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-=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where's th... - 6/6/2012 2:12:24 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		This peek into my personal perspectives was inspired by Pyramus in his The wonderful world of 'ownership' thread. He asked, "I energize on the feeling of 'ownership' of another human being. Do you?." What I wrote seemed more suited for a thread about morals than ownership. So here its is, have at it. Please disagree, confirm, expand, qualify and comment as you wish. This is *my* perspective which will probably be different than many of your perspectives, inflame some of you and offend at least one of you. So spit it out. Tell us what you think about my disregard for morals, my slant on expressing love and/or how my perspectives and values in M/s vary from yours.



It is my hope that you can see through the graphic extremes of my examples to the core, the meanings behind the actions. To some, bestiality is passé and only mildly kinky. To other’s helping family hide a dead body is immoral no matter how much they love someone. This is the very reason for these examples, to drive the point home and test the precepts at the boundaries of thought, not the median. Please don’t get hung up on the acts themselves, it's meanings behind the acts that is the point of this OP.

-=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where's the love?=-

Ownership and the display of that ownership is a strong motivator and point of bonding for me in relationships.

I want the intense responsibility of ownership. I want to own her, take really good care of her so she can "feel" my love in a way that it matters to her. I want to fulfill her emotional needs and her passionate fantasies. I toss out my morality and judgmental perspectives, go that extra mile and then some. That level of commitment in ownership and being owned runs both ways. I expect her to go that extra mile for me too.

It's two fold for me. It's romantic because of the level of commitment, when we violate or reconstruct our morals to please our partner, to give back something meaningful that can really be felt, well, that is heart warming. Sacrifice is tangible proof of the bond.

Many opponents of M/s and fans of negotiating limits will claim that if someone loves you, they won’t demand sacrifice. Bullshit. Sacrifice is doing something you don’t want to. Do you really want to wash clothes, pay the bills etc? But you “suffer” those things to have clean clothes and roof over your head. If you will sacrifice for a landlord, why in the name of morals would you want to negotiate your own level of comfort with your life partner to deny them pleasure, passion, kink or love in a way they can feel it? Morals aren't physical. It's not a sensitivity to something. Morals are a voluntary choice and it is absolutely painless to change them. Unlike physical sensitivities that take time to recondition and modify thresholds, morals can change instantly, the moment you open your mind to a new perspective.

I am a very jaded old fuck. It takes an extreme to find something that is is really kinky, just for the sake of kink itself. So when she is doing it with a shemale midget nun and a donkey, I get that she is doing it because she loves me and wants me to feel something that has some real kink to it, despite her level of comfort with nuns, donkeys or midgets . . . she wants to be my sexual fantasy too. Just like when I shared her sexually, shared my personal property so that she could live her dark fantasy of having a cock in every hole at once.

The display of ownership and being owned is where a lot of passion lies for me. Not displaying in public, although I am human and guilty of ego. My trophy on leash is a nice ego boost. But that isn’t the root of the display to me. It is the display, the proof, the sacrifice you show each other. And you know what, if she physically likes some type of BDSM thing . . . like spankings instead of bullwhips, fine. It's not the leather itself that is the important or the sexy part for me. It's her mind, that is the sex organ, the root of emotion, passion, love and the seat of our bond. So it is never a conflict if she hates bullwhips and I will feel deprived if I don’t whip her with one every hour. At a sadistic apex, sometime, somewhere, I will use a bullwhip just for the torture aspect and her extra sacrifice will be appreciated. But I'm not gonna' pull one out every morning and whip her with it when I will be just as happy spanking her as an expression and statement of our bond. I like all that stuff. I can wait to educate her tastes slowly on the things she can't see the passion in yet. With time, you can condition someone to like almost anything. Letting them see and feel your passion for it, your perspective is a real good start because passion is contagious. Effectively sharing your passion for it so they see it through your eyes, at the very least, will excite them because even if they don't learn to like the way it tastes or feels, because they now know exactly how much it really turns you on.

My family loves me unconditionally. They don't have to agree or approve of my morals or values. But they will help me do anything that doesn't violate the law of self survival if I asked. In an extreme example that involves violating the law; If my brother called and needed help to bury the body, my answer would not depend on whether it was self defense, whether I morally approved of his killing them or whether burying bodies was in my comfort zone. It would depend on his plan and whether I thought helping would jeopardize my survival and freedom. I don’t have the right to question why he asked, to judge whether he should have asked someone else. My brother is asking me what I will give him, what I will sacrifice for him. My answer should be founded on the same, no other factors count. I won’t think he doesn’t respect my limits by asking. I will think he trusts me to share this, expose himself and make himself vulnerable to me like that.

This example is a far stretch from the trust required to have a menege a tois with your partner when that is out of your comfort zone. But the logic behind it, the choices to go out of your comfort zone for family, for someone you love is the same. When confessing a dark desire or need, you become vulnerable, subject to judgment by someone you care about and respect . . . even if it doesn't require an illegal act or shovel to fulfill their request.

For me, ownership parallels many family value dynamics. My girl (slave, partner, property) is my family. She needs to be able to put up the same type of unconditional family love. For me, negotiating, imposing your morals, your level of comfort by limiting what you will do with your partner just doesn't scream "I love you unconditionally and will prove it".

Should you limit your life because you have different morals? M/s, TPE or ownership for me isn’t role play, it’s a role definition, a relationship style. It isn’t something you do with someone you don’t trust completely. For others, it is a form of exciting role play and allows partners to delve into areas they don’t tread on daily.

I personally agree with the Marquee de Sade and think that my morals are founded in nothing more valid than dumb luck and geographical location. Morals are voluntary. I will restructure my morals to fulfill your fantasies if I care about your fulfillment.

So with the examples above in mind and in answer to the opponents iconic question, “would you break the law if your owner or property asked you to” . . . in my house, the answer should be “if it pleases you, which end of the midget or donkey did you want me at Sir?” And you should know and trust that except on a rare occasion, I wouldn’t tell you to until after I had taught you to see sex with a midget and donkey as a kinky and exciting fantasy. I want us both to enjoy our M/s relationship.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 6/6/2012 2:58:04 PM >

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 6:48:28 PM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
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Status: offline 		I cannot find a single thing to disagree with in your post. I think however it is very key that you pointed out that self-preservation/survival is the only inborn limit, the one that is instinctual and not moral. I think it is also healthy, and that many other 'limits' ARE based on that, but become misconstrued. A lot of times people place limits to protect themselves because they think no one else will protect them.

I have never been in a TPE, relationship, because that bond of trust has never been deep enough with any BDSM partners I've had.

Would I bury a body for my family? Sure, even for my best friends. That example is what tells me I have never had the level of trust with my relationship partners, as I have with certain friends and family members. It's why TPE has never been an option for me. I won't say it was a lack of love, but there was never the foundation of trust needed for it.

I have had partners I trusted enough to remove limits, not all, but many, and looking back, the only reason I removed those limits, is because I knew I didn't need them with that person. I didn't need to protect myself on those levels because I knew they would protect me. But trusting comes in stages not all at once.


I often joke that I don't really have morals, because I don't really do things based on 'right and wrong' I base my decisions and actions on consequence, and on values that can help me be the person I want to be. I don't do what I do because someone else says it's right or wrong, I do what I do because it is the person I want to be. I think that's the only way you can shape yourself, instead of letting society shape you.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 6:58:16 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Sorry, I wouldn't have loved him in the first place if our morals were that divergent. Nor would I help my brother bury a body if he turned into a serial killer. Or just because he doesn't want to pay his soon to be ex half of the value of their community property.

If his needs are that far apart from mine, then we aren't a good match. If to make him happy I have to make myself someone I cannot like nor respect, then this isn't the right relationship for me. Nor him.

I have children. I have raised them to be honorable people by not condoning their every action, but by requiring them to be people who do the right thing, who are moral people who I like and respect. Love is essential in my relationships, but so is liking them as people, wanting them as friends, and thinking of them as good people who I esteem, admire and respect. Which to me, means being moral and ethical people.



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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 7:21:47 PM   
RemoteUser


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Status: offline 		There is something missing to this, and it applies to both sides of the fence.

Morality by choice assumes that the person recognizes both morality and the survival instinct. I'm not citing cases for the insane, here; I'm acknowledging that some people have a skewed instinct for survival based on precepts that are perceived, as opposed to real. If it seems real that you're going to die crossing a bridge, you're not going to cross it, even if the real issue is vertigo.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 7:30:05 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Thankfully Master and I's morals are basically the same so there's not much room for divergence for us. Yeah there are a few nitpicky things that could go either way but I go his way because that's what he wants lol.

Your views sound almost like Master and I's. It's pretty much how we work too. He likes the authority over another but yet there's a romance there FROM the authority. He pushes himself further in his ownership of me and when he feels he hasn't done a good enough job he admonishes himself and pushes even harder. I do the same with him as well. I go the extra mile and he notices it without me even having to show or say anything. It's nice when he smiles though because of the little things that I do for him that he doesn't even tell me to do. I want to push myself further for him and do everything in my power to be the best for him.

IMO, it's awesome!

Good post ResidentSadist.

ETA: the only part I find I can't connect with is about the unconditional love your family has. Unfortunately mine does not have that and I'm not sure Master and I do either. There are always going to be things for both of us that if that button is pushed, we're finished and done. But other than those very very few things, yeah....for me it's unconditional otherwise. So I guess it's conditional unconditionalality. lol



< Message edited by littlewonder -- 6/6/2012 7:37:01 PM >

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 7:35:22 PM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
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Status: offline 		I allways laugh when people bring up morality. Morality is a matter of perspective.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 8:10:20 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Much to like, though I don't think my personal ethics are so easily compromised or casually tossed aside.

I would certainly help bury the bodies, if it was feasible.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 8:28:05 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		Thank you for absorbing my “wall of text” and the underlying implications. It’s not my best writing. Your powers of observation rival or exceed my writing skills. I didn’t plan it or set an outline. It just came out while trying to explain several perspectives and their point of convergence relative to my personal style and view of TPE/ownership.

I think “self-preservation/survival is the only inborn limit, . . . instinctual and not moral.” is a presumption of the intelligent. To postulate arguments to the contrary requires that someone is too stupid to maintain self preservation. Who would want to own someone too stupid to keep themselves safe? I’ll never understand the perspective behind TPE opponents trying to put forth the irrational concept of slaves going on suicidal bank robbing missions ordered by Master. That shit has nothing to do with consensual slavery/ownership as I know it. Seriously, take that idea to the limit. Go back in time, take a real non-consensual slave on the edge of a cliff and tell them to jump or you will shoot them. You'll end up spending a bullet because even a kidnapped tribesman from the plains of Africa without any formal education isn't stupid enough to jump off that cliff. Why oh why would a consensual slave in this modern world with government recourse to protect them do something so detrimental? How narrow minded must you be to propose such insanity and expect it to be received as a valid argument? . . . that would be like proposing your brother was a serial killer and asked you to help bury the bodies.

I agree that for TPE a “foundation of trust needed” to maintain or even start a TPE. Long a go in this thread I said, “If "limits" are a concern to the point you feel you must mention or negotiate for them you are either not suited for TPE or poorly paired with someone you don't trust. Either way, "limits" should be a clue to both parties that something is amiss.”

You said, “I base my decisions and actions on consequence, and on values that can help me be the person I want to be.” So do I. Limits are a precondition where a choice is a reaction (decision). Limits are restrictive and choices are reactive. The philosophy in this "Hell Freezes Over" banner below tries to put into words how choices and morals are conditional. However, in the purest form, by choosing this path or method, it limits your other paths. It's like saying choosing not to choose is a choice. Philosophy is a bitch ain't it?





< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 6/6/2012 8:31:28 PM >

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 8:28:13 PM   
slaveluci


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From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

So with the examples above in mind and in answer to the opponents iconic question, “would you break the law if your owner or property asked you to”

Absolutely. Have done it and will do so again I'm most sure. My morality doesn't match up with all the laws on the books. Never has and never will.......luci

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 8:37:12 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
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Status: offline 		Hmm.

Never measure morality by law. They're two wild bastard children who scuffle in the playground, not even twins - but forcibly conjoined by belief. Nothing more perilous than that.


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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 8:40:54 PM   
Cuffkinks


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Status: offline 		Excellent post.
Due to my strong sense of right and wrong however, (which of course, is relative to the individual) I don't think I'd go along with the burying of the bodies.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 8:48:46 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I toss out my morality and judgmental perspectives...

Are you tying these two together somehow? Morality as inherently "judgmental"? Because being judgmental has a clearly pejorative connotation that goes beyond the dictionary definition of simply making judgments, which we all do. I don't think morality requires being "judgmental" in that pejorative sense. I also don't think tossing morality out the window is entirely a good thing.

Leaving aside the canned moralities that we may have been handed as kids, would you toss honesy out the window? Or are you making a distinction here between morality and ethics? Some people do, though I'm seldom able to get them to clearly articulate the difference. Ethics, after all, is the branch of philosophy that addresses questions about morality.

I don't think I can go along with you on this business of tossing out your morality. In my view, ownership (in the context of WIITWD) imposes a moral responsibility. But at the same time, you seem to acknowledge this in your post. So, maybe some clarification?

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/6/2012 8:55:01 PM >

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 8:48:48 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		You've actually given me some thought here ResidentSadist and it's kinda funny how my bible group tonight talked about the exact same thing except about God lol.

I like what you have to say about limits and you know you're right. When Master and I were getting to know one another I don't think either of us had this list of limits. It was just something that came along naturally through the dating process where we found we shared pretty much the same morals and values to the point I didn't have to worry about him breaking any of my "limits" because basically, there isn't any. Why would I be with him if I can't completely trust him with my life? But like I said there are a few things that would cause us to end our relationship but why would those things ever come up if we share the same morals and values? It's kinda a null and void thing for me at least. I never even really think about it. I don't have to.

So like I said....conditional? Unconditional? Hhhmmm....Basically unconditional since the conditionals are not even ever there or a concern.


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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/6/2012 9:16:31 PM   
delilahdelight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
With time, you can condition someone to like almost anything. Letting them see and feel your passion for it, your perspective is a real good start because passion is contagious. Effectively sharing your passion for it so they see it through your eyes, at the very least, will excite them because even if they don't learn to like the way it tastes or feels, because they now know exactly how much it really turns you on.


This idea is one with which I completely, totally, live-and-breathe agree. And when the above idea, while resting upon that solid foundation of underlying trust, fuses with a visceral experience, the moment can prove transcendental.

Overcoming one's or another's perceived morality...a much tougher sell in my experience.


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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 12:51:35 AM   
Whenready


Posts: 319
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		Interesting post. It resonates.

There's quite a lot I agree with and even more I don't. To grossly oversimplify, what you call ownership reads more like love. If not love, then certainly a very deep commitment, and that's where I diverge. When I'm in a dominant/submissive relationship, I say she is "Mine", and while that might imply ownership, it's a negotiated relationship. To me, slavery/ownership is different. You have a commitment to that person - yet - in my view (your mileage may vary and all that jazz) - ownership does not necessarily imply that commitment - and - in some scenarios - it would be counter intuitive. I don't own my sub. I do own my toaster. If it breaks, I'll get another one. I do not envisage "owning" a person in the way that I own my property.

On the morals side, I would hope that I would have the moral courage to turn my brother in.

I don't know if my ramblings illuminate or obfuscate. They're just my reaction to the initial post. Good one, boss.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 2:52:13 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		As you say, RS, there are going to be some individual personal reflections on what you've written here.  I'm not quite sure why you felt that one line question got to the premise of morals as in regard to ownership.  My interpretation was more "hey, haven't done it, but it sounds like a real jazz in fantasy".  (I never exactly said I wasn't jaded, either.)

I think you and I are different in some terminology matters.  For example, I don't necessarily link the term romantic love as a synonym for the depth of the ownership bond.  That shouldn't be misinterpreted that one is better than the other.  Heck, if people have both, I think that's fantastic.  It's just that, within Myself, I know how to distinguish those two unique feelings and know how to attribute My responses in regards to each.

I'm completely with you in your discussion regarding sacrifice.  Where we differ is in our methods.  I'd actually rather start with someone who has limits and, if we can bond to the level that you are talking about in this post, move beyond that.  Kink for the sake of kink doesn't do it from the ownership angle for Me.  I can *find* somebody who's willing to indulge My kink (and be damn glad to do it) because it happens to already be one of theirs.  It's not the same thing. 

Your burying the bodies bit sounds very much to Me like what I term My priority list.  There's a lot I would do for those folks who are the single/early double digits on that list, but I don't call it unconditional love.  It may only be the extremes that can surpass certain conditions, but they do exist.  Unconditional love is only for those persons to whom I've passed down My DNA. 




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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 3:06:03 AM   
crazyml


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Status: offline 		Top fucking quality post RS.

Will write a proper reply when I'm at a decent keyboard.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 6:34:57 AM   
needlesandpins


Posts: 3901
Status: offline 		i'm not coming at this from a M/s point of view, just my own thinking.

firstly, i wish i had someone who felt that much about me. that i was considered enough to inspire that much love and devotion. reading your op made me sad.

ok, so here i had written loads of other stuff, but it was getting too complicated. i like the idea of 'ownership' in the sence of belonging to each other in what you have, but not being owned in a M/s way.

i like what i have now in that i am my own person, and can give myself to whomever i choose. my playmate can call me his because i choose to give myself to him even though we are not in a full on relationship. he calls me his, or elements of me his, but just how much he considers me to be actually his is a mystery to me. i do not call him, or any part of him mine because he has never said that he is. i don't consider him 'given' to me, where as i consider myself given to him. he only has to claim me, and in the bounds of what i want, and am willing to have 'relationship' wise, i'm his as much as he wishes. so, in that sence i like the idea of 'ownership'. with my ex i considered myself to be his, and him to be mine. that way anyone external would be by permission only, and with veto rights laying with the other person. we both had the right to tell other people to fuck off because 'they are mine'. my playmate does have that as far as i'm concerned, but i don't have it in return. i miss the knowledge, and comfort of that kind of given 'ownership'.

as for limits and boundaries. we both have them. some of mine i would have considered hard limits with my ex, but with my playmate things are different. after a while i realised that i could have softer margins surrounding those limits so that he could push them. i gained enough trust that i knew that if i say stop, it stops without question. it's the same with him too. then if needs be it can be talked about and resolved, or simply could be just one of those things that isn't right for us. we do have different views on things that can mean that we don't agree. the application of the meaning of 'relationship' for instance is one. it would seem that having been in a full on committed relationship for 16yrs my view of what being in a relationship is is way above, and demands far more than what he thinks it is. i also do not think that sexual exclusivity means you are in a relationship. you can be exclusive to someone without being in a relationship. it still feels strange to me to think that i give my playmate far more sexually than i ever gave my ex. but i feel safer in the giving, and that what i give is accepted rather than expected. also that while the limit of that 'give' can be pushed it won't be breached and just taken. however, there are some things that i can not give/allow because of what they insite in me already. for instance, the covering of my ears. i can not describe to you the fear that that action makes me feel, and because of what it is linked to no amount of conditioning is going to change that, no matter how much i trust him.

morals, principles and ethics are tricky things because they are so subjective. however, depending on the subject i wouldn't respect anyone who tried to tell me i should put them aside for their own gain, and at the expence of myself. i am willing to compromise on alot of things though, so speaking about stuff is a must. however, i am not going to break the law so that i compromise myself, my family, or my job.

well that's my bit for what it's worth, which probably isn't much lol

needles

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 6:44:48 AM   
kitkat105


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Very interesting topic.

I find this topic particularly interesting because I find my own relationship evolving and is currently somewhere grey in between D/s and M/s. The concept of total surrender and TPE fascinates me and the more I hear/read about it, the more I want it. I trust my Sir completely, but I'm currently in this weird position of trying figuring out the difference between hard limits and if it is something we mutually agree doesn't need to play a part in our relationship (and therefore not a true limit because it'll never be encountered).

As far as morals go, well, it depends on if they are to do with external or internal factors. Even if there were things we disagreed on, we both appreciate intelligence enought o respect the other person for making their own mind up.

Would I commit a cry for a close friend or family member? No, most likely not. I'd support them through it though unless if was something particularly bad.

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(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 6:55:55 AM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

I want to own her, take really good care of her so she can "feel" my love in a way that it matters to her. I want to fulfill her emotional needs and her passionate fantasies. I toss out my morality and judgmental perspectives, go that extra mile and then some. That level of commitment in ownership and being owned runs both ways. I expect her to go that extra mile for me too.


My husband and I are like this. I would do anything for him and he has proven several times he will do anything for me. I even asked him if he wanted to look at a house I did not have any real intentions of buying. We looked at it and he could tell I loved it. He did not ask me if I loved the house he told me he could tell I loved it, when I agreed he said if I really wanted it, it was mine then. Two months later we closed and moved in. I still pinch myself now and then and think wow he bought me this house even though he had no desire to move.

Now would I help him bury a body???.... hmmmmm That would have to depend on who it is. We would have to be careful though we do have two kids and someone has to stay free to raise them.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 20
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