RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny

RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

BamaD -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 6:44:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Meaning, it's a living document, not a set of timeless principles. The only living document part is that it provides a means to change it by admendment not by wanting its meaning to change.

BamaD -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 6:47:54 PM)
In addition to the expliantion given by another poster later admendments outlawed slavery thus demolishing oth you specific and general points quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery The original intent was to treat negro slaves as less than people. They were even counted that way (what was it, 2/5 of a person?). If you viewed current discussions about race by the original intent, we'd have a host of problems. And that's just one obvious point. Things aren't like they were in 1789.

Musicmystery -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 7:13:39 PM)
quote: The founders cearly beleived in the right, some said responsibility, to overthrow tyranical goverment otherwise they would not have been creating a new government. So then....there's no such thing as treason in the U.S.? Yet again, they were focused on a military balance between the States and the Federal government, that the Feds not move in and conquer the states by force. They thought so highly of personal rights that you couldn't even vote for your U.S. Senator until the turn of the 20th century. Your State governor chose them for you. It's. about. State. power. Same way they didn't just let you vote--they created an Electoral College. They did not trust the masses.

Real0ne -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 7:41:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: The founders cearly beleived in the right, some said responsibility, to overthrow tyranical goverment otherwise they would not have been creating a new government. So then....there's no such thing as treason in the U.S.? Yet again, they were focused on a military balance between the States and the Federal government, that the Feds not move in and conquer the states by force. They thought so highly of personal rights that you couldn't even vote for your U.S. Senator until the turn of the 20th century. Your State governor chose them for you. It's. about. State. power. DOMINION! Same way they didn't just let you vote--they created an Electoral College. They did not trust the masses. nothing to do with trust. no different than before with the lords and nobles voting for the vassals.

BamaD -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 9:07:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: The founders cearly beleived in the right, some said responsibility, to overthrow tyranical goverment otherwise they would not have been creating a new government. So then....there's no such thing as treason in the U.S.? Yet again, they were focused on a military balance between the States and the Federal government, that the Feds not move in and conquer the states by force. They thought so highly of personal rights that you couldn't even vote for your U.S. Senator until the turn of the 20th century. Your State governor chose them for you. It's. about. State. power. Same way they didn't just let you vote--they created an Electoral College. They did not trust the masses. Of course there is if you lose . Franklin "We must all hang together or we will most assuredly hang seperatly".

BamaD -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 9:10:28 PM)
You know that the electral college was created not so much from distrust of the people as to keep the small states from being overwhlmed and ignored in favor of the big states.

SternSkipper -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 9:18:58 PM)
quote: Stock up on it, so you have plenty of the 'core elements' available. Cuz you will need crates of the shit to decipher the mystical meaning of the magna carta under the august offices of the legal czar. This legal czsar isn't blue, is he? Cause he just sold me a case of dehydrated water indicating it's 'fresh'. I mean, if that's the guy[8D]

Musicmystery -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 10:00:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You know that the electral college was created not so much from distrust of the people as to keep the small states from being overwhlmed and ignored in favor of the big states. Well gosh, couldn't they just pull out their rifles and shoot it out? That's what the founding fathers intended, right?

mnottertail -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 10:35:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Of course there is if you lose . Franklin "We must all hang together or we will most assuredly hang seperatly". And he is deader than your uncles cousins aunties sisters cat, he wasnt hung nor did he proffer his neck to the noose for his country, and he never got that shit in the constitution, and prolly didnt try.....but that is some hella hyperbole. Some real 'Joe the Plumber type shit there'. Which statement is our lodestone and our guiding star, that or "Ronald Reagan proved that deficits dont matter'... Hardly a goddamn thing in there worth a quarter.

Real0ne -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 10:39:13 PM)
huh? anyone wanna translate that static?

mnottertail -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 10:51:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery The original intent was to treat negro slaves as less than people. They were even counted that way (what was it, 2/5 of a person?). Wrong. Do us all a favor. Please get educated. So, the issue of the 3/5ths in the constitution was really that the south, feeling sorry for not paying wages to 'free men' as the rest of the stated did, decided to artificially up the populations so they could pay more taxes....maybe we should do that again, that is very sweet of them, innit? Jesus, I don't ...I just can't.......I mean do people know you can see what they say here? The controversy revolved around the number of Representatives a State could send to Congress, the Slave States wishing to count their slaves as One each so to increase their population and their Congressional representation. Delegates opposed to slavery generally wished to count only the free inhabitants of each state. Delegates supportive of slavery, on the other hand, generally wanted to count slaves in their actual numbers. Since slaves could not vote, slaveholders would thus have the benefit of increased representation in the House and the Electoral College. The final compromise of counting "all other persons" as only three-fifths of their actual numbers reduced the power of the slave states relative to the original southern proposals, but increased it over the northern position. Congradulations vincentML you got it exactly right, the 3/5s clause was to reduce the power of the slaveholders!!!! Yeah........my nuts are the size of alph centauri. And here is why. Reduce the power of the slaveholders......why not zero? If you have taxation without representation, why scribble shit? If you have representation without taxation why scribble? Why bring up darkies and injuns at all? To this day we are saying illegal aliens do not have amendment rights (though the great fuckin fellas we are we allow them original constitutional rights in a uneven way) the notion is asswipe. The agrarian landholding class, (and even in those days as everybody we would like to have claimed owned the american dream) no prostitute, no tinsmith, no barn mucker, no swineherder was author of nor primordal force. The notion is pure buncombe. Northern states had a man a woman and thirteen children to run the land, and needed it, for many children died, and south of us they had a man a woman and thirteen children and 3/5ths of their (why was the number 3/5ths? why not 2/7ths or PI or plancks constant?) of thier household that went to the house of represtentatives (and there you go with your federalist papers bullshit) why a bicameral legislature, why apportionment?

Real0ne -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 10:54:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Exactly my point. The Founders could not take into account any conditions of the Republic in the FUTURE. So if I founded a country and I walked up on the mountain and came back down and said here is the law fucktards: THOU SHALT NOT MURDER THEY BROTHER, at what point in the future do you expect that will change? The writings and opinions of the Founders are expressions of their time, not ours. That was then; this is Now. The FUTURE is us. So now we cheat steal and murder as a matter of course and its all acceptable right? Why didnt those idiots think of that? The words of the Founders have limited utility unless they are reinterpreted to today's requirements. They are "founded" oin stare decis, law that dates back to the beginning f time that no court has overturned. That's why we have a Court system that interprets the Constitution as a living document. Otherwise, we are doomed to play "groundhog day" forever in the Eighteenth Century. thats bullshit Truth is relative to time and place. Tell that to newton! Shees! And in our time and place we are ONE nation. Not a confederacy of nation-states. Yepster one big happy empire under the el prazzie dante As I said, the matter was settled at Appomattox. The times they are a changing. It is fruitless to debate what was said by Madison, Jefferson, or any of their contemporaries. Fun, but futile because we make our own NOW. actually they were constitutors they didnt found shit. No they understood only to well the distinctions between freedom and slavery. You are a slave today and you do not even know it. Worse because of your ignorance you sold out your children into slavery too,

mnottertail -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 11:13:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You know that the electral college was created not so much from distrust of the people as to keep the small states from being overwhlmed and ignored in favor of the big states. Well gosh, couldn't they just pull out their rifles and shoot it out? That's what the founding fathers intended, right? For Bama the uninformed and Tim the land grant college guy. The house of representatives was so the small states werent run over by the larger states and the senate (nearly the house of lords, or if you will the landed and monied class the lord actons) and the electoral college because anyone who wasnt one of the framers or other patriots was in short a cretin and couldnt be trusted with such affairs on a personl basis). And now to Tim.....Civil War. And while they may have wanted the tyranny of governments unbeholden to the people to be done away with, they had some ignorant notion that people whereever they encountered a common and noble cause that served the common good (home stone or whatever) would set aside such petulance, such pettifoggery, such perfervid and pyrrhic ideology and as one people rise up in concert with noblisse oblige and lese magiste (and a horde of 3/5ths of their darkies in tow) ......and Ate come hot from hell at their side, cry Havoc, and let slip the dogs of war, should gay marriage or sufficiently chafing taxation or anyotherfuckingthing that gave them the ass on any given day confront them..................(yanno and so on like that, its in the constitution and the federalist papers and the...........) So, we are not amused, or did I speak overmuch?

vincentML -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/15/2012 5:46:57 AM)
quote: So if I founded a country and I walked up on the mountain and came back down and said here is the law fucktards: THOU SHALT NOT MURDER THEY BROTHER, at what point in the future do you expect that will change? It already has. The State kills when it is convenient. Even the most 'universal' of principles are conditional. To think not is to be delusional.

vincentML -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/15/2012 5:54:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And yet this thread is about original intent. The founders cearly beleived in the right, some said responsibility, to overthrow tyranical goverment otherwise they would not have been creating a new government. A right supressed is still a right. The Founders are no longer actors in the world of the PRESENT time. Their intent is out of date. Each new generation establishes its own intent to suit its own circumstances by means of either consultation or coersion.

vincentML -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/15/2012 5:59:18 AM)
quote: Congradulations vincentML you got it exactly right, the 3/5s clause was to reduce the power of the slaveholders!!!! And with damn good reason. The history of the following 70 years was dominated by the avarice and machinations for land and ascendency by the Slave Power. Grant and Sherman rightly had to slap their asses down.

Nosathro -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/15/2012 7:33:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD So you think the Constitution was adopted during the McKinnly administration? The anti Federalist agree to adopt the Constitution on the ground that the bill of rights would be added on asap . Constitutionin 1787, Bill of right immeadiately was wrritten and put through the admendment process. And it took them fours years to do it...1791

Nosathro -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/15/2012 7:50:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: If you will note many of your examples were naval operations not army, they are regarded as two seperate orginizations. Marines fall under the Department of the Navy. At that time what was known as the Department of War, did have Army personal, West Point graduates. There was also the Army Corp of Engineers who spent much of there duties maping and surveying. The 3rd Infantry Regiment was active, but their duty was to protect Washington DC and the President. In fact you did not mentioned John Brown's raid on Harper Ferry in 1859 the US forces were led by General Robert E. Lee and General J.E.B.Stuart who led the charge, both Army but the rank and file were Marines. Yes the Congress as by Constituation did call up army, but as also noted they could only do it for 2 years. Would you care to tell us how many times the army has been disbanded? I really would not know. As I have said, and I will say again. During the earily we did not have standing army, no 1st Division, 4th Division etc. Each State had a Militia, citizen soldiers. Members went about their daily life, doing what ever their occupation was, ie farmer, blacksmith etc. When there was an emergency there was a call up, these people left their daily routine, grab their rifle, and answered the call. After the emergency was over, they were disbanded and everyone went back home to continue what ever they were doing. Washington himself after winning the war went back to estate and took up several occupations including distilling whiskey.

Nosathro -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/15/2012 7:54:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You know that the electral college was created not so much from distrust of the people as to keep the small states from being overwhlmed and ignored in favor of the big states. Actually the electral college, was created because those in the government did not think most people were very smart. Members of the electral college are select by the population of the State. That is way in our history, one candiate gets the popular vote the other wins the electral college vote and becomes president.

Nosathro -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/15/2012 8:16:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Meaning, it's a living document, not a set of timeless principles. Well if you want to parse words then maybe. The fact we can amend the constitution would make it a living document. Does that make ya happy ?? The notion that we can interpret the constitution in a way other than the original intent because of some perceived modern circumstance then no, it's not a living document. yeh dont let him shit ya! The law the bill of rights is based in goes back to the beginning of time. The constition is presumed the reservation of that law and they by sworn oath are to protect and acknowledge that law. of course we can wipe our asses with it since they control both sides of the contract not us, and its more akin to exactly the way it was under the king and the magna charta, you could wipe your ass with that too after a while. Maga Charta was a document to control King John, who in his day could open up a "How to be a Tyrant" School. He needed money and did anything to get it. This included but not limited to, false arrest, take their money, blackmail, he even personal killed a 14 year boy who was from a rival family. King John was excuted from the Church and that is when the Barons say a chance. King John could not raise a large enough army to fight the Baron, no money. So King John signed the Maga Charta. This document only applied to the Baron, in which King John had to provide a reason to arrest them, a procedure to seize land etc. However King John managed to get ahold of money, paid off the Pope who reinstated King John and declare the Maga Charta blastformy. King John then took his revenge paid some 1000 danish merceniars and killed everyone associated with Maga Charta, after the the document went by the wayside and has been ignored.

Page: << < prev 5 6 [7] 8 9 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

4.702759E-02