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Since you feel compelled to post not 1 but 2 nasty posts, I am compelled to retort.
I started not to even bother responding to this rant, because I normally walk about from online rants.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I don't really think, "right vs. privilege," is the correct frame for the discussion. Americans have an unquestioned right to travel, but that doesn't mean the government has to buy everyone a Chevy Volt, or even must allow them to board an airplane.

But the Commerce clause allows Congress to allocate funds to build roads and provide air traffic control to facilitate that travel.

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Is healthcare an entitlement in the Constitution that we just hadn't noticed was in there, all this time? I don't think so.

Agree. there are probably no individual entitlements in the Constitution except in the Bill of Rights. However, the General Welfare clause and the Commerce clause have been held to give Congress the power to determine what is in the general welfare of the Nation and tax/spend to advance that Welfare. [not individual welfare] We shall soon see how the Robert's Court rules. Will it upset or modify those precedents?

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Is the answer to our healthcare problems, putting government in charge of the system? If so, then what's the best way to do it?

Two excellent questions, Rich. I wonder how the answers will work out.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
the state claims it has the "right" to collect taxes.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

fr

without reading through all the bullshit parlor talk that these types of threads attract, lets start from the top;


a RIGHT is:_____________________

a PRIVILEGE is: ____________________

I have yet seen anyone accurately state the difference since it has been misused since beginning of time.

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As Raiikun says, Health care is provided by the time and labor of others;

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so calling health care a "right" means declaring everyone has the right to the time and labor of others.

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Just how much time and labor is, as their due, one entitled to lay claim to of another?

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Is it fixed and determinate? If not, then as my example, made well earlier in this thread, would allow one to pick the pocket of one's neighbor to whatever degree one decides, being vague and indeterminate.

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ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Why is this all so difficult?

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

fr

without reading through all the bullshit parlor talk that these types of threads attract, lets start from the top;


a RIGHT is:_____________________

a PRIVILEGE is: ____________________

I have yet seen anyone accurately state the difference since it has been misused since beginning of time.

You might find this of interest. I quote the part I find applicable within the context of what is being discussed in this thread -

3. It is that quality in a person by which he can do certain actions, or possess certain things which belong to him by virtue of some title. In this sense, we use it when we say that a man has a right to his estate or a right to defend himself.

In this latter sense alone, will this word be here considered. Right is the correlative of duty, for, wherever one has a right due to him, some other must owe him a duty.

Rights are perfect and imperfect. When the things which we have a right to possess or the actions we have a right to do, are or may be fixed and determinate, the right is a perfect one; but when the thing or the actions are vague and indeterminate, the right is an imperfect one. If a man demand his property, which is withheld from him, the right that supports his demand is a perfect one; because the thing demanded is, or may be fixed and determinate.

But if a poor man ask relief from those from whom he has reason to expect it, the right, which supports his petition, is an imperfect one; because the relief which he expects, is a vague indeterminate, thing.

As Raiikun says, Health care is provided by the time and labor of others; so calling health care a "right" means declaring everyone has the right to the time and labor of others.

Just how much time and labor is, as their due, one entitled to lay claim to of another? Is it fixed and determinate? If not, then as my example, made well earlier in this thread, would allow one to pick the pocket of one's neighbor to whatever degree one decides, being vague and indeterminate.

Privilege is easy, a such easily falls within the scope of being granted license. For instance, ask the owner of the property if you may drink from his well. You'd be asking for his permission, the privilege of use of his property. If one has a right to its use one need not gain permission to its use.

As I posted earlier, License is permission by a competent authority to do that which would otherwise be illegal, a trespass, or a tort.

The whole "healthcare is a right" is a red herring.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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As Raiikun says, Health care is provided by the time and labor of others;

False prmise.

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so calling health care a "right" means declaring everyone has the right to the time and labor of others.

Equals false conclusion.

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Just how much time and labor is, as their due, one entitled to lay claim to of another?

False premise.

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Is it fixed and determinate? If not, then as my example, made well earlier in this thread, would allow one to pick the pocket of one's neighbor to whatever degree one decides, being vague and indeterminate.

False conclusion.

Are you saying that you should not have to pay any taxes?

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As Raiikun says, Health care is provided by the time and labor of others; so calling health care a "right" means declaring everyone has the right to the time and labor of others.

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Since not everybody is going to need to utilize massive trauma care, or develop a critically expensive long-term condition, or need cancer treatment, or live long enough to need all the expensive second-to-last breaths modern medicine can provide, those are what we consider individual health issues, best met privately. That keeps competition and innovation alive and healthy in the industry, and allows insurance to actually be insurance.

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Terminal/geriatric care is going to be a biggie. Every morning, thousands of new baby boomers start seeing their mortality in the mirror, and some of them simply aren't going to have that. A booming market in staving off death will rise to serve them, and who knows? We might get some great new medicine out of it. On the other hand, if this falls under government oversight and control, questions about whether we can afford to put an 87 year old in an ICU bed for three days every couple of months, become matter of government policy. I don't like that. I don't think a lot of other people would like that either.

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Since not everybody is going to need to utilize massive trauma care, or develop a critically expensive long-term condition, or need cancer treatment, or live long enough to need all the expensive second-to-last breaths modern medicine can provide, those are what we consider individual health issues, best met privately. That keeps competition and innovation alive and healthy in the industry, and allows insurance to actually be insurance.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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As Raiikun says, Health care is provided by the time and labor of others; so calling health care a "right" means declaring everyone has the right to the time and labor of others.

We could say the same of justice.

Very silly point.

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ORIGINAL: Yachtie

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
the state claims it has the "right" to collect taxes.

Another misuse of the word, by the state, made by people who do not know better. The state has powers, not rights. Even the wording of the US Constitution shows government has power and not rights; i.e. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes ... You'll not find anywhere in the US Constitution, nor any state Constitution I believe, the word "right" assigned to government.

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Say we view the medical needs people will encounter through their lives as falling broadly (and vastly simplified, I know) into four categories; routine, and geriatric/terminal for everybody, and catastrophic, chronic/disabling, for some. If we included provisions for all the routine care for all citizens, (say vaccinations, check-ups, boo-boos bad enough to have someone drive you to the ER, but not require an ambulance and trauma center) in our vision of public health, and have a public infrastructure to address them, I think we could go a very long way into resolving the problem. Since every one of us is going to die, as well, let's consider hospice care part of public health as well. Whether we do all that by means of subsidized insurance, operational grants to local administering authorities, or direct operation of a nationalized system of free clinics and urgent cares can be another discussion. One way or another, it will require a new acronym, next to a new deduction, on my paystub. I can live with that, especially if my insurance contribution is going down.

Since not everybody is going to need to utilize massive trauma care, or develop a critically expensive long-term condition, or need cancer treatment, or live long enough to need all the expensive second-to-last breaths modern medicine can provide, those are what we consider individual health issues, best met privately. That keeps competition and innovation alive and healthy in the industry, and allows insurance to actually be insurance.

Terminal/geriatric care is going to be a biggie. Every morning, thousands of new baby boomers start seeing their mortality in the mirror, and some of them simply aren't going to have that. A booming market in staving off death will rise to serve them, and who knows? We might get some great new medicine out of it. On the other hand, if this falls under government oversight and control, questions about whether we can afford to put an 87 year old in an ICU bed for three days every couple of months, become matter of government policy. I don't like that. I don't think a lot of other people would like that either.

It's just a thought, but since we never seem to get anywhere talking about it through the present filters, why not try a new angle of approach?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Maybe we should consider it a moral right that trumps a lack of Constitutional right. Sort of like the humane right to food, clothing, and shelter.

Might also throw in the right to safety and the right to get an education.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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As Raiikun says, Health care is provided by the time and labor of others; so calling health care a "right" means declaring everyone has the right to the time and labor of others.

We could say the same of justice.

Very silly point.

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Maybe we should consider it a moral right that trumps a lack of Constitutional right. Sort of like the humane right to food, clothing, and shelter.

Might also throw in the right to safety and the right to get an education.