM. with Subs/slaves being Dogs, Kitty Cats or whatever else.

There is also the whole component of human personality being compared to various animals. Who here is stubburn like a Goat? Who here is wild like a Tiger? the Whole animal persona business. (yeah that's what I'm talking about).

-------------- (another pause) ------

What's interesting are experiments involving Conditioning, which work on both animals and human beings.

Pretty Amazing how much we actually have in common (food for thought)



































Aswad -> RE: Training a submissive.... (5/14/2012 8:02:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David519

Does anyone else see the similarities?


I've used a single approach across breeds (including H. sapiens).

In no particular order: Care. Connect. Establish trust. Develop attachment. Learn to understand. Provide security and meet needs. Use feedback for guided development. Foster growth. Allow attachment to mature. Be patient and consistent. Be firm, not hard. Be flexible, not soft. Show appreciation and affection in a way that is honest and appropriate. Ensure you always know their mind inside and out, tailoring the interactions to where they're at and where they need to go, emotionally and intellectually. Tend to their entire being as well as you can. Take pride in your work and in your creation; crucially, act in a manner that leaves you with a relationship you can be proud of with a being you can be proud of.

Understanding the individual is absolutely foundational, and even if you "understand dogs", you don't understand all dogs.

I had a dog with an inborn illness early on. Didn't have any idea, until a stupefied vet told me she'd never seen a dog of that mixed breed live to become even a fraction of that age. By a few months, they are usually so deeply into a constant state of panick that they even attack their owners and just whimper in a corner unable to sleep from the terror. At a couple of years, mine just started to show symptoms. It comes down to attachment, feeling safe and so forth. Do a good job, they may still have some quality of life at one year. On instinct alone, with no input from anyone else, I got three years or so with her, if memory serves. Never did find much useful material in books and courses on dogs, except the same advice I'd been handing out for years.

As for humans, I've been with the same girl for over a decade now. Her mother thought she'd spend her life in an institution, or in an "assisted living" programme. Now she gives lectures at conferences. Can keep a home in order if necessary. Has overcome a majority of the defining characteristics of her disabilities. And so forth. This year, she's had fewer anxiety attacks than an average week back when we first met. In the time we've been together, she has blossomed into a wonderful creature. I will, of course, not take credit for this transformation. She has worked incredibly hard. I would, however, like to think I have played some part in making it happen.

This isn't about submissives or whatever.

It's about how you treat individuals around you, regardless of species and inclinations. Be a gardener, and your surroundings will blossom in porportion to the effort you invest in becoming one with them while tending to- and growing in- your role as caregiver. Humans respond in a certain way to a decent human being. So will a majority of social animals. Dogs. Cats. Rats. Wolves. Even birds, if you have the patience for it. Anything you can wrap yourself around. Your head and your heart, that is. If you can get inside, and care about what you find there, you can be a positive part of their lives. And a significant fraction will want to be a positive part of yours. Some of those are amenable to a collar, and will go a long way to be what you'd like them to be. Most creatures are careful about how much power they let you have over them, others not so much. But if you've proven yourself to them, they'll often give you more power than you're comfortable wielding. Which, I think, is a healthy response, not assuming that responsibility lightly.

I think you're taking a too limited view. It's not that dogs and submissives are similar. It's that both are social mammals. And those share certain traits. Be what they want, and they'll want you. Be what they need, and they'll need you. Be yourself, and you'll end up only with those that actually suit your personality, which is as it should be. But first and foremost, just keep in mind that you've got to care about them individually. If you appreciate and respect them for- and as- who they are, and take good care of them, then you'll have their love and their loyalty. And, if you care to have it, their obedience.

Whatever you can learn about a type of person (e.g. submissives) is irrelevant. The point is to learn about your submissive.

Which is the most important piece of advice I ever give dog owners, too.

IWYW,
- Aswad





Aswad -> RE: Training a submissive.... (5/14/2012 8:13:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

You can't be trained to have different personality traits.


It's difficult to change personality traits, and more difficult the older a person gets, but not impossible if they're willing to change.

I fail to see why a dominant would want to change into a submissive, though.

quote:

I respond to quiet confidence not a fake tone used to get obedience.


Since I just reviewed part of that movie... how'd you feel about Vito Corleone?

Just curious.

IWYW,
- Aswad.





Aswad -> RE: Training a submissive.... (5/14/2012 8:16:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Because dominant men tend to be sexist. There, I said it.


Do you mean to imply, then, that submissives are women that are attracted to sexist men?

Cause that doesn't strike me as a particularly favorable opinion of femsubs.

IWYW,
- Aswad.





RaspberryLemon -> RE: Training a submissive.... (5/14/2012 9:17:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: David519

Does anyone else see the similarities?


I've used a single approach across breeds (including H. sapiens).

In no particular order: Care. Connect. Establish trust. Develop attachment. Learn to understand. Provide security and meet needs. Use feedback for guided development. Foster growth. Allow attachment to mature. Be patient and consistent. Be firm, not hard. Be flexible, not soft. Show appreciation and affection in a way that is honest and appropriate. Ensure you always know their mind inside and out, tailoring the interactions to where they're at and where they need to go, emotionally and intellectually. Tend to their entire being as well as you can. Take pride in your work and in your creation; crucially, act in a manner that leaves you with a relationship you can be proud of with a being you can be proud of.

Understanding the individual is absolutely foundational, and even if you "understand dogs", you don't understand all dogs.

I had a dog with an inborn illness early on. Didn't have any idea, until a stupefied vet told me she'd never seen a dog of that mixed breed live to become even a fraction of that age. By a few months, they are usually so deeply into a constant state of panick that they even attack their owners and just whimper in a corner unable to sleep from the terror. At a couple of years, mine just started to show symptoms. It comes down to attachment, feeling safe and so forth. Do a good job, they may still have some quality of life at one year. On instinct alone, with no input from anyone else, I got three years or so with her, if memory serves. Never did find much useful material in books and courses on dogs, except the same advice I'd been handing out for years.

As for humans, I've been with the same girl for over a decade now. Her mother thought she'd spend her life in an institution, or in an "assisted living" programme. Now she gives lectures at conferences. Can keep a home in order if necessary. Has overcome a majority of the defining characteristics of her disabilities. And so forth. This year, she's had fewer anxiety attacks than an average week back when we first met. In the time we've been together, she has blossomed into a wonderful creature. I will, of course, not take credit for this transformation. She has worked incredibly hard. I would, however, like to think I have played some part in making it happen.

This isn't about submissives or whatever.

It's about how you treat individuals around you, regardless of species and inclinations. Be a gardener, and your surroundings will blossom in porportion to the effort you invest in becoming one with them while tending to- and growing in- your role as caregiver. Humans respond in a certain way to a decent human being. So will a majority of social animals. Dogs. Cats. Rats. Wolves. Even birds, if you have the patience for it. Anything you can wrap yourself around. Your head and your heart, that is. If you can get inside, and care about what you find there, you can be a positive part of their lives. And a significant fraction will want to be a positive part of yours. Some of those are amenable to a collar, and will go a long way to be what you'd like them to be. Most creatures are careful about how much power they let you have over them, others not so much. But if you've proven yourself to them, they'll often give you more power than you're comfortable wielding. Which, I think, is a healthy response, not assuming that responsibility lightly.

I think you're taking a too limited view. It's not that dogs and submissives are similar. It's that both are social mammals. And those share certain traits. Be what they want, and they'll want you. Be what they need, and they'll need you. Be yourself, and you'll end up only with those that actually suit your personality, which is as it should be. But first and foremost, just keep in mind that you've got to care about them individually. If you appreciate and respect them for- and as- who they are, and take good care of them, then you'll have their love and their loyalty. And, if you care to have it, their obedience.

Whatever you can learn about a type of person (e.g. submissives) is irrelevant. The point is to learn about your submissive.

Which is the most important piece of advice I ever give dog owners, too.

IWYW,
- Aswad

Excellent post! Definitely agree with all that you've said here. [sm=applause.gif]




JeffBC -> RE: Training a submissive.... (5/15/2012 9:09:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
I fail to see why a dominant would want to change into a submissive, though.

My friend once tossed out the phrase, "for reasons of secondary gain". I like that one. In the real world life throws us a bunch of oddball situations and we adapt to them as best we are able. For me, the most obvious answer would be some sort of life change that made it better for Carol and I were she to take the dominant role. Then my own self-interest would dictate I take on a submissive role and I'd be looking to make those changes internally rather than "in deed only" -- just as I have, over the years, molded myself in a jillion other ways to be a more suitable partner for Carol.

I think training me to be "relationally submissive" would not be all that difficult. Training me to view the world the way Carol does would be impossible.




Aswad -> RE: Training a submissive.... (5/16/2012 3:07:10 PM)

Yeah, okay, I can see that one, I guess. I was thinking more along the lines of "why would you choose to change without needing to?", but I prolly should've been looking a bit further than I did. That said, it's pretty easy to misstep if you're going to adapt to an external circumstance by radical internal changes, particularly if actually digging deep enough to change the outlook etc. (which I still hold to be possible, but riskt and unlikely to be desireable).

IWYW,
- Aswad.




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