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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 5:47:43 AM

Moonhead

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I'd say "pathetic" rather than "ironic", myself.

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 5:51:12 AM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

There is something ironic aboiut a forum filled with people engaged in non traditional relationships and marriages argueing thet tradition dicates gay marriage be illegal.

I covered that in a post some time ago. One must realize that this lifestyle encompases a multitude of different individual relationship dynamics.

The "50s lifestyle" is a fairly large part of what we are and it meshes quite well with rightwing Christian, ultra conservative anti-gay marriage, etc, etc values.

Bottom line YKIMK (Your Kink Isn't My Kink)

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 5:57:55 AM

Lucylastic

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Actually I think it might be a breeder... but thats just me being cynical about a possible sack puppet account

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 5:59:49 AM

Mupainurpleasure

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Natural law has been dead as a basis for civilization since birth. it requires stasis and unchanging mores. If the law is aNtural it is immutable. Do we hold the same morality we held 500 yrs a go? Of course not when was the last time we burned a witch.It's a 2400 yr old theory that was DOA. Yeah, greek city states gave us natural law....kind of ironic it's used to hold back homosexuals given you know the "greekness" of it

As to biological law I really love it when this one is thrown up. I mean really how often do religous conservatives talk about biological law. it's just code for religouis beliefs to them and since thye know relion is not the basis to make secular laws or at least enough of them know it we get that red herring biological law but do they believe it? A cursory look at what it actually means makes the claim of it's application ludicrous and from the religous right hypocrisy

This is about not liking the ideas gays are married. it's base prejudice. they have been married in MA for yrs a nd no one has been harmed by it. It is why eventually it will be the law of the land. There will be no justification for it's denial in the face of the complete no impact on marriage. if thetde swings too far though I imagine Romneywill tell us he saved gay marriage

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 6:02:58 AM

Mupainurpleasure

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

There is something ironic aboiut a forum filled with people engaged in non traditional relationships and marriages argueing thet tradition dicates gay marriage be illegal.

I covered that in a post some time ago. One must realize that this lifestyle encompases a multitude of different individual relationship dynamics.

The "50s lifestyle" is a fairly large part of what we are and it meshes quite well with rightwing Christian, ultra conservative anti-gay marriage, etc, etc values.

Bottom line YKIMK (Your Kink Isn't My Kink)

agreed it isnt about that it's about someone who might argue in favor of polyamory talking about a threat to traditonal marriage or if I went and looked I am sure I could find some men and woman argueing against it looking for slaves or calling themselves master

< Message edited by Mupainurpleasure -- 5/10/2012 6:06:39 AM >

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 6:07:30 AM

xBullx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

He was never against civil unions.

I need a bit of help with this particular part.

What is the difference between Civil Unions and Marriage?

I mean I've never been against Civil Unions, but I had always assumed that Marriage was just a religious formality, apparently I'm missing something, could someone elaborate, please.

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 6:29:38 AM

fucktoyprincess

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FR

I actually think the President's move was necessary, and it is not actually clear to me what the impact will be on the election. Many people in the African-American community are very religious and very opposed to gay marriage. So while as a political move it appeals to some of his support base, it doesn't appeal to other parts. But at the end of the day, Obama is clearly placing his hat in the "we are a secular nation" arena. His plea for tolerance and respect, for treating others as you would want to be treated yourself is an important message in an era where people increasingly feel that they have the right to define things only as it conforms to their religious views regardless of the negative impact on others. He is taking a stand on what our vision of America should be, and the issue is not limited to gay marriage. The issue is tolerance.

I think in an era where homosexual teenagers are still harassed at school, the President's message is important simply for the message itself. That hatred and intolerance are not American values. If we want a country to be proud of, then we have to work towards that just as generations in the past worked tirelessly against slavery, against discrimination, etc. As the executive leader of our country, it is important for him to make statements like this even if it is not tied to specific federal policy initiatives. That's not really the point.

The younger demographic in America is overwhelmingly in favor of gay marriage. The conservatives can continue to fight this battle, but even if Obama loses this fall, the issue of gay marriage is ultimately going to be resolved in favor of gay marriage. The conservatives might win the battle but they will never win the war against hatred and oppression. And the harder the conservatives fight (just as they did against slavery, against civil rights, etc.) the nastier they appear to the majority of the country who, at the end of the day, really take more of a "live and let live" attitude.

Since the gay rights movement gained momentum after the Stonewall riots, the conservatives have been facing a losing battle on issues of gay rights. This issue is almost over. Soon we will be reading about it in the history books just like we read about civil rights and marvel at the fact that once in America people of different races couldn't use the same water fountain or couldn't sit where they liked on a bus. And when Americans look back on history, whether Obama wins this fall or not, he will be remembered for having taken a stand for tolerance.

I leave everyone with a quote from Mohandas K. Gandhi:

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, always."

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 5/10/2012 6:31:05 AM >

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 6:39:15 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Master2811

For me the arguments against it is that it is not natural. Pardon me for being a conservative. Especially when it comes to raising children. That might well be against the UN Declaration of Children's Rights. Children have the right to know both biological parents.

I have nothing against gays/lesbians/bisexuals in person. I am not a homofobic person. What they do in their bedrooms is their business. But I will never consider a homosexual relation equal to a heterosexual relation. It is not equal because it can never lead to a normal pregnancy or procreation.

Rachel Maddow addressed this precise statement last night
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#47364243

Ken, for the Maddow piece, are you referring to politicians who are friendly to individual gays but whose policies discriminate against them rather than the "unnatural" aspect?

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 6:43:52 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Given the newness of Master2811's profile, I have to wonder if this is a prankster having a bit of fun with us by parodying the antigay position. I'm having a hard time believing anyone actually espouses these views.

ETA: Then again, I did tangle earlier today with a poster on another site who chided me for hypocrisy in advocating marriage equality for gay folk but not necrophiliacs or those who become overly fond of their houseplants. As Dave Barry would say, I am not making this up.

Not to be the guy that rends anybodies idea of a space time continuum here, but I married my first wife at 6 years old in her parents driveway. I motored over there in my radio flyer, and I had no idea what my peener was for other than to piss and get caught in my zipper.

So............

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 6:44:30 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

What is the difference between Civil Unions and Marriage?

http://www.factcheck.org/what_is_a_civil_union.html

Summary

When politicians say they support civil unions but not marriage for people of the same sex, what do they mean? We find three main differences between civil unions and marriage as it's traditionally viewed:

- The right to federal benefits. States that allow some type of same-sex union are able to grant only state rights. The Defense of Marriage Act passed in 1996 prohibits same-sex couples from receiving federal marriage rights and benefits.

- Portability. Because civil unions are not recognized by all states, such agreements are not always valid when couples cross state lines.

- Terminology. "Marriage" is a term that conveys societal and cultural meaning, important to both gay rights activists and those who don't believe gays should marry.

Read more: http://www.factcheck.org/what_is_a_civil_union.html

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 6:48:29 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

Then again, I did tangle earlier today with a poster on another site who chided me for hypocrisy in advocating marriage equality for gay folk but not necrophiliacs or those who become overly fond of their houseplants. As Dave Barry would say, I am not making this up.

Substitute "toaster" for "houseplant" and voila:

http://imgur.com/Q1nCX

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 5/10/2012 6:50:09 AM >

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 7:06:29 AM

Master2811

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Master2811

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Immigrants will only help temporarily if they also get higher education in western countries, no?

We don't need at least a balance in procreation and dying of people because of farms, but to maintain a civil world in general.

How is it possible that the world had dramatically fewer people than now some five or ten thousand years ago and civilization did not cease, rather it flourished.
Anyone with a three digit iq and a pulse can see that we are overpopulated and most of the poorest of us are dying of malnutrition. Yet you don't seem to think there are enough of us so you don't want gays to marry because they wont make more people to be hungry.
Are you sure you are not homophobic? Your post certainly seem to echo that mindset.

In the past, I did some genealogy in my own family, people got a lot of children, that was needed because a lot of them died in infancy. Some of my ancestors got 20 children and only 8 made it to adults all the way back in the 16th and 17th century Holland. That is why the population was more or less in balance or steadily increasing. In the 20th century we had a population explosion. This was caused by more hygene, healthier food and medical inventions. At this point in history we are seeing a shift in populations. People grow older than in the past and therefore we need at least a balance in procreation and dying of people to maintain a civil world where older people are taking care for by the younger generation (taxes or actual direct care). And therefore promoting homosexual relationships will ultimately lead to disaster.

Please, before you get both feet so far into your mouth you will never get them out acquire a fucking history book that was written for someone beyond the fifth grade.
Your abject ignorance of human history is mind numbing.

Absolutely no need. I had my education, speak four languages. had history and biology as well. For a long time the number of human beings on this planet were more or less in balance or steadlly increasing. A lot of childbirths, wars, famine, harvest failures, pestilences, tuberculosis and the like made sure the planet did not become overpopulated. In the 16th, 17th and 18th century Holland the average age of a human being to die was about 40 to 50 years old. Few became granddads. Things changed dramatically in the 20th century.

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 7:12:07 AM

mnottertail

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Ah Ha!!!! good call dc.

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 7:28:05 AM

Iamsemisweet

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Marriage has traditionally been a creature of state law. That is why each state has their own set of divorce laws. Regulation of marriage was not a power granted to the Feds, so it is reserved to the States.
Yes he did get Congress to pass a law about health care ( he personally didn't pass it). The big argument against that law is it exceeds the Fed's powers. We are still waiting for a decision on that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Thats sort of the point. He has no policy, and there is nothng to celebrate. Obama is proving once again that he's an empty suit.

If he can pass health care, surely he can come up with a bill to introduce to Congress on Gay marriage. He nothing and he is offering nothing...

You don't seem to know much about politics yourself...

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 7:32:52 AM

Iamsemisweet

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Or people like my Love and I. We can't have kids because I am post menopausal, Are we less equal too?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

What about heterosexual couples who are infertile and use IVF or adopt? Are they less equal to breeders?

What about heterosexual couples who chose not to reproduce?

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 7:41:02 AM

Iamsemisweet

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It is actually called the UN Declaration on the Rights of the Child, and nowhere does it say that an adopted child should be able to know both biological parents. It doesn't say that about children who aren't adopted either. In fact, that statement doesn't even make sense.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but making up things to support yours just makes you a lier as well as makes you sound kind of stupid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Master2811

You did not read my statement. One type, the homosexual type will never lead to procreation. The other type, the heterosexual type does sometimes not lead to procreation. When children are adopted according to the UN declaration of Children's Rights, the children should be able to know both biological parents.

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 5/10/2012 7:47:18 AM >

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 7:45:35 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Master2811

For me the arguments against it is that it is not natural. Pardon me for being a conservative. Especially when it comes to raising children. That might well be against the UN Declaration of Children's Rights. Children have the right to know both biological parents.

I have nothing against gays/lesbians/bisexuals in person. I am not a homofobic person. What they do in their bedrooms is their business. But I will never consider a homosexual relation equal to a heterosexual relation. It is not equal because it can never lead to a normal pregnancy or procreation.

Rachel Maddow addressed this precise statement last night
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#47364243

Ken, for the Maddow piece, are you referring to politicians who are friendly to individual gays but whose policies discriminate against them rather than the "unnatural" aspect?

I was refencing the anti gay policy but "I like individual gays" part.

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 7:45:54 AM

Iamsemisweet

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Exactly. How can anyone not think there are enough people in the world already? We will be at 10 billion before we know it, with all the misery that will go along with that. Protecting the future of the species is hardly a reason to oppose gay marriage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Immigrants will only help temporarily if they also get higher education in western countries, no?

We don't need at least a balance in procreation and dying of people because of farms, but to maintain a civil world in general.

How is it possible that the world had dramatically fewer people than now some five or ten thousand years ago and civilization did not cease, rather it flourished.
Anyone with a three digit iq and a pulse can see that we are overpopulated and most of the poorest of us are dying of malnutrition. Yet you don't seem to think there are enough of us so you don't want gays to marry because they wont make more people to be hungry.
Are you sure you are not homophobic? Your post certainly seem to echo that mindset.

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 7:51:40 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
It is actually called the UN Declaration on the Rights of the Child, and nowhere does it say that an adopted child should be able to know both biological parents. It doesn't say that about children who aren't adopted either. In fact, that statement doesn't even make sense.

Neither does citing that in this context in the first place. The religious right and their pet monkey in the white house did their damndest to get the States out of that one, did they not?

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RE: Obama supports Gay Marriage - 5/10/2012 7:53:57 AM

Iamsemisweet

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I am not the one who cited it in support of my position. I don't know where the guy who did cite it is from. In any case, that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't say what he claims it did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
It is actually called the UN Declaration on the Rights of the Child, and nowhere does it say that an adopted child should be able to know both biological parents. It doesn't say that about children who aren't adopted either. In fact, that statement doesn't even make sense.

Neither does citing that in this context in the first place. The religious right and their pet monkey in the white house did their damndest to get the States out of that one, did they not?