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ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

I may be wrong but I suspect fightdirector did not go through a rigourous analysis of the ancient Greek terms to parse his reading of the Biblical passages he relied upon to make his case. If it was not his "own" definition he clearly was pretty facile in selecting and applying the interpretation that suited him best. He can speak for himself if I am wrong. I am not a pro-lifer. But, his argument struck me as simplistic in structure is all.

I "did not go through a rigorous analysis of the ancient Greek terms to parse my reading of the Biblical passages I relied upon to make my case".

I quoted word-for-word an article citing another person's views on the matter in an attempt to stimulate debate. I often do so.

It is entirely possible that the woman who wrote the original article did not go through a rigorous analysis of the ancient Greek terms to parse her reading of the Biblical passages she relied upon to make her case. It is also entirely possible that the woman who wrote the original article did go through a rigorous analysis of the ancient Greek terms to parse her reading of the Biblical passages she relied upon to make her case. That is a legitimate thing to discuss.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well the OP is a great demonstration of typical american illiteracy.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Where does that leave us as individual heretics [atheists] amidst an intolerent religiosity? In jeopardy on a variety of fronts, I think, as we see it playing out now in the political revival of Fundamentalism. Ya think?

Don't overplay the victim card. Fundamentalists regard mainline Christianity as no less heretical, and with less excuse.

K.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Where does that leave us as individual heretics [atheists] amidst an intolerent religiosity?

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Where does that leave us as individual heretics [atheists] amidst an intolerent religiosity?

It leaves us needing to get organized and out of the closet so that our voices can be heard.

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ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

The Holy Bible: Life begins at first breath

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The pro-fetus brigade that is the Republican party is screaming, drooling and rabid about life beginning at conception. They get right in our face, or type at you all in caps, that GOD’S own book, the bible, says life begins at conception. Guess what? It doesn’t.

My good friend, Sheila, is smart, wise, funny and driven to expose lies on the right. She gave me a bit of an internet slap in the face a few days ago when she reminded me of a little passage in Genesis about the breath of life. The passage reads that

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God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being.”

The bible actually has quite a lot to say on the subject of the breath of life. Here are a few more passages that illustrate when life begins.

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Job 33:4-“The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

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Ezekiel 37: 5&6- “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I shall lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

...why does the pro-fetus brigade believe life begins at conception, when their own holy book says quite the opposite?

One thing I have been told is that a fetus breathes while in the womb. Um, no it doesn’t actually. While in the womb, a fetus receives oxygen from the umbilical cord, and the first breath is not taken until birth. You know how the OBGYN makes the newborn cry? That’s usually the first breath. While floating in amniotic fluid, the fetus does not breathe. It’s liquid.

We see billboards all over our county that read “My heart beat 17 days after conception!” and “I can dream!” First, a fetal heartbeat cannot be detected until, at the earliest, 5 ½-6 ½ weeks after conception, and only via ultrasound. Second, “directly measuring the brain activity of a human fetus in the womb is impossible” according to an article at Science Daily.com. Researchers have noted REM-like stages, but to actually measure dreams is not possible.

Huh. The Bible says life begins with “breath,” the first breath is taken AFTER being born, fetal heartbeats are detected much later than the pro-fetus brigade claims and it’s impossible to measure the brain activity of a human fetus in the womb. It seems, at least to this pro-choice mother, that the pro-fetus brigade has absolutely no frigging idea what they’re talking about.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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I would have to say my own personal feeling is that religious beliefs come out of a strong personal need. I think religion provides people with a way to make sense of the world, prevents them from having to deal with too much ambiguity, and placates fear about both existence and the after-life. From this one can draw one's own conclusions about what type of person would need religion vs. those who do not.

One factor that I'm not sure how to work into this is that religion is often hereditary. Many (most?) of us encounter it as a kid, and it shapes our worldview before we realize it's happened. Despite the classic poem/hymn, I'm not sure how many people actually have a religion-or-not moment of decision.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Where does that leave us as individual heretics [atheists] amidst an intolerent religiosity?

It leaves us needing to get organized and out of the closet so that our voices can be heard.

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I, personally, feel it is a losing battle. Those who are religious are so dogmatic that they simply will not leave room for the rest of us. Religions like Christianity and Islam will never settle for anything short of every soul saved. They will kill us and baptize us posthumously if they have to before they will simply allow us to co-exist.

The only hope the world has (and this has truly become a global issue) is if the more moderate face of Christianity and Islam can keep their respective extremists in check. And given what has gone on in America for the last several decades, I'm not holding my breath on that.

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Religions like Christianity and Islam will never settle for anything short of every soul saved. They will kill us and baptize us posthumously if they have to before they will simply allow us to co-exist.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Religions like Christianity and Islam will never settle for anything short of every soul saved. They will kill us and baptize us posthumously if they have to before they will simply allow us to co-exist.

Those are some broad brush strokes, my friend.

Christianity and Islam differ in significant ways, and each religion also has internal divisions. Talleyrand famously described America as a country with 32 religions and one sauce. An Episcopalian in D.C. and a Catholic in Boston and a Presbyterian in South Dakota and a Baptist in Alabama may be more struck by their differences than their similarities. Ditto for a Sunni in Indonesia versus a Shia in Iran.

I'm honestly not aware of Christians' killing nonbelievers in any notable way recently. I can't speak for Islam--which. as a wise friend once pointed out, is a comparatively young religion and may be going through its troubled adolescence,

I don't think anyone but the Mormons baptize the dead. That does strike me as bizarre.

I'm sure nonbelievers encounter theistic hegemony in countless and irksome ways, but "They will kill us..." may be a bit overstated.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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I, personally, feel it is a losing battle. Those who are religious are so dogmatic that they simply will not leave room for the rest of us. Religions like Christianity and Islam will never settle for anything short of every soul saved. They will kill us and baptize us posthumously if they have to before they will simply allow us to co-exist.

The only hope the world has (and this has truly become a global issue) is if the more moderate face of Christianity and Islam can keep their respective extremists in check. And given what has gone on in America for the last several decades, I'm not holding my breath on that.

The picture becomes positively scary when one considers the demographics involved here.

Fundamentalists of all types seem to reproduce at far higher rates than the general population. For example, take a look at Israel, and the rate at which the fundamentalists there have grown over the past few decades. When Israel was founded the haredim were numbered in the hundreds. Today, their numbers are such that many Israelis hold real fears for the future of democracy in Israel . Even worse, there seems to be a tendency for fundamentalists (of any flavour) to align themselves with the most reactionary far right political movements.

So there are serious grounds for concern at the spread of fundamentalist religions EVERYWHERE.