Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


Marini -> Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/24/2012 4:06:09 PM)

Fitting topic for the Memorial Day Weekend!

Should all Americans have the RIGHT to health care?
I did a 1 year search and I have not seen this question asked recently.

Is health care a privilege or a right?
How you feel about this question, will explain your views as far as having a mandated national health system.

FACT: America is one of the FEW, if not the only developed country that does not have some sort of national health care for it's citizens.

This is a question/situation/problem/crisis that HAS to be dealt with soon.
American's are going to have to answer this simple question,
Should health care be a privilege or a right?

If it is a privilege that those that have it, can get it or afford it will be okay.
If people can't get it or afford it, oh well.

If it is a RIGHT, than a reasonable system has to be eventually created and available for American citizens.

I found an excellent, website called ProCon.org that normally seems to give BOTH sides to almost any argument you can think of.

Here is a worthwhile link to about 14 points on both the pro's and con's of Americans having a RIGHT to health care.

http://healthcare.procon.org
I will go ahead and copy and paste it for you, since that is the trend these days.
[;)]
***Based on the Pro's and Con's listed below, my question is: SHOULD health care for Americans be a RIGHT or PRIVILEGE?***


Pro & Con Arguments: "Should all Americans have the right (be entitled) to health care?"
PRO Right to Health Care
All Americans should have a right to health care because the Declaration of Independence states that all men have the unalienable right to "Life," which entails having the health care needed to preserve life.

Health care is a right for all Americans because the Preamble of the US Constitution states its purpose is to "promote the general welfare" of the people. Just as all Americans have the right to an education, they should have the right to health care because they both "promote the general welfare."

Health care is a human right. The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of oneself and one's family, including... medical care."

All Americans should have the right to health care as do citizens of other nations. The United States is one of the few, if not the only, developed nation in the world that does not guarantee health coverage for its citizens. [1]

Ensuring that all Americans have the right to health care will decrease health care costs by allowing people to receive regular and preventive medical care and not wait until they are chronically ill to seek treatment when medical costs are much higher.

Providing all citizens the right to health care is good for economic productivity. When people have access to health care, they live healthier and longer lives, thus allowing them to contribute to society for a longer time. The cost of bad health and shorter life spans of Americans suffering from uninsurance amounts to $65-130 billion annually. [2]

Lacking health care can lead people to suffer from anxiety, depression, sickness, and stress, and other symptoms that affect not only individuals, but families and communities of that individual as well.

Health care costs are unaffordable and bankrupting Americans. In 2007, 62.1% of all US bankruptcies were related to medical expenses and 78% of these bankruptcies were filed by people who had medical insurance. [3][4]

Guaranteeing the right to health care will encourage entrepreneurship, which is good for job creation. Currently people are afraid to start their own business for fear of losing the health insurance provided at their existing job.

Health care should be a right because it will promote equal opportunity by decreasing the number of people who are economically disadvantaged in society due to bad health and medically-related financial trouble.

Health care services are crucial to the functioning of a community, just like trash and water services, and should therefore be guaranteed like these services are to all Americans.

The right to health care should be considered a civil right. People should not be discriminated against for being sick. Americans who are ill should not have to make the choice between financial ruin or paying for the medical treatments they need to stay alive.

Coverage of all Americans would best counter or contain the spreading of epidemics such as the H1N1 flu (swine flu) or smallpox.


CON Right to Health Care
Health care should not be a right because it is inconsistent with the Declaration of Independence, which guarantees the right to "pursue" happiness, not the right to happiness or free medical services.

Health care should not be considered a right because the Preamble of the US Constitution states that its purpose is to "promote" the general welfare, not to provide it.

Health care should not be considered a right because it is not listed in the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution. The Bill of Rights lists people's rights that the government cannot infringe upon, not services or material goods that the government must ensure for the people.

It is the individual's responsibility, not that of the government's, to ensure personal health. Diseases and health problems, such as obesity, cancer, stroke, and diabetes can often be prevented by individuals choosing to live healthier lifestyles.

No one should be entitled to health care because it is a service and a material good that a person must pay for to obtain.

Guaranteeing everyone health care will lead to longer wait-times for patients to receive diagnoses and treatment of illnesses, as is the case in Canada and the UK, potentially denying patients with chronic diseases timely medical care. [5]

Providing a right to health care is socialism and is bad for economic productivity. Socialized medicine is comparable to food stamps, housing subsidies, and welfare--all of which is charity. Distributing charity to society makes people lazy, decreases the incentive for people to strive for excellence, and inhibits productivity.

A right to health care is unadministratable because it is too ambiguous what kind of treatment and services should be guaranteed.

Guaranteeing health care as a right will lead to an increase in demand for health care that will decrease the quality of care because health care professionals will be overstretched.

History has shown that granting health care as a right would lead to greater government deficits. Every time the government intervenes in health care, such as with Medicare and Medicaid, there is a greater redistribution of wealth and greater government spending.

If health care is considered a right, then government bureaucrats will be making health, life, and death decisions that should be up to the patient and doctor to decide.

Allowing health care coverage to be driven by the free market without government intervention increases competition and the incentive for providing higher quality medical technology and service.

Providing health care to everyone is a huge expense and may result in tax increases thereby futher harming the economy and individual pocketbooks.

Guaranteeing health care for all Americans will lead to a problem known as "moral hazard," meaning that people will take riskier actions because they know that if they get hurt, they are guaranteed health care coverage.
Background: "Should all Americans have the right (be entitled) to health care?"

I am looking forward to reading your thoughts and idea's on this eve of the Memorial Day Weekend.
Happy Memorial Day to all my dysfunctional/but entertaining CollarMe family!




Musicmystery -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:10:09 PM)

How is this a "Memorial Day Question"?

Getting better care for our Veterans--that's a Memorial Day Question.




joether -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:15:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
How is this a "Memorial Day Question"?

Getting better care for our Veterans--that's a Memorial Day Question.


I agree. Its another topic that Republicans would like to draw money from to help fun their 'missidle defense system' on the east coast, to protect us from those evil North Koreans....




Marini -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:16:02 PM)

It's a Memorial Day question, because I posted it on the Memorial Day weekend, silly.

Feel free to start the thread for our veterans.

So do you think it is a RIGHT or a privilege?




Musicmystery -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:18:03 PM)

I think we need universal health care under a single payer system. I think time will force us to eventually if we don't willingly.

I don't give a fuck about the semantics that debate will devolve into.




Marini -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:22:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I think we need universal health care under a single payer system. I think time will force us to eventually if we don't willingly.

I don't give a fuck about the semantics that debate will devolve into.


Sigh, I guess that mean's you did not look at the pro's and con's l listed?
[8|]




Musicmystery -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:25:20 PM)

It means I don't care whether you call it a right or a privilege.

I guess that means you didn't see the position I posted after the pros and cons are weighed.




Marini -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:29:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It means I don't care whether you call it a right or a privilege.

I guess that means you didn't see the position I posted after the pros and cons are weighed.


Just re-read your last post, point well made.

I would like to add that not only time, but many factors including inequality and desperation will also be involved.




joether -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:30:44 PM)

quote:

Source: Someone I know in RL

Health Care for Americans is neither a right nor a privilege.
It is a needed Concept!
A concept that trumps the Right and the Privilage!





Since not many possess the intimate knowledge or wisdom of having a serious illness, condition or injury (or all three) without health coverage; they are largely ignorant of the intensive suffering that goes on behind closed doors and off the books. Those with health coverage usually have very little in the way of a knowledge basis of the thoughts and feelings of those without a health coverage system in place. Being a US Citizens of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, I have found Mass Health is quite literally a God send from Heaven! 98.1% of the US Citizens in Mass are covered at a cost of less than 2% of the state's yearly budget (we pay more in snow removal each year...). The ER's are less crowded since citizens can see actual doctors for regular health checks, and preventive care. If a person can not get a treatment through Mass Health that their doctor believes would help; they can often visit their district Representative to help get an exception or even modify the rules if more citizens across the state are in the same condition/state. The system is not without its problems or issues. But those things are fixable with time, thought and wisdom. Overall it really is a good system that works for the state.

The states with the worst health coverage for its citizens would benefit the most from a concept like Mass Health being introduced into their state's legal and health system. Unfortunately, these same states are Republican strongholds whom are as anti-'health coverage for US Citizens' as it gets!




Marini -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:39:03 PM)

Nice post joether.

I feel that health care should be a right for American citizens.

What I find interesting, is even those that feel it is NOT a right, will almost always quickly change their mind, if THEY or someone close to them does not have insurance, and is getting crappy/ very limited and/or marginal health care.

I just don't see someone AGAINST national health care, fighting cancer {or any other serious medical issue}, and feeling that it is "okay" not to get good/proper treatment, because they/or a loved one don't have insurance or thousands/millions to pay for good/proper treatment.



HA!




erieangel -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:57:12 PM)

I think health care is a RIGHT.

I don't agree with the con arguments--I think most of them are excuses.

Socialized services wouldn't make them "free". And what does health care have to do with the pursuit of happiness?

I think the argument of "promoting the general welfare" vs. providing health care is disingenuous.

Is there any difference between government bureaucrats and insurance bureaucrats making health, life and death decisions that should be left up to the patient and the doctor?

I do not believe in the "moral hazard" or the economic doomsday scenarios of the con-side. Similar arguments were given before Medicare was established and none of it came to pass.

One quick note: The mental health system has been public funded almost from its founding (with a few exceptions of people paying out of pocket to see a psychiatrist). For the most part, that public funded mental health system has worked with few falling through the cracks over the years--many more have fallen through the cracks since the closing of the state hospital system nationwide, however, along with constant funding cuts for the community based services. Within this system we have had a medical model, an out-come based model and a recovery-based model. In 1999, Congress, in their infinite wisdom, decided it would be best to contract with private insurance companies to administer the public funds (and take a percentage of the public funds as payment), giving us a mix of the three models . The system has done pretty well combining the three models. I have been in this system off and on since I was 15 years old as a patient and am now almost 50 and for the past 4 years I have also been a service provider.

While I'm sure the public mental health system was originally set up to set the mentally aside, get them out of sight and out of mind of society, since the closing of the state hospital system, their care has become a right. If the care of the mentally ill is a right, why is general health care not also a right?






epiphiny43 -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 4:59:52 PM)

The argument about the UK system is not current nor honest. Recent studies show the health of the UK citizens and how they are serviced by the national health service is better than the US by EVERY metric considered. America is the best system if you can afford almost unlimited expense. It underperforms for the rest of the citizens seriously. Infant and maternal mortality are twice that of any other industrialized country. Italy! Spain, Greece! Rational systems invest in the most productive place, the start of life, with prenatal care. The US abandons poor families and overloads the system with irrational extreme measures for hopeless cases at the end of life. Which comes early for all too many lacking correct preventative care and advice.
My best friend is an eye surgeon who feels the US system is so dysfunctional it has no future and will collapse shortly. Which he looks forward to, a complete rebuild from the bottom up is necessary. Patches that keep all the special interests now exploiting the system in place (A necessity for any program to get through Congress) can't fix any part of the problem. Total reform of the US system of Tort Law is probably a necessary first step. Current medical liability law and practices have to be close to if not the worst system possible for disciplining medical malpractice and protecting and compensating injured patients.
Most analyses by competent unbiases economists predict a substantially cheaper system if rationalized. One of the biggest burdens for struggling small business is unsupportable group health care costs. Our local HMSA just announce a new raise in small business premiums. The system probably fails economically without the balancing income as costs at the service end keep escalating. There are no plans or concepts in the pipeline to reverse either trend with the current malpractice insurance regime and welfare delivery costs mandated by the State and supported by the insurance payers. We just lost to bankruptcy one of the group hospital companies serving Oahu. A number of medical specialties are graduating No new American doctors as insurance fees eat half or more of practice income. And so it goes.




Marini -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 5:10:46 PM)

epiphiny, I appreciate your thoughts and comments, but over all I enjoy this website.
They seem to state the pro's and con's that are often the most constantly stated on the issues.

I agree with you, but I do see similar comments about the UK system, fair or unfair.

So, though it may or may not be accurate,these sort of comments/views, are stated often, and they belong with the con's that most people will use.

I agree with your friend the eye surgeon, the US health care system is a disgrace, and will be reformed one way or another.

Thanks for posting epiphiny, would enjoy hearing more from you.




epiphiny43 -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 5:33:49 PM)

False, misleading or deliberately 'disingenuous' arguments are the most important to knock down. The complaints about the UK NHS ignore that the UK citizens are healthier and get better short term and long term care than almost all Americans. Using that system to indict a universal national health service is as dishonest as it gets, once the facts are known. So spreading the facts matters.
I'm not that thrilled by the arguments on either side of the procon site. Simple compassion and actual economics dictate universal care. Everything else is More expensive and mostly dysfunctional as well. What we have is doomed by geometric annual cost increases. The argument Obama failed to make convincingly to opponents of a single payer option. Or, irrelevant to vested interests sucking blood from the system. To a math illiterate electorate, the data about this dynamic is useless! But the result is as effective as any disaster can be.
No interconnected technological society is likely to be stable or in any way egalitarian without health secure citizens, nor competitive with other nations over the long run. We are inventing the future of digital man on a unified planet. It's easy to get it all wrong if we protect vested interests and parasitical bureaucracies. The task may defeat the human species as we know it. Sure looks like it from here.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100723112709.htm
For one study. The NHS has manifold problems. Delivering better health care than the US system for substantially less cost per citizen isn't one of them.




Marini -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 6:01:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

False, misleading or deliberately 'disingenuous' arguments are the most important to knock down.

I AGREE with you, but they will continue to be made, and will have to continue to be disputed.
Especially, whenever people are engaging in a debate.


The complaints about the UK NHS ignore that the UK citizens are healthier and get better short term and long term care than almost all Americans. Using that system to indict a universal national health service is as dishonest as it gets, once the facts are known. So spreading the facts matters.

Thank you, I appreciate you doing so, but I do like presenting both sides, which is what I did here.

I'm not that thrilled by the arguments on either side of the procon site. Simple compassion and actual economics dictate universal care.

THIS, I need to hear more people stating that people mayNOT be as compassionate as they "try" to pretend to be.

Many people are NOT compassionate and do not feel like they are their brother's keeper, like scrooge said, "Let them die and decrease the surplus population."
Many people do feel this way, now will they usually say it?
Fake "compassion" no real humanity and pretending to care, and pretending to want the "best" for everyone is pc, and bullshit, yet people buy it.
Eventually hard decisions are going to have to be made, and it's just matter of time, before enough people rise up, and say, "We are not going to take "this" anymore and are willing to do whatever it takes."

Everything else is More expensive and mostly dysfunctional as well. What we have is doomed by geometric annual cost increases. The argument Obama failed to make convincingly to opponents of a single payer option.

I totally agree,, President Obama attempted to "appease" instead of just saying, we NEED a single payer system period!

Or, irrelevant to vested interests sucking blood from the system. To a math illiterate electorate, the data about this dynamic is useless! But the result is as effective as any disaster can be.
No interconnected technological society is likely to be stable or in any way egalitarian without health secure citizens, nor competitive with other nations over the long run. We are inventing the future of digital man on a unified planet. It's easy to get it all wrong if we protect vested interests and parasitical bureaucracies. The task may defeat the human species as we know it. Sure looks like it from here.

Or rise the hell up matey, the revolution will be televised.



Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments, I take it you feel that health care is a RIGHT!!!
[;)]




Marini -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 6:46:09 PM)

According to the latest WHO health care ratings I could find, America rates #37!
World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems 2011.
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
51 Dominican Republic
52 Tunisia
53 Jamaica
54 Venezuela
55 Albania
56 Seychelles
57 Paraguay
58 South Korea
59 Senegal
60 Philippines
61 Mexico
62 Slovakia
63 Egypt
64 Kazakhstan
The good news at #37 we are ahead of countries like: Cuba, South Korea, Croatia, Thailand, Senegal, Albania, Slovenia and Mexico.
[sm=banana.gif]




Lucylastic -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 7:16:57 PM)

I can state without a shadow of a doubt and fear of contradiction that I believe healthcare is a human right and agree with MM that single payer is the only way to get universal coverage.
Im pretty passionate about it, BECAUSE im an outsider looking in with way to many friends who are on the losing side of the argument, and suffer for it in ways that make my brain hiss.
Having worked and lived in two "socialised countries", I wont deny there are problems, mostly with mismanagement( how unusual) Not enough frontline workers or allocation of funds to patient needs( again too much management) But I wouldnt trade it for a life of comfort in the US for anything.
The idea that you are only allowed to have good healthcare, if you can afford it is abyssmal and sociopathic.
My 2 cents




Winterapple -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 8:03:17 PM)

FR
I support universal health care with the single payer system.
I believe it is the practical thing to do and the honorable thing.
I believe it is inevitable.
I think arguments against it are horseshit.
The high cost of health care in the US demonstrates
the failure of allowing the private sector to much influence
in the healthcare system.
I believe the model the US will most likely adopt is the Swiss one.
The Swiss were the last Europeans to have universal
healthcare.




Marini -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/24/2012 8:19:05 PM)

Interesting, everyone "so far" feels that health care is a right.

Everyone also seems to feel that the single payer system is the way to go.

Something is going to have to be done regarding the health care system in the US.

How long is it going to take?
Why aren't more people like us, being heard?




Fellow -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/24/2012 8:47:54 PM)

Health care certainly is a right. In case you are sick, preventing you to cure yourself would be a criminal offense. I think, the discussion should be one level up, more specific.  It comes down how nation's resources are allocated. To say the government does not care about public health would be a lie. The US government spends per capita almost equal amount of public funds on health care compared to the other industrial nations.  The problem is idiocracy. Ho to cure this, I am not sure. Total recall and replacement instead of endless debates designed to protect status quo? 




Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875