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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/26/2012 11:35:54 PM   
ResidentSadist


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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		I really didn't want to write a paper about this so I only mentioned my first personal exposure to it with the leathermen in the 70s in my original reply. However, the Gor book speculations are killing me . . . lets just consider that the first Gor book was in 1966. The modern American and European BDSM culture usage of slave speak (illeism) predates that by far more than a dozen years. The roots of it reach back for ages.

If you look at the BDSM we know, the culture we inherited from the leathermen who pioneered it, you will find that the illeism they used originated in the 1940s military. Military Illeism like "Sir, this soldier stands ready, sir" and the leathermen usage of it and uniforms like caps and vests.

However, honorific illeism in slavery goes back ages and can be found in the earliest literature about slavery. Does this phrase sound familiar?

"your humble servant awaits your orders"

That doesn't have anything to do with BDSM but has everything to do with slavery and/or servitude. If you're gonna' hang credit for the western world's BDSM culture usage of third person illeism on a fictional series of books, blame the Charlie Chan books not Gor. Charlie Chan movies started in the 30s. Those manuscripts use "first son", "second son" and "your humble servant awaits your orders". All which have been ingrained in oriental culture and perspective for ages. If you think blaming Charlie Chan is stretch, which it is, blame it on the Orient. Consider the western world's BDSM culture interest in bondage and how it exposed us to oriental philosophies and perspectives while studying shibari disciplines. Although I do not think we were as influenced by it as much as the oriental culture, Middle Eastern harem politics had the the kadin, the "first girl" to bear the "first son".

All these cultural influences go into the BDSM melting pot and now you can see the concept of how the leathermen's military rank protocols merged with other cultural perspectives and you got first boys, second boys, first girls, alpha slaves and they speak of them selves in third person. No matter how you look at it, John Norman's Gor books don't have a damn thing to do with the origins of illeism in modern BDSM because its first usage and origins predate him.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 5/26/2012 11:48:17 PM >

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/27/2012 12:34:50 AM   
MalcolmNathaniel


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Status: offline 		This is an aside:

Before even reading the words of your post I noticed the picture.

Even though I haven't logged in in several months the picture, which I had never seen before, told me that it was Poise posting.

You not only have very good taste in the pictures you choose for your avatar, it is iconic (no pun intended.)

That is a singular talent.

< Message edited by MalcolmNathaniel -- 5/27/2012 12:35:26 AM >

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/27/2012 12:57:43 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I remember when I first got online, it was well after my intro to WIITWD. O/one O/of M/my F/first T/thoughts W/was W/what T/the F/fuck I/is I/it W/with T/the S/slashy S/speak ?/?

I was duly informed that WEAL and TWUE Doms and subs always use it.

I was thinking "Yeah, whatever, Your sub is your right hand and Mine is going to come in and kneel sweetly and blow me as soon as the dishes are done."


It annoys the hell out of me, so difficult to read and such a butchering of language and grammar...

Though I do think it's a bit older than the trashy novels, Kings referring to themselves in the 3rd person and loyal subjects prostrating themselves, I guess it got used by people into BDSM - hey, BBC America is running the Tudors again - have a look at it and most of the guys address Hank use slave talk, just because they hope to keep their heads...

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/27/2012 9:47:29 AM   
delilahdelight


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Wherever the origins, it is an adequate example of "to each his own."

Speaking of examples:
quote:

"everything to do with slavery and/or servitude"

An example of the only type "slashy speak" that should be allowed.


quote:

"It's like Tony Robbins for perverts."

An example of an unexpected laugh-out-loud.

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/27/2012 10:33:23 AM   
LittleMsMary


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Status: offline 		As for the origins of "slash speak" and all that? I'll vote hell, because it gives me a massive headache.

To each their own of course....but seriously....knock it off.

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/27/2012 1:10:59 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyThoughts

Speaking in the 3rd person, is /was(?) a drill sergeant trick (Westpoint etc), which in turn is inherited from certain UK "Public Schools" (private). That school tradition goes back centuries to fagging and caning non-ironically.




Ever done some history and read excerpts from speeches and petitions or etiquette on how a ruler was to be addressed? Plural majestix and all that stuff...

I know history for most Americans tends to be limited to 200 years, but trust me, there was a lot of that before...

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/27/2012 1:15:43 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Naturally, slave speak comes from slaves (duh), I meant specifically within the context of BDSM.

So this is great info. Thanks.


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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/27/2012 1:16:44 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

I really didn't want to write a paper about this


I'm glad you did, it was very helpful.

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/27/2012 1:23:07 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		"Your humble servant awaits your orders, My Lord." Is an example of third person differential speech, but you have to admit, it's a classy example and easily understand even in this day and age.

The example Lance referenced in his thread (from the email he received) was sheer butchery of the language, predominantly incomprehensible, and akin to the sound of fingernails on a blackboard (to me).

If anyone is really interested in having their s-type speak this way, I recommend lots of historical fiction. It *can* sound very elegant, when done properly.





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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/28/2012 2:46:47 AM   
dregsz


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Status: offline 		I find this thread very entertaining.
I will point out that in the Gor novels, (action adventure romance novels) all names, including slave names are capitalized and book Gor and real time Gor differ immensely.
I could write more but I doubt anyone cares

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/28/2012 3:01:10 AM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		Actually instead of historical fiction, I would recommend REAL history, most courts had books written about proper etiquette (especially the French and Spanish who had elaborate etiquette - also the Catholic church) and even today you can find examples, pretty anachronistic but still used. Slave speak didn't really exist, in the colonies they spoke some broken version of English, in Europe the Romans had saves and they didn't talk funny if you believe the historic notes (mainly written by educated slaves), a lot of tribes all over the globe had slaves and they didn't speak funny....

Basically what people consider slave speak is some bastardized version of old court etiquette

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/28/2012 6:33:26 AM   
HexxaTetraDom


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So is the real question "where does linguistic butchery and incomprehensible writing come from?"

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/28/2012 7:13:14 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Not quite but close. "where does linguistic butchery and incomprehensible writing come from under the guise of slave speak?"

A person does not have to have adopted the role of slave to butcher the language or write incomprehensibly, although it *does* help.

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/28/2012 9:53:46 AM   
IrishMist


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Status: offline 		It's my understanding that the slashy speech came about with internet chat rooms. Capitalizing certain letters, using slashes to distinguish between male, female, slave, master, etc.



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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/28/2012 10:00:34 AM   
sexyred1


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Status: offline 		I don't care where it originated, I just wish it would stop.

I specifically wish that men who speak that way would stop writing me, since all I feel like doing when someone writes me and says he is looking for a no limits slave and "it" will do what he wants with "it", is to kick him in the balls for having no reading comprehension when writing a woman like me, who would never speak in the third person or slash speak.

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/28/2012 10:16:17 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

I specifically wish that men who speak that way would stop writing me, since all I feel like doing when someone writes me and says he is looking for a no limits slave and "it" will do what he wants with "it", is to kick him in the balls for having no reading comprehension when writing a woman like me, who would never speak in the third person or slash speak

But that's not 'slashy speak'. That's nothing more than someone who is immersed in fantasy, thinking that the person they are writing to is just as immersed as they are.

The demeaning talk, like what you are using as an example here...that, does not bother me, nor does being referred to as a slave, or a girl...or others referring to themselves as such...that is not so much annoying to me.

however, when I see someone typing with all the slashes...that does become annoying.

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/28/2012 10:28:06 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

It's my understanding that the slashy speech came about with internet chat rooms. Capitalizing certain letters, using slashes to distinguish between male, female, slave, master, etc.




Yep, that and the submissives not capitalizing their names is an internet affectation.

Honestly, the third person speak, slashes and lower case letters prove nothing. It's easy to type......it's a lot harder to actually be and do...actions speak louder than words.


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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/28/2012 10:59:43 AM   
LanceHughes


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Status: offline 		Yep. Internet "affectation" AND "affliction."

When I challenge "them that do," I invariably get back, "But, but, Sir. 'Twue' Masters require it."  And there you have it.






Edited for typo

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 5/28/2012 11:01:49 AM >

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/28/2012 5:52:34 PM   
AngelOfSilence


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quote:

With blithering idiots. Where else?
I'm going with this.

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RE: Where did slave speak originate? - 5/29/2012 12:21:57 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


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Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline 		I'm going to go against the flow here and say that I don't mind "slavespeak." I actually think it's kind of cute in some women.

The slash text drives me crazy though. In English for a generic term for groups of mixed sex you use the male word. Reading "We are looking for someone to join our group. S/He should be blah,blah blah..." is annoying. That you can find in vanilla publications. Add in the lower case for sub/Dominant and you get "S/H/s/he should be..." But then there is no set order for such wording so you have to waste precious milliseconds deciphering it. Something littered with such atrocities takes much longer to read.

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