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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 5:12:56 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?
I'm at a bit of loss for this only because I can't quite figure out what sort of domination is NOT mental.. even purely sexual domination seems pretty mental to me.

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?
Not that I want to get too associated with IE... but the thing we have which is close to that I think is my commanding Carol to see herself as property rather than free. Along with that comes the notion that she has no choice but to obey.

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?
I think it can be taken to extremes, but I don't see the form itself as extreme.

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?
*laughs* Uh... the kind that wants to be internally enslaved? More seriously I should think that a person with genuine strength and commitment and a healthy sense of self would be the easiest type.

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?
No. You can make mistakes... but "far" in and of itself is not a mistake.

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy? Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?
I'm not sure what "autonomy" means in this context. You'd have to elaborate on that. Carol appears perfectly capable of behaving in an autonomous fashion. It's just that I can override her autonomous behavior if I choose.

If your s-type loses too much autonomy, what steps do you take to rectify this? Can you "undo" internal enslavement and still keep the slave?
For me I could not undo what I call "IE" and keep the slave because IE IS slavery in my mind.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 21

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 5:19:19 PM

Alecta

Posts: 1355
Joined: 1/19/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?

I think of it as "as opposed to physical domination", creating submission through force of will, personality, logic etc, without the use of physical violence to bend someone/thing to one's wants. It occurs whenever there's a situation where the Dom/me "forces" the sub/slave to do something that they did not want to. Yes, I do do that.
I have quite a bit of trouble with the term, though. It always reads to me like "crazy domination". "mental" being slang for "crazy" lol

quote:

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?

I think of "internal enslavement" as the blanket annihilation of the sub/slave's sense of self, such that they become, mentally, a puppet, unable to think or perform any task without the Master's explicit instructions. I don't go with it much because I get really really bored of point-and-click. I think that's just lazy on the slave's part. I want my subs/slaves to think and act actively on my happiness. Being brought an unexpected present to cheer me up is sweet. Having to tell them to go get me a present to cheer me up is just hollow.

quote:

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?

I think it's normal. I think I'm being just a little more demanding (bratty) than the usual to want what I do lol From my observations, it seems the majority of subs/slaves find it easier to just be point-and-click.

quote:

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?

I believe so. Some people are naturally passive and naturally respond much better to that kind of structure.

quote:

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?

Yes, like all things, you can definitely go too far. Does depend on what you mean by "too far" too, though.

quote:

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy? Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?

That, I feel, is the difference between slave and sub. The sub has full autonomy over his/herself which s/he actively gives up in negotiated parts to the Dom/me when s/he enters into the sub mode. The slave has no rights to autonomy, and whether it has any or not, and how much, is at the discretion of the Owner.

quote:

If your s-type loses too much autonomy, what steps do you take to rectify this? Can you "undo" internal enslavement and still keep the slave?

Define "too much"?
This is a tough question. I do not think an Owner should expect to be able to keep a slave after undoing the slave's internal enslavement. Some will consider the Owner "a fake" or "not strong enough" and go in search of one who would let them stay internally enslaved. With those that don't, the Owner needs to consider that there needs to be a period of unDominated adjustment for the slave to internalise and exercise its new freedom. If the slave chooses to come back after appropriately "finding itself", that is of course a happy end, but the Owner shouldn't expect the slave to stay, that leaves too much risk for the recovering slave to go back into the cycle of internal enslavement.

The "how" depends very much on what the slave. There are some that respond well to being kicked to the curb, others can be coaxed by slowly increasing their load of decision-making responsibilities, some need professional therapy. Thing is, the Owner should at least know his/her slave well enough to know if he/she needs help with it.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 22

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 5:23:05 PM

DommesLesEnigma

Posts: 108
Joined: 2/12/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: punisher440

I'll answer the questions you've asked and my answers will reflect how it works in opinion. First,I see mental domination as getting inside your submissive's head,finding out what makes them tic.Using this information in the relationship so it takes care of both partners needs.

Second,of course the internal is a big part of any long term relationship,without it what you have is a play partner IMO.If you have your sub/slave's mind,the body will follow.This dynamic might not be what others seek,but for me it is and I have no problem waiting until I find the right one that craves/needs/wants the same.

Third,while I can't speak for anyone else,this is a large part of my relationship.Is it the main part? Probably not,for I try to have a mixture of it all,from the bondage to the spanking,from the mental to the physical.I see it this way,while I like lobster,would I want it for every meal? Probably not.

Forth,while some of the s types are more "into it" than others,I think most enjoy it on some level.Some want a deeper more binding level than others though.Every one of us,no matter which side of the kneel we are on see things differently.

Fifth,sadly yes,there are a few that you can take too far.Do I want a brainless s type that can not function in the real world? No! I want one that can willingly submit to me yet can still handle certain things as needed.

Sixth,To a certain point,in most M/s D/s relationships,the s gives up a certain amount of autonomy,some more so than others.IMO, part of the dynamic is the power exchange even if it is not total.

Seventh,here is where so many relationships fall apart.On some,if you give too much autonomy,the s type can feel that the M/D does not care or is not dominant enough.But on the other hand,it is very hard to undo a too heavy a hand.It's a balance and one that takes time and care to keep that way.Taking the time to talk and make sure both are happy within the relationship can make a very big difference.

The above is just my opinion and what works for me,I know others might have vastly different views and dynamics that work for them.

I agree, also too the ability to think on ones own with common sense when away from me.

< Message edited by DommesLesEnigma -- 5/4/2012 5:29:51 PM >

_____________________________

There are many people that have found their way. The great ones are those that help others find their way.

(in reply to punisher440)

Post #: 23

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 5:27:14 PM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

It's funny because I've never really thought that much about it. The goal of our relationship never was specifically internal enslavement, but looking at the out come it's there. I can tell by the way that I'll sit in the car waiting for the door to be opened.....even when he's not with me.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to DommesLesEnigma)

Post #: 24

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 5:44:35 PM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?
I'm at a bit of loss for this only because I can't quite figure out what sort of domination is NOT mental.. even purely sexual domination seems pretty mental to me.

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?
Not that I want to get too associated with IE... but the thing we have which is close to that I think is my commanding Carol to see herself as property rather than free. Along with that comes the notion that she has no choice but to obey.

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?
I think it can be taken to extremes, but I don't see the form itself as extreme.

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?
*laughs* Uh... the kind that wants to be internally enslaved? More seriously I should think that a person with genuine strength and commitment and a healthy sense of self would be the easiest type.

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?
No. You can make mistakes... but "far" in and of itself is not a mistake.

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy? Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?
I'm not sure what "autonomy" means in this context. You'd have to elaborate on that. Carol appears perfectly capable of behaving in an autonomous fashion. It's just that I can override her autonomous behavior if I choose.

If your s-type loses too much autonomy, what steps do you take to rectify this? Can you "undo" internal enslavement and still keep the slave?
For me I could not undo what I call "IE" and keep the slave because IE IS slavery in my mind.

All this spoke to me, most especially the first two sections. You said:

". . . I think is my commanding Carol to see herself as property rather than free. Along with that comes the notion that she has no choice but to obey."

This is the beauty part of being married for years, you get to go straight to the good stuff.

But now I have to ask an important question. Are there ever times when you are not certain that Carol will obey? In other words, do you ask her things of which, she may choose not to obey?

How certain of that obedience are you? There is obedience b/c you never ask your sub to do anything you KNOW they will not do, and there there is...

Asking more, and being not quite sure of the answer.

_____________________________

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 25

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 6:44:04 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
This is the beauty part of being married for years, you get to go straight to the good stuff.

*laughs* I so COMPLETELY agree. Although honestly that particular one took a bit of doing partly because Carol was worried that she'd lose herself and partly because "being owned" is a conceptual thing and she's miss experiential girl. After that, both of us had to create social roles in our heads. I mean seriously, I had previously associated owning a human with something which occurred in the past in the deep south. I wasn't exactly prepared to become a slave owner.

quote:

But now I have to ask an important question. Are there ever times when you are not certain that Carol will obey? In other words, do you ask her things of which, she may choose not to obey?

Not in the pragmatic every day life we lead. In terms of all the normal crap it's a given. There are commands we discuss in theory which are... more problematic. For instance, "Blow my friend". I'm reasonably confident she will obey as is she... but it's outlandish enough for a monogamous woman that the success of the command is not a given. I'm waiting for the right place, time, and friend to occur and then we'll see. Similar theoretically difficult commands we discuss are "strip in the restaurant" and "I'm switching our marriage to poly".

There is obedience b/c you never ask your sub to do anything you KNOW they will not do, and there there is... Asking more, and being not quite sure of the answer.
My fantasy gimped engineer's brain demands facts. That's why I have defined TPE as I have (total meaning she has obeyed every command given to date... a measurable thing). I can spin in my chair about the wisdom of giving a command... will it be good for us or not. But I don't hesitate just because I think she may not obey. For me, that would be an important data point to find out. I'd rather stop pretending she's my slave than live in the pretence of it and for me "slave" means "obeys every command every time". No, I've given her plenty of commands where the outcome was uncertain in my mind. Although just recently I found out that her "IE" (and for the record I dislike that phrase) was further along than I had thought. It may at this time be true that she really literally sees no other choice but obedience and so every command would be obeyed.

Honestly, between the two of us, she's "ahead" at the moment in terms of our dynamic. I think she's more enslaved than I have been willing to master.

I think it's also worth mentioning that I will, when I think it's required, spend months preparing her for some really obnoxious thing I want to do to her. For instance, the whole shift from "monogamous wife" to "you fuck who I tell you to" was not handled overnight.

Carol Adds
From her experience, just this morning I pushed her in a way which she was absolutely outside her boundaries (wearing slutwear in the grocery store at noon on a Friday). She had to go through the whole question of ignoring her own boundaries or compromising her marriage thing. As is usual nowadays, she pretty quickly settled into "What Jeff thinks is right, is right." That's kind of her go to refuge in such cases. She also mentions that I saw her fear and clarified the initial statement (which was imply I'd left clothes out on the bed for her to wear) to say specifically that it was sexy stuff but not anything obscene for a grocery store. So I do try to keep her from needless worry.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 5/4/2012 6:54:38 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 26

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 6:53:33 PM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

What can I say? Thank you so much for your contributions.

_____________________________

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 27

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 6:58:21 PM

Karmastic

Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Carol Adds
From her experience, just this morning I pushed her in a way which she was absolutely outside her boundaries (wearing slutwear in the grocery store at noon on a Friday). She had to go through the whole question of ignoring her own boundaries or compromising her marriage thing. As is usual nowadays, she pretty quickly settled into "What Jeff thinks is right, is right." That's kind of her go to refuge in such cases. She also mentions that I saw her fear and clarified the initial statement (which was imply I'd left clothes out on the bed for her to wear) to say specifically that it was sexy stuff but not anything obscene for a grocery store. So I do try to keep her from needless worry.

what store is this?

if i may ask - do you enjoy the aspect of other men looking at her, besides the TPE aspect? i want to know how to gawk without getting beat up

_____________________________

[Awaiting Approval]

If my experience level makes you feel superior, that is your problem, not mine.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 28

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 7:01:42 PM

mummyman321

Posts: 2102
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Dusseldorf
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?
In my mind Domination is almost all mental. True there are phyiscal acts involved with D/s but the TPE come from the mental. I wonder if people realize the small things. The way a Domme moves when she is being aggressive? The inflections in her voice to indicate she is upset, curious, adventure some. You learn to read your partner and whether consiously or unconsciously your reactions/body movements send a signal. These signals are mental pickups for the other person. Then there is the deeper mental domination. The purposeful plotting to see what type of reaction will happen. You know certain actions, body movements, voice inflections, eye turning will evoke a repsonse and you use this. Basically it is pavlovian training.

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?
This one is truly hard for me to answer. I never felt as if I was internally enslaved. I was committed to my wife/Domme while she was alive. The commitment grew with time and grew deep and wide. So I see this not as enslavement but more as commitment.

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?
I think mental domination is not extreme. I see it as a normal progression of the D/s relationship. If the domination were only physical that would be a very boring dynamic.

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?
I really cannot answer this. All I can do is speak my view point. My submission is given, so I see this as a choice and not enslavement.

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?
Anything can be taken too far or abused. So yes.

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy? Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?
I can only speak from the s point of view. I never felt like I ever lost my autonomy. I guess I could see that happening in a weaker willed individual. I cannot ever see it happening to me. But never say never.

If your s-type loses too much autonomy, what steps do you take to rectify this? Can you "undo" internal enslavement and still keep the slave?
Cannot answer this, I am the s :)

_____________________________

Life - Its not about where you are but about the journey to get there - I prefer to choose the road less traveled

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 29

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 7:23:14 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic
what store is this? if i may ask - do you enjoy the aspect of other men looking at her, besides the TPE aspect? i want to know how to gawk without getting beat up

ROFL, it's a big box grocery store in Canada... "President's Choice". In this context I enjoy several aspects. I enjoy the eye candy myself. I enjoy the "trophy wife" aspect which involves other men looking. And I enjoy the part about pushing her into uncomfortable places and seeing her obedience. In particular, today, there was an older gentleman who was getting quite the eyeful. I actively encouraged that... mostly because he was a gentleman and I saw it as a bit of "community service" to let him enjoy the view.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Karmastic)

Post #: 30

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 7:26:37 PM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

Interesting. There must be bit of synchonicity going on. I was kicking this thought around myself lately.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?

Mental domination for me is colored by my experience with marriage. I view it as someones ability to be in the right, regardless of whether that is true or not. For me at least, it made me question everything about myself, my beliefs, my talents, and my personality. Since I was already someone who had submissive tendencies bordering on slavery, this was devastating for me. It is the one thing which makes me gun shy about getting close to anyone again.

quote:

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?

Internal enslavement is different at least for me. With internal enslavement I wanted to commit to what ever it took to make my mate happy. There were things I never thought I would do, but no part of me thought of denying his requests. Internal enslavement overrides my will, but does not destroy it. It allowed me to keep "me" even though I was following him.

quote:

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?

My marriage was more along the M/s path. People who say there is no slavery never met my husband. Like the slaves of old I feared saying no to his demands. I know more than a few slave types, who have a less... horrific idea of what it is to be mentally enslaved, and who think of internal slavery as love.
I have to say I do think of internal slavery as love.

quote:

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?

I am not sure. Though I am fairly certain for me at least, that it has to do with my desire for someone I love, to see value in me.

quote:

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?

Yes and yes

quote:

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy? Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?

When I was married I never lost my autonomy, I just STUFFED IT THE FUCK DOWN INTO MY GULLET and bit my lip in compliance.
I have never been a dominant so I have no opinion on why my exhusband was such a dick. I do know "I" was too insecure and still had not healed emotionally or mentally from various rapes.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 31

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 7:59:51 PM

Karmastic

Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic
what store is this? if i may ask - do you enjoy the aspect of other men looking at her, besides the TPE aspect? i want to know how to gawk without getting beat up

ROFL, it's a big box grocery store in Canada... "President's Choice". In this context I enjoy several aspects. I enjoy the eye candy myself. I enjoy the "trophy wife" aspect which involves other men looking. And I enjoy the part about pushing her into uncomfortable places and seeing her obedience. In particular, today, there was an older gentleman who was getting quite the eyeful. I actively encouraged that... mostly because he was a gentleman and I saw it as a bit of "community service" to let him enjoy the view.

lol, be nice to old man day

i bet that supplied him with jack off material for days.

_____________________________

[Awaiting Approval]

If my experience level makes you feel superior, that is your problem, not mine.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 32

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 10:50:05 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?
When he gets into my mind and starts controlling how I think. Yes, it has been used on me in the past. It is much more subtle (and gentle, if that makes sense) in my current relationship.

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?
When I absolutely can not say no, and truly feel deep in my gut that I can not leave, either. When everything about my life is for him.

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?
Hmm, define "extreme" lol. I didn't in the past. I find it extreme *for me* now.

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?
I have no idea. I can say it was easier for me to become internally enslaved when I wasn't as strong or self aware as I am now. Basically, emotionally I had nowhere else to go, had given up on myself (or thought I had), and so the logical next step was to completely give myself over. I'm in a different place now, and I think it would be nearly impossible to internally enslave me anymore.

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?
Yes, if the owner's intentions are contrary to the slave's best interest, it can go too far, and has.

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy? Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?
I'd be doubtful that all s-types have a loss of autonomy. I don't. Nor is it my owner's point. He wants me to have autonomy. He wants me to be able to make decisions, and confidently state opinion, and yes - even challenge his opinions, at times.

If your s-type loses too much autonomy, what steps do you take to rectify this?
If he senses this is happening, he redirects his approach, or just tells me, and we change direction a bit.

Can you "undo" internal enslavement and still keep the slave?
I'm pretty sure this can be done, although it should be done carefully, slowly, and gradually. I haven't been in an "undoing IE" situation while still being kept. He undid it when he dumped the relationship.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 33

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/5/2012 12:24:11 AM

Whenready

Posts: 319
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?
Mental domination is my preferred form of D/s. If I'm not inside her head pushing her buttons, it's only kink and/or play.

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?
I don't. I don't "do" slavery. She always has a choice. Every choice, however, has a consequence. Slavery (or enslavement of any type) to me means no choice.

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?
For me, it's normal. Only you can say if it's normal for you.

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?
I would say so, with the defintion caveat above.

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?
As others have said, you can go too far with anything.

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy? Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?
Isn't that the point for many s types too?

If your s-type loses too much autonomy, what steps do you take to rectify this? Can you "undo" internal enslavement and still keep the slave?
"Too much" is in the eye of the beholder. In general, I would say - back off a bit - and smaller steps to find that edge without going over it this time.

(in reply to TNDommeK)

Post #: 34

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/5/2012 12:37:14 AM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

quote:

if i may ask, why did you feel the need to remind the previous men in your life; i.e., why did you worry about it with them? did they not show they could successfully do whatever it is you were warning about, or did they just not try to control you? duh me, maybe obvious answer here.

I felt I had to remind them because they were not very good at doing the small things that could make a difference or those things that you would think would be obvious but wasn't to those men I was with before. They never thought any further than in front of their faces. Some of them were able to dominate me....for awhile, until I lost faith in them and not because of the bdsm or sex or anything kinky but because their own lives were a mess and I simply lost any feeling of submission to them due to their lack of dominance in their own lives.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to Karmastic)

Post #: 35

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/5/2012 2:53:39 AM

Kaliko

Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?

I suppose I consider mental domination and internal enslavement to be an expected part of my relationship, to a point. I know of the terms, and I know to use them so men understand what I'm looking for, but I can't imagine any type of relationship of mine to not include this access to my self. To me, it's like saying I am looking for a man to have sexual relations with. Of course I expect to have sex, and of course I'm looking for mental domination. I kind feel like I shouldn't even have to say it, that's how much I consider it to just be a given. (To me, anyway.)

But...when I consider mental domination and internal enslavement in the context of a discussion such as this, I think of hypnosis and the like. I think of being conditioned so that a word from him actually causes a response in or from me, not just a feeling. I consider my action to be not passively allowing exploration and dominance of my thoughts and emotions, but for me to have a deliberate, intended, and measurable reaction.

quote:

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?

Regarding my second definition, yes. I know hypnosis is a sticky widget with a lot of people, and it is for me, too. I've had only very limited experience, but it was enough for me to learn that there is a difference (for me, anyway) between making the decision to give myself over and obey, and giving over control of my physical response. Unfortunately, the combination of a man who is adequately trained in hypnosis, highly ethical, dominant, kinky, attractive to me, intelligent, and with a personality I might fall for is a hard one to find. I doubt if I will ever dip my toe into that water again, and that's okay. It was a good experience.

quote:

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?

Yes. Mine. :) Just as there are certain people that won't go under hypnosis easily, I'm sure there are people that just won't allow others to enslave them.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 36

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/5/2012 5:07:58 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I''m going to preface this by saying that I've read it through a couple of times and I've got this odd feeling that some of My answers are going to make Me want to keep My flame retardant suit handy. I also happen to be on night three of insomnia, so if I don't do the best with My terms, just ask for clarity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I have been kicking a thread topic around in my head for a couple days now. The thing is, I want to begin the thread in such as way as to leave the topic as wide open as possible.

So, with this in mind, let's begin with some definitions and see where the convo leads.

I do have to tell you, CP, that I'm not surprised that you brought this topic at all. I think you and I might have had some similar thoughts bouncing around in the brain the last couple of days, even if it is from different perspectives and different reasons. Generally, I consider that a good sign.

quote:

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?

I am going to throw the cheesy answer out there and say, from My perspective, that it's the type of Domination that yields the greater amount of power and control, as opposed to the primary force being physical or sexual. This is probably sounding a little "one true way" to some, but it crosses My mind with enough frequency that there are repeated random examples that display those who lead with sexual Domination often don't have the same kind of inner strength. Before somebody accuses Me of being catty for that comment, I want to make it clearly understood that I see it in both male and female Dominants who use that particular method.

As for definition itself, I'm going with the technique used in the process of bending one's will to another. I say process because in My realm of experience, the greater depth of submission to Me has happened over time. I've seen in others that the instant "boom" it's just completely there from the beginning. I just haven't happened to share a dynamic with that type, rather than the process type.

quote:

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?

I don't know if anybody is going to understand what I'm trying to convey here, but I'm going to give it a shot. Call it the process from the s-type's side. It's from thinking, to feeling, to believing, to knowing without question that they are enslaved to another. That knowing can get to such a depth that it becomes a part of the slave's inner core. It's as much a part of them as any other form of inner consciousness.

quote:

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?

I don't see it as extreme. I do see it more often in those who identify as M/s, rather than D/s. The caveat to that is the possibility that My perspective may be slanted due to more exposure in the leather community.

quote:

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?

I'm not going to say a certain personality type. I am going to say that there are certain people who are more easily guided to internal enslavement. Speaking realistically, this can come from either a healthy place or an unhealthy place. Humans are just too complicated for Me to try to go into that in a quick, concise manner.

quote:

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?

I believe that you can. Of course, I think that's a very individual thing and a determination of too far has to come from personal assessment.

quote:

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy? Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?

Not all s-types, no. I'd find it really hard to believe that a high majority of bedroom submissives lose autonomy. Again, I'm going to associate this more often in M/s than D/s.

I don't know if it's commonly felt to be the point, but it's most certainly done by design. Just look at all of the ways this is subtly conveyed in our culture. (Again, very much so in the leather community.) We put the prominence out there of how much the s-type is associated with the M-type's identity. It's done by different degrees depending on the people and the dynamic itself, but it's not hard to see when you look for it.

quote:

If your s-type loses too much autonomy, what steps do you take to rectify this? Can you "undo" internal enslavement and still keep the slave?

These two are darn good questions, btw.

If the concern is too much autonomy being lost, it's time to put them in situations where it's the natural result that they gain ground. Maybe it's time to take that class that is based on one of their interests. I'm also a big fan of sub sigs (special interest groups where available. Specifically outside interests that are separate from the balance in the dynamic.

I can't say that I've contemplated reversing the process of internal enslavement while still wanting to keep the slave. It took Me a couple of minutes for Me to get something to connect as to why I would want to do this. I would have to get somebody to such a depth of internal enslavement that we're talking about things like damage or inability to function as a person in the world. Realistically, who does that?

To Me, I'd have to think that would be confusing on certain levels to the slave. (I'm choosing the term slave very specifically for this.) The concept of reversing internal enslavement, I would have to think, is easier to grasp on an intellectual level when it's done based on the slave transitioning back to independence when leaving active slavery behind.

quote:

Please feel free to expand and explore on these fascinating topics.

Thank you, CP

Thank you for bringing the topic. It has allowed for some more in-depth reflection on My part.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 37

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/5/2012 6:56:08 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

I woke up this morning to so many interesting and insightful posts! I will find time over the weekend to respond (I promise) but I need time to reflect, first.

I made a special point to get back to Missokyst, since so far she has been the first who admits to having a very negative view of mental domination (though she is self relfective enough to know WHY). Here is her post on that subject:

Mental domination for me is colored by my experience with marriage. I view it as someones ability to be in the right, regardless of whether that is true or not. For me at least, it made me question everything about myself, my beliefs, my talents, and my personality. Since I was already someone who had submissive tendencies bordering on slavery, this was devastating for me. It is the one thing which makes me gun shy about getting close to anyone again.

The entire paragraph resonates right through me, since I'm now convinced we were married to the same guy !!

Interestingly enough, she does not equate IE with the same feelings of negativity.

Internal enslavement is different at least for me. With internal enslavement I wanted to commit to what ever it took to make my mate happy. There were things I never thought I would do, but no part of me thought of denying his requests. Internal enslavement overrides my will, but does not destroy it. It allowed me to keep "me" even though I was following him.

Missokyst, I would love it if you could expand on that last sentence, above (TY).

A sentence from her about loss of autonomy:

When I was married I never lost my autonomy, I just STUFFED IT THE FUCK DOWN INTO MY GULLET and bit my lip in compliance.

I lived with my ex-husband for about 20 years, we had children together, bought a house, all the "normal" things that couples do. When I met him I felt I had found my dominant soul mate, the one man I could submit to. Looking back the red flags were there even before we married: his drinking, his lying, his cheating. But I was so in lust with his ability to sexually dominate me, that I blinded myself to his (obvious) faults.

When my children were little, he and I got on the best, b/c I was nursing two children still in diapers and was 100% dependent on him. Doubts would intrude every now and then, but at that point I was "married with children" and I took that commitment very seriously. (I agree with the Mummyman that so much of IE has to do with commitment.)

When my kids were old enough to attend school, I started my own business and gained some financial autonomy. This is when the real mental manipulation began. He was very adept at making me feel all my doubts about where our relationship was headed were rooted in my own failures.

Ten years later when I finally left, I was convinced no other man could ever want me, I was such a "ball buster."

To say this assessment had me doubting my switchy nature is an understatement.

Let's (please) fast forward to my current relationship, where I have if anything, even more IE than in my marriage.

First, let me say I too was very gun shy about getting too close. It's taken me years to get over that.

The personal autonomy, the strong ego and self confidence I'd enjoyed in the past, all these things came back. Trust, not so much.

Now that I am finally in a place where I can trust him, the Man and I are in a wonderfully great place together. I am internally enslaved without the (complete) loss of autonomy. The relationship with my ex made me lose who I was, this one has helped me find myself.

I could make many statements about what *I* think about the above, but prefer to hear other's opinions.

Again, ty all so much for this wonderful discussion.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 5/5/2012 6:58:34 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 38

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/5/2012 7:26:53 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I''m going to preface this by saying that I've read it through a couple of times and I've got this odd feeling that some of My answers are going to make Me want to keep My flame retardant suit handy. I also happen to be on night three of insomnia, so if I don't do the best with My terms, just ask for clarity.

I don't think you need a flame retardant suit. I really liked your reply, and didn't see anything I disagree with in it.

quote:

I don't know if anybody is going to understand what I'm trying to convey here, but I'm going to give it a shot. Call it the process from the s-type's side. It's from thinking, to feeling, to believing, to knowing without question that they are enslaved to another. That knowing can get to such a depth that it becomes a part of the slave's inner core. It's as much a part of them as any other form of inner consciousness.

I agree. These feelings might be driven or directed or inspired by the owner, but I believe it's actually the slave's process. I know for me, there was a point when I made a conscious decision to go there. I knew what he was doing - I could see it, and feel it. And I actually remember a point when I told myself, "OK, I'm going to go there - I'm going to hand over my mind. I'm going to let him brainwash me if he wants to. I'm going to go, do and be, wherever/whatever he wants." From that point, when feelings of resistance came about, I *chose* to discard them, and I did. It wasn't that one day I just looked back and thought, "Wow, look where I am."

But I did it because I didn't care. It seemed like my best option at the time.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 39

RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/5/2012 7:45:15 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I could make many statements about what *I* think about the above, but prefer to hear other's opinions.

Minus the children part, I went through very much the same thing in my marriage, and then my subsequent enslavement to my former owner.

But this is why I don't think I will ever be internally enslaved again. With my former owner, I came to believe I really did *need* him. That I wouldn't be able to function in life without him. This was, as LadyPact put it, part of me - part of my inner core, at that point. Things became very bad, and I knew I *should* leave, but I couldn't. I truly believed there was no way I could have or find the ability to ask for my release, and that this was a choice I had made, and if that meant being miserable the rest of my life, then that was my lot in life. No matter what my close friends were saying - and some were (are) very wise, enslaved women - it just wasn't an option I felt i could exercise.

In short, the need I felt for him was very real. He was my foundation - my axis. He was literally everything.

Until one night I opened my email at 3:00 in the morning and there were his words, telling me he was letting me go. No face-to-face conversation, not even a phone call. Just a chicken-shit email in the middle of the night. To say my foundation had been pulled out from under me is an understatement. I literally couldn't even breathe, I just sat there, with my lungs bunched up in my throat (or so it felt).

But guess what? I survived it. I got over it. Starting with an amazing friend who literally hung out on the phone with me, telling me to breathe in....breathe out....breathe in...breathe out....until I could catch my breath and breathe on my own again. Totally lost, I began the process of taking ownership of myself back. Of learning to make good decisions for myself. Of functioning for myself. Of being honest with myself. Of *knowing* myself. Of liking, then loving myself. Of being happy.

So I went from truly believing I *needed* that man to function, to finding inner joy and peace within, alone. Between that and the very ugly divorce I went through, there's a truth within me that says *need* like that is an illusion, and if the world falls out from under my feet, I can create a new one to stand on, and I can be happy - even happier.

So now I know, as close as he and I are, however strong that bond gets, I'm here because I want to be here more than anywhere else, but not because I *need* to be here. Because if he goes away tomorrow, yes I'll grieve, but I know I'm fully capable of picking myself back up and moving forward, to a place of happiness again. I know it because I've proven it to myself. And since I believe IE is a core belief of *need* within the slave, and I know that I don't *need* to be enslaved to him, IE won't happen for me. And I'm totally OK with that. I'm his slave because I've handed over the authority to him, and because I *want* to serve him and submit to him, but not out of need, if that makes sense.

Didn't mean to get all long & dramatic - it just takes me a lot of words to make my point sometimes

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 40

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