RE: photo id required (Full Version)

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Raiikun -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 5:54:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The goverment has dont studies on this, and the rate of actual voter fraud is less than 1% per state at best.

Why should I have to show my ID for something that happens less than 1% of the time?



On November 8, 2000, the Florida Division of Elections reported that Bush won by a margin less than 0.5%. The resulting outcry seems to suggest that even under 1% is significant enough to be concerned about.




thishereboi -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 6:04:44 AM)



I never said that. Please learn to quote properly.




thompsonx -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 6:05:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The goverment has dont studies on this, and the rate of actual voter fraud is less than 1% per state at best.

Why should I have to show my ID for something that happens less than 1% of the time?





On November 8, 2000, the Florida Division of Elections reported that Bush won by a margin less than 0.5%. The resulting outcry seems to suggest that even under 1% is significant enough to be concerned about.



The resulting outcry did not seem to suggest any such thing.
The resulting outcry, as you well know, was because all of the votes were not counted.
It is still early but your post earns first place for"the most disingenuous post of the day" award.




SternSkipper -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 6:26:12 AM)

quote:


Twenty-five percent of African-American voting-age citizens have no current government-issued photo ID, compared to eight percent of white voting-age citizens.


People arguing in favor of ID at the polls during the actual vote can bitch about ID till the cows come home I proved a number of posts back that it's NOT a constitutional requirement and nor does the document give power to the states to order the production of a photo, or other ID at the time the vote is taken. Registration is probably the only legal avenue they can take and withstand challenge.
And they better be goddamned careful in how they word those new rules. The 24th amendment has been used rather creatively. Which is one of the things I was hoping that guy who name looks like its pronounced Ray-Coon (phonetically) would get.




Raiikun -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 6:31:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
It is still early but your post earns first place for"the most disingenuous post of the day" award.


Nah, that would be yours by virtue of misrepresenting my point.




papassion -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 9:15:16 AM)


Cut the shit about the hassles and "expense" of getting a photo ID. Plain and simple, The Democrats want no ID voting so they can "stuff" the ballot boxes.




mnottertail -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 9:16:57 AM)

And the republicans want voter id so they dont have to go out and write the names off gravestones, they can just photocopy.




Hillwilliam -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 9:18:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


Cut the shit about the hassles and "expense" of getting a photo ID. Plain and simple, The Democrats want no ID voting so they can "stuff" the ballot boxes.

Suuuuuuuuuuuure they do. Got a shred of evidence for that theory? I mean, what would keep the Republicans from doing the same thing? Are the Democrats so much smarter that they can figure out how but the Republicans can't?.




RacerJim -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 9:26:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


Cut the shit about the hassles and "expense" of getting a photo ID. Plain and simple, The Democrats want no ID voting so they can "stuff" the ballot boxes.

Suuuuuuuuuuuure they do. Got a shred of evidence for that theory? I mean, what would keep the Republicans from doing the same thing? Are the Democrats so much smarter that they can figure out how but the Republicans can't?.

They suuuuuuuuuuuure do. There's a mountain of evidence for that fact...but you and your ilk refuse to see it, much less accept it. Morals keep Republicans from doing the same thing. Democrats aren't smarter they just don't have any morals.




mnottertail -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 9:26:33 AM)

Well, corporations control electronic voting as well as republicans, and with swipeable ids, the republicans have the real key to falsifying the elections. 

Thats where it will go.




RacerJim -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 9:28:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And the republicans want voter id so they dont have to go out and write the names off gravestones, they can just photocopy.

Democrats don't want voter id so they can just photocopy the phonebook.




Hillwilliam -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 9:36:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


[Suuuuuuuuuuuure they do. Got a shred of evidence for that theory? I mean, what would keep the Republicans from doing the same thing? Are the Democrats so much smarter that they can figure out how but the Republicans can't?.

They suuuuuuuuuuuure do. There's a mountain of evidence for that fact...but you and your ilk refuse to see it, much less accept it. Morals keep Republicans from doing the same thing. Democrats aren't smarter they just don't have any morals.

Once again, show a shred of evidence.
As for your claim that Republicans are more moral, are you fucking KIDDING?????

I'll let you in on a deep dark secret. If it's a politician on the national level, it's probably morally bankrupt. It's not a D or R thing. It's a politician thing.

As for me and my ilk, you mean McCain voting white southern male gun owners?

What are you, some kinda pinko liberal?




mnottertail -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 9:43:41 AM)

Well they cant show evidence of any of this, the only thing they can show is republicans fucking republicans on youtube in republican primaries with all republicans conspiratorially enjoining the fucking. 




DesideriScuri -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 12:06:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

So, are you going to tell me there has not been any voter fraud?

Will you please validate the extent of voter fraud in the u.s.?
It has been explained in this thread that the extent of voter fraud in the u.s. is not significant. If you have contravening evidence please post it.



Extent doesn't necessarily matter. It exists. These laws will help prevent further incidences.




DesideriScuri -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 12:10:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure
having an id doeasnt prove citizenship it proves you are who you say you are You are asking that each registered voter verify who they are when they come one and say I am Joe blow of blower st. and its uneedeed. The names on the rolls are verification enough. if there was fraud aboutidentity it would scream out when two people said they are the same person A law requirng proof of citizenshiop at regisatration such as a birth certificate etc would effect all equally and is NOT what this is about and i wouldnt have an issue with


47 of the 50 US states (didn't look into the various US territories) require Citizenship to get an ID. Those other 3 states can decide how they want to go about verifying Citizenship for voting purposes.





mnottertail -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 12:10:59 PM)

Maybe when you figure out the debt problems you caused, until then, we are not going to waste our time and treasury with such trivial shit.  




DomKen -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 12:30:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


Cut the shit about the hassles and "expense" of getting a photo ID. Plain and simple, The Democrats want no ID voting so they can "stuff" the ballot boxes.

Suuuuuuuuuuuure they do. Got a shred of evidence for that theory? I mean, what would keep the Republicans from doing the same thing? Are the Democrats so much smarter that they can figure out how but the Republicans can't?.

They suuuuuuuuuuuure do. There's a mountain of evidence for that fact...but you and your ilk refuse to see it, much less accept it. Morals keep Republicans from doing the same thing. Democrats aren't smarter they just don't have any morals.

Present this "mountain" of evidence.




DomKen -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 12:33:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

So, are you going to tell me there has not been any voter fraud?

Will you please validate the extent of voter fraud in the u.s.?
It has been explained in this thread that the extent of voter fraud in the u.s. is not significant. If you have contravening evidence please post it.



Extent doesn't necessarily matter. It exists. These laws will help prevent further incidences.

Precisely how? If some massive conspiracy is afoot to fix elections by having fraudulent votes cast what precisely will stop them from producing fake ID's good enough to pass muster at a polling place?

All these laws will do is disenfranchise honest people who are poor or disabled.




DesideriScuri -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 12:39:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Yeah, I'm joking on this. Seriously, most folks that declare themselves of the conservative philosophy seem to approach life, liberty and the persuit of happniness by being mean, selfish, dishonest, uncomprimising, unwise, unintelligent, reckless, uneducated, and immature. I've observed sixth graders with more maturity, ability, and patience then the whole of a Tea Party rally. The worst of it is, that most of these folks will hold Democrats and Mr. Obama over the most petty things every hour of the day; but give a 'blank check' for the folks they elect to office to wreck the nation.


The same can be said about Democrats. But, whatever.

quote:


Sorry, but there is nothing offically on the books called 'Obamacare'. There *IS* the Affordable Care Act, that was put into law in 2010.


Did you know what I meant? Sure you did. Communication happened properly. Stick to the script.

quote:

Have you read the ACA from cover to cover? All 2409 pages of it? Its a pretty.....dry....read, and will cure you of any sleeping problems you might have to handle in life. But like a good conservative, you havent read it, and speaking....just like the grand majority of conservatives....from a position of ignorance. It would actually answer most of your questions, if you actually took the time to read it. You might just find that the law is either decent or should be better.


Holy shit. The Democrats that voted on this, when pressed for an answer, admitted they didn't read the bill. I tried, but I didn't have the time to track down every little change to existing code. At least Conservatives wanted to know what was in the bill before passing it.

quote:


See doing all those things is the 'old school' concept of 'conservative politics'. Unfortunately its not consider 'Liberal and Moderate' positions by most conservatives across the nation. If it doesnt involve 'oil, natural gas, nuclear, or chemical energy, the GOP doesnt want it. So making yourself more efficient, energy wise is something the president adovcates in favor of. Again, are you really sure your a conservative?


The difference is this: I'm not being forced to do this. I'm not being coerced to do this. I'm choosing to do this because I'm a cheap S.O.B. that doesn't want to spend money if I don't have to. If I can cut my reliance on someone else providing something for me, I'm going to look into it. Why did I switch the bulbs in the most-used fixtures in my old house to CFL's? 1. lower energy usage. 2. more appealing light profile. 3. I didn't know about the Hg in them. Why didn't I switch *all* my fixtures to CFL's? I already had a lot of incandescent bulbs. The house my ex kept faces North. Wanna know why? So the greatest undisturbed roofing area faces south, which is where my area will get the best sunlight. It's all about the plan.

I support a person's right to choose their path. Oddly enough, that's not the Democrat's intentions. It most definitely is the Conservative agenda. Choose your path and accept the results. If it works, congrats. If it doesn't, try again.

quote:


Yes, voter fraud has taken place. How OFTEN does it take place, DS? As often as murder? Rape? Assault? Battery? Speeding? Reckless Endangerment? No? That is because voter fraud happens so absolutely infrequently as to warrent much attention. The goverment has dont studies on this, and the rate of actual voter fraud is less than 1% per state at best. But your wishing to create hurdles, rules, regulations and oh yes...spend money....on the elusive, shadowy, boogey man whom enjoys voter fraud once every four years? Isn't the GOP the organization that tells America its in favor of reducing regulations, rules, and goverment spending? How exactly does the B.S. get justified with that platform?


Conservatism relies on Capitalism, which is looked on as "Free Market" principles. No Conservative truly believes that Government has no business at all being in the Market. Not a single one. There are regulations that are absolutely necessary to maintain Market efficiency. Once people get their ID's, there is not much more of a need for increased costs, staffing, etc. I'm not going to support someone not pushing for necessary legislation based on the fact that we have too many laws on the books. If it's necessary, it's because it's not on the books.

What was the basis for the Financial Regulation Reform, the Dodd-Frank Bill? The recession. Would the regulations passed in the bill have prevented the recession? Not according to the CBO. Did we have enough regulation to prevent the meltdown? Yes, according to the Congressional report on the matter. Regulators were too busy downloading porn to catch it. It wasn't that we didn't have the necessary regulations. We had regulators asleep at the switch. More regulations would do what, then? Nothing. Did the Fed fuck up? According to the Congressional report, they did. According to that report, the Fed bears the most blame since they have been tasked with preventing shit like this

Did you know that the whole S & L crisis was caused, in no small part, by regulations?

quote:

Can you show up a credible study or report that shows voter fraud his higher than five percent? How about four percent? Why should I have to show my ID for something that happens less than 1% of the time? Are you stating that until everyone shows their photo ID they are in the process of voter fraud.....and must 'clear their good name' before voting? Yeah, that was 'old Europe' thinking that the Founding Fathers didn't like; that a person was 'guility' until they proved their 'innocence' beyound a reasonable doubt!


So, you're all about dismantling the TSA, right? I mean, everyone gets checked or else they're not allowed to fly. You get checked to prevent a crime. Glad you're with me on that.




DesideriScuri -> RE: photo id required (5/8/2012 1:04:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Yes, because the Affordable Care Act is 'deficit neutral'.


Horseshit.

quote:

You cant quite claim that with the 'Iraq War' and those 'massive stockpiles of WMDs' that were never found. Because the information it was all 'based on', was a lie crafted by the administration that was put in power.


1. That the Administration placed all the information has not been proven.
2. I abhor how the War in Iraq was waged. It would have been over sooner and with fewer casualties and costs had they gone in and kicked ass the way our troops have been trained.
3. Might not want to bring up not having real reason to go into Iraq when we've gone into Libya (but not Syria) and Nigeria.

quote:

And who was the George W. Bush Administration put in power by? The same guys that bashed the American Reovery and Reinvestment Act as being a 'spending bill' that would do nothing to help American during a free fall of the economy. Notice we arent in a depression right now? Seems that 'Stimulus Bill' actually did what it was set up to do. In fact, if we had placed another $500-900 Billion on it, the recession would more likely be over by this point. Trust me, DS, its a very complex concept that most of your fellow conservatives wouldn't be able to understand let alone follow along. And it is best explained in another thread.


Notice we're not back to a good economy yet?

quote:

How exactly would a Voter ID law help those numbers increase for 'registered voters that did vote'? As most states of the Union in 2008 did not have any sort of voter ID law in effect. Or would the Voter ID law simply create 'one more excuse' for possible voters from simply not showing up to vote? Shouldn't we as citizens be trying to devise ways to encourage more active voter turnout, regardless of who they vote in favor of?


No one said that voter ID laws increased turnout. It was shown that it didn't decrease turnout. How would you encourage greater turnout? Offer cookies? People do not *have* to vote. That is their choice. Look how many times a politician will vote present, instead of yea/nay. I absolutely support everyone voting who wants to vote. I do not support forcing people to vote.

quote:

So, you would deny US Citizens the right to vote, as its laid out in the US Constitution on the grounds that you believe voter fraud is so widely rampant that extreme measures must be taken? In otherwords, you would violate the US Consitution because it suited your paranoia and not based on any actual, reasonable and well documented findings? That is where your having the biggest problem in your arguement; 4th amendment considerations asside. If voter fraud was 5-10% of voting booth totals, yeah, you could make a reasonable arguement for the introduction of a Voter ID. But we dont see thousand upon thousands of individuals voting fraudently, now do we?


As laid out in the US Constitution, Citizens over the age of 18 have the right to vote. How is it we are to be sure that our rules are being followed? just assume that because a person showed up, they are legit?

quote:


Actually that is your arguement that you must convince others on. That the Voter ID law was the primary reason why people voted in greater numbers, trumping all other possible reasons. Maybe those minority groups liked Sen. Obama more than Sen. McCain and made it a point to not only vote, but get others to vote with them! Maybe its a strange anomaly that will not repeat itself for a long while. Maybe at the time of the vote, more minorities were in that state than in previous elections. The point is, you have to bring the burden of proof to the forefront that shows the voter ID law was the major reason for the higher voter turn out, against all other possible conditions. And that is not easy for a political analyist to obtain let alone you or me.


You are missing my point. The elections compared were 2006 and 2010. It was not a Presidential election. Presidential elections *always* have a greater turnout than mid-term elections. That is why I compared mid-term elections.

quote:


The Voter ID laws are bad, not because Republicans lie on minor and apparently, major things. Its bad because it violates the US Consitution's 4th Amendment. Why should a person have to give up their privacy and papers (i.e. their rights) to a goverment to prevent something that doesnt even happen 1% of the time in....ANY....US state, commonwealth or territory? What's the next logical step?
quote:



As the stakes rise, the benefits of fraud increase. If one side or the other has more to lose or more to gain, there will be a greater chance of corruption.

quote:


Did you vote for Sen. Obama or Sen. McCain in 2008? If you voted for Mr. McCain you basically said 'your ok with EVERYTHING done under the Bush Administration'. Because it was looking like Mr. McCain would have kept us in both countries for another four years without anything changing. In effect, adding MORE money onto the deficit and debt while those soldiers looked in vain for a guy who was hanging out in neighboring Pakistan!


That is such bullshit. I voted McCain. My vote was cast not as supporting the platform of John McCain, but against the platform of Barack Obama. Huge difference.

quote:

In 2006, Republicans had run a very successful propaganda war in to the minds of Americans by associating any sort of 'draw down' or 'pull out' of US Troops as being a sign of surrender to the enemy that attacked us on 9/11. That WAS the mentality in this country at that time. To oppose the President was seen as un-American, even if the protest was legitimate.


Thank goodness we no longer have to worry about that. Now, we're only racists. Whew.

quote:


The person states who they are and where they live (it really is that simple). That information should already be on the list at the voting station (along with what party if any, they are registered too).
quote:



How much you want to bet there is more lying going on than any crime? Hell, might be more lying on a daily basis than all crimes in the US combined.

quote:

It is up to other citizens to not only state the person in question is not eligible to vote, but show valid evidence of such. At that point, the voting station police officers (which is standard for most states) become involved and check the information by having the person in question show ID. If the person can not show ID, they are given an 'absentee ballot' while their information is validated and checked. That is actually how the founding fathers intented this to work with consideration of the citizen's 4th amendment right in mind.


So, if I know the guy ahead of me isn't my neighbor, but is claiming to be him, what proof do I have? Do I need to go to the voting booth with pictures of us holding a beer and drinking in one of our yards (with house number and street sign clearly visible)?

Do you support fraudulent attempts to determine elections? I don't. I do believe that the un-Constitutionality of Voter ID laws is fearmongering and plain false.




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