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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 9:09:05 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Nor would I help my brother bury a body if he turned into a serial killer. Or just because he doesn't want to pay his soon to be ex half of the value of their community property.


Right, I wouldn't bury these bodies either but would have considerably less qualms about a pedophile, for example.

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 9:28:16 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius

I allways laugh when people bring up morality. Morality is a matter of perspective.


It's entirely a matter of perspectives. But, in the end, if I feel something is morally wrong that isn't going to change just because I'm with someone who has different views. I may be swayed by a logical discussion, but there are somethings that absolutely will not change.

Master and I have some areas where our moral views do not meet up. We both understand those things and don't try to force each other into accepting differing morality.


< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 6/7/2012 9:37:33 AM >


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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 9:36:37 AM   
Thaz


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Hmmm familly love isnt always unconditional. I've seen it pushed to the limit and broken all too often. Child abusers and drug addicts do that all the time.

That said I keep a shovel and tarp in my car against the phone call .....and for getting out of snow drifts ;-)

Edit to add more random thinking:-

RS mentioned TPE 'without limits' but then in later posts effectively adds limits. The slave obviously wouldnt suicide on command, likewise unconditional love breaks down if your brothers a serial killer and asking you to hide body after body.

Not so for some. a few years back the partner of a friend of mine had a serious mental condition. She'd be OK for a while and then, pardon my non technical language, go batshit crazy and have to be insitutionalised for a bit. When she came out she'd be effectively a different person each time. He and his familly coped and continued to love her...even when she called the police and told them he was abusing her, cancelled the joint bank account and went at him with a knife. Several times. Over the course of years. I marvelled at their stoicism.

Likewise there are instances of people _wanting_ to sacrifice everying for the person they choose. Do we just write these folk of as insane? Where do you draw the line? Where does insanity start? Wanting to have someone kill and eat you? Wanting someone to take a red hot iron and brand you? Have a bunch of strangers rape you? A lot of people would say yes to all three of those and yet I'm sure people round here would pause to think or ask for clarification of exactly what was meant for one or more....defining what is and what isnt sane behaviour can be tricky. I'd say lighting yourself on fire because the government opresses you is pretty mad but it certainly changed the Arab world.

To me there's no such thing as TPE just some peoples limits are really really out there. But its all just somantics really.

Thaz

< Message edited by Thaz -- 6/7/2012 9:59:19 AM >

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 10:05:38 AM   
ISODoormat


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an interesting discussion
Morality is subject to change, just in my lifetime, my own morals have changed.
Just 100 years ago it was not uncommon for a 15 year-old to marry a  40 year-old. It is still not uncommon in some parts of the world.  (This doesn't mean I am advocating this, just a good example of moral adaptation.)  It is all a relative moment of time and space and perhaps most importantly perspective.
I've had more than one similar discussion with perspective connections; and learned a lot about my self in the process. 

That said some limits aren't about morality, they are some times about comfort factor. (Some people just aren't comfortable with bodily fluids, or excretions.  Never been a big fan of scat or urine play myself, doesn't mean I find it morally reprehensible.)

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 10:21:00 AM   
littlewonder


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quote:

I don't own my sub. I do own my toaster. If it breaks, I'll get another one. I do not envisage "owning" a person in the way that I own my property.


And I think this is the big difference between D/s and M/s. I am property. If I am broken and I can't be fixed, he's gonna go out and get another. Why keep something that's broken and you can't use it? Basically, if you have a relationship with someone and that person ends up "broken" a/k/a fucked up and they refuse or can't be fixed and becomes nothing more than a burden on you, why would you be in a relationship with that person? You wouldn't. You'd break up and find someone that is more of what you seek.



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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 10:49:22 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Nice meaty discussion topic, RS, ty. (And, to no one's surprise, I like the "meaty" ones.)

You've tossed a *lot* out here, so let me do my best to stay focused. First, I would say with very few exceptions, ethics are situational. In other words, subject to change based on the situation. The basic edict against murder is a mainstay of most's moral foundation, but most would also agree that edict would fall by the wayside if their child, themselves, or a close family member were threatened.

So now already that basic edict against murder has been altered to be "I would not murder unless the situation called for it." How does one determine if the situation demands such extremes? One makes a judgement call, and most probably in a situation of great emergency and duress. Many will not make the most ideal judgement call under situations of great emergency and duress. Does that make their judgement call "wrong" or merely "ill advised?"

The answer to that is (almost always) based on society's sense of morality, which in theory is laid out in the laws of the land. Which is why if a man shoots an intruder trying to kill his wife, the law of the land will most likely view this as self defense. If that same husband shoots a man who leered and made provocative remarks toward his wife in public, society will see that as unlawful murder. Yes, there are shades of grey here, but those shades of grey are directly influenced by the degree of imminent threat. Let's remember that, b/c I'm going to come back to it later.

Those ethical tenets that are not based on the situation are highly likely to be societal taboos. Taboos typically incorporate a great deal of emotional aversion, are universal among cultures, and not altered by situation. The taboos against incest, pedophilia, necrophilia, and bestiality, for instance, stand on there own. Very few can imagine a situation wherein they would find it necessary to have sex with a child, or their sister, or the dead family dog. Many people would find their aversion against committing such a taboo so extreme that they might very well choose to die rather than perform such an act. So people do not *always* choose survival over ethics.

We can, however, twist the situation around just a bit to incorporate even more need to test one's ethics and ability to make a judgement call. What if your child would die unless you had sex with RS's donkey? Would you be able to overcome your aversion?

What if your son was attempting to kill his father or mother? Who would you choose?

(BTW: These questions are not being asked to invoke an answer but more to provoke deeper levels of thought on ethics, morality, judgement, and taboos. Sorry for my own wall of text, I *am* going to get back around to it, but I need this foundation laid first).

When it comes to people overcoming deep seated aversions, I am going to say there are people who are inclined to be very rigid in adhering to their morals, and those who see more shades of grey and are therefore less rigid. Someone less rigid may be able to be persuaded to see a shade of grey that someone more rigid could not. But anyone, given the proper incentive (almost certainly a physical threat to themselves or someone close to them), can be induced to do things they feel are morally repellent or have a deep aversion to. The key words there are "given the proper incentive."

B/c we know for history's many examples there are people who have done some morally reprehensible things, not b/c they were physically threatened, but b/c they were following a charismatic leader who appeared to give them emotional things they needed (Jim Jones is coming to mind).

Now, we could have a long discussion about what it takes to alter a person's perspective so that they think mass suicide of children is "okay." That's not the purpose of my post. The purpose is to point out that taking a person from point A (I won't do that, it's morally reprehensible to me) to point Z (now I'm willing to do it) requires many points in between. All it takes is patience, and the ability of one to bend a person's will to his/her own, and then that person's willingness to be bent. Which many would see as the basis of the quintessential M/s relationship.

Which is why I have cautioned people who are seeking a dominant to discover what exactly that dominant's morals and limits are. B/c whatever they are, if you become their slave, those are now your morals and limits.


< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 6/7/2012 10:52:46 AM >


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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 1:01:38 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ISODoormat

an interesting discussion
Morality is subject to change, just in my lifetime, my own morals have changed.
Just 100 years ago it was not uncommon for a 15 year-old to marry a  40 year-old. It is still not uncommon in some parts of the world.  (This doesn't mean I am advocating this, just a good example of moral adaptation.)  It is all a relative moment of time and space and perhaps most importantly perspective.
I've had more than one similar discussion with perspective connections; and learned a lot about my self in the process. 

That said some limits aren't about morality, they are some times about comfort factor.


This reflects my thoughts on the matter. RS, you and I discovered recently that we have different opinions on morals and the development of such. For ME, I myself am living proof as to how I view it. My morality is not that of my family, not even of my own children in many ways, and not that of the people I live surrounded by.

That being said, there are a fairly large number of people I love unconditionally. Most of them do not share my morality. There are things I would never ask of them because I know it would violate their morals and visa versa. No, if one of my brothers or sisters, son or daughter, whacked someone, I probably would not help them hide the body. I may even be the one to turn them in. Insert gray areas here, the W's apply. Too many variables. Just because I love a person does not make me see them as perfect. To ME......unconditional love is loving with eyes wide open, all of the positive and negative qualities.......and all that entails. Unconditional love is NOT unconditional morality or behaviour. If that was the case I would have neve disciplined my children or my grandchildren.

As for how any of it fits within M/s or TPS........well, I am not changing ME just to get someone's kink on. I may do something that doesn't turn me on as much as I would prefer, but in my mind, being the dominant one, the one with the power, means that I get the perk of saying "No." even "FUCKING HELL NO!!!"

If an s-type even dreams of participating in anything that goes against my morals, it's quite fucking simple, they are not mine. They won't even be a part of my inner circle. If an s-type isn't comfortable with my morals, they shouldn't be mine.

_____________________________

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 6:22:32 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


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It's best to not under estimate nor over estimate people's morals, ethics and views. Given the right situation or circumstance people are capable of many things. Yes many people are driven by survival instincts, there's also those which will hold their ground even if it means loosing their life.

Most of this is a mental puzzle game of predicament bondage. The bondage, may be our views, thoughts, emotions, code of ethics, perhaps even our human fuzzy logic. Never under estimate somebody breaking free nor over estimate their desire to do so. Some people are rather content, others won't be content.

Some people will take on the lesser of two evils, while others will be rushing head strong into the greater evil.

What's amazing is that people can attempt to play out scenarios in their minds, a million times.. yet when actually faced with it in reality. That's when the true test of what a person is really made of comes to light.



< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 6/7/2012 6:29:39 PM >


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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 8:28:29 PM   
NuevaVida


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Interesting post, although it's not my view of my own world. A few thoughts that immediately come to mind:

Unconditional Love: I've discovered that love IS conditional for me. Not outwardly, like if you meet these demands I will love you. More like, I will love you with all that I have, and yet there may become a point where that love just goes away. With my ex husband it was a vile act against me. With my ex owner it was an awakening within, which would be too wordy to explain in this thread. My love does go away. It *has* gone away, to my own surprise. My love is conditional.

On Morals: Morals are a personal choice, and mine have changed greatly over the years - based on how I have evolved as a person. I'm sure they will change again, as I continue to evolve. I don't hammer my morals over the heads of others - they are relative only to me. They don't necessarily drive my life, but they do provide various guide rails for me that allow me to stay true to myself.

Being true to myself: This is *my* driving force. I've already done the tossing of morals thing before, in my last relationship. I've already compromised who I am. I've already ignored love of self in the name of loving another. It's not something I believe I will do again. Compromising myself, and stepping away from loving myself was very damaging for me. I can not imagine someone who loved me would require that of me again, and if he did, I can't imagine continuing to respect him. To me, that's not what love is. To me, love is allowing the other people in our lives to live in an uncompromised way, and to encourage and help those people like and love themselves as much as possible. To me, elevating each other is more loving than lessening them, and compromising another at their core, in my world, would be lessening them. This doesn't mean not compromising within a relationship; it means not requiring each other to compromise each others core person. I do believe in human spirit, and continually compromising who I am would be damaging to my spirit.

Now, would I do things for him that I don't really want to do? Of course, but not if it means compromising myself. Yet I'm also of the belief that who I am today may not be who I am tomorrow. But today, if something gives me that horrible sick feeling inside, because doing it would be the antithesis of loving myself, I won't be able to do it. This includes hiding a body. It might not include certain things that others couldn't do. It's all an individualistic thing.

Having said that, I was very careful about who I gave myself to. I would not give myself to someone who would compromise my self-love. So yeah, I guess you could say that's a limit for me. It wasn't a negotiated limit, though. I spent a lot of time getting to know him, and to see who he is at his core, and to trust and understand he was not a man who would bring me there. I had to be able to respect his character, and if he was someone who would want me to toss all my morals and ethics out the window for him, that respect never would have developed, and I would not have had an interest in having an intimate relationship with him.

This is all just speaking for myself, though. If two or more people are enjoying a relationship such as one described in the OP, and thriving in it, then more power to 'em - it's not for me to label that right or wrong. But in order for *me* to thrive, I need something different.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/7/2012 9:44:58 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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I laughed when I got on my facebook and this was there...


quote:

That awkward moment when you dig a hole to hide the body and find another body.
LOL


< Message edited by Moonlightmaddnes -- 6/7/2012 9:46:01 PM >

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/8/2012 4:05:27 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

I laughed when I got on my facebook and this was there...


quote:

That awkward moment when you dig a hole to hide the body and find another body.
LOL



Reminds me of people I knew, many many years ago....another life ago.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/8/2012 4:42:56 AM   
BeautyDebased


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quote:

The display of ownership and being owned is where a lot of passion lies for me. Not displaying in public, although I am human and guilty of ego. My trophy on leash is a nice ego boost. But that isn’t the root of the display to me. It is the display, the proof, the sacrifice you show each other.


Well it's obvious you get it, what it means, the bond, the love, sacrifice and that it goes both ways, I was lucky enough to find a Master who feels similar to you do, of course we vary but we understand it's not all about beatings and that it is certainly a two way road, were getting married in October this year, I am his slave but I am many things too, partner, closest friend, fiance, he has and always will put me before all others as I will always for him.



quote:

My family loves me unconditionally. They don't have to agree or approve of my morals or values. But they will help me do anything that doesn't violate the law of self survival if I asked. In an extreme example that involves violating the law; If my brother called and needed help to bury the body, my answer would not depend on whether it was self defense, whether I morally approved of his killing them or whether burying bodies was in my comfort zone. It would depend on his plan and whether I thought helping would jeopardize my survival and freedom. I don’t have the right to question why he asked, to judge whether he should have asked someone else. My brother is asking me what I will give him, what I will sacrifice for him. My answer should be founded on the same, no other factors count. I won’t think he doesn’t respect my limits by asking. I will think he trusts me to share this, expose himself and make himself vulnerable to me like that.

This example is a far stretch from the trust required to have a menege a tois with your partner when that is out of your comfort zone. But the logic behind it, the choices to go out of your comfort zone for family, for someone you love is the same. When confessing a dark desire or need, you become vulnerable, subject to judgment by someone you care about and respect . . . even if it doesn't require an illegal act or shovel to fulfill their request.


Difficult one, thankfully our morals are basically on par, we have certain things neither of us would do, the biggest one is anything to do with children, neither of us would have an issue burying a pedophile ;). I can't say how I'd react for certain if some other kind of situation arose, I do know that my loyalty is 100% with him, he is everything to me and no-one comes before him, that will never change, so while I doubt a situation would come up where I had to make such a call such as burying bodies, I really don't know, he's not the kind of person to go out killing people anyway so that helps, if someone broke into our house then things may get very ugly but again, unlikely to happen...or I hope so.

quote:

For me, ownership parallels many family value dynamics. My girl (slave, partner, property) is my family. She needs to be able to put up the same type of unconditional family love. For me, negotiating, imposing your morals, your level of comfort by limiting what you will do with your partner just doesn't scream "I love you unconditionally and will prove it".


I especially love this, its a refreshing and beautiful change to see a Master who can proudly say his slave is also his partner and also loved unconditionally as part of his family, it is the same for me, I'm very much a part of my Masters family, I go to all the special occasions, am very good friends with his sisters who are helping with the wedding, plus much more. This post actually shocked me after having read so many poor excuses for masters and their profiles, ie, I won't ever love my slave or see it as a girlfriend, it will be locked away when not in use, that's a psychopaths fantasy however in the real world a Master and slave are still a couple, still partners unless of course it is just casual play. Yes I am very well aware I am his slave but I am also very aware we both sacrifice for one another, we both love and care for each other and we never put someone else first.

Which is why I despise those posts where people ask how they should punish their slave, that's a private relationship and if they can't sort it out like two adults without involving strangers something is seriously wrong, however I find relationships like that don't last long anyway, the other example is the slave who has all these photo's of other men fucking her in her profile and a post saying "this slave was bad and any Masters or Mistresses may contact it's owner to discuss how it should be punished" it.....if someone called me an it and in a disrespectful way, slave or not the response would not be nice, thankfully my Master and I are very similar in how we think in almost every way, we took a while to have me collared but we also feel it's for life or nothing so we had to be 100% sure and I have to say, it truly is only getting better all the time.



mittens.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/8/2012 4:55:33 AM   
stellauk


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Thanks for that OP.. quite a bit of it resonates.

Particularly regarding what you wrote about ownership and unconditional feelings. I have similar views, which is why throughout all years in WIITWD I have never been owned nor have I worn a collar. This is a conscious decision I make on the basis of a choice and so far I have never been in that headspace, those circumstances, that relationship with that person.

There's been very few people in my life with whom I share unconditional feelings.. and still do... simply because the feelings are.. well.. unconditional, and therefore unaffected by time, circumstance and location.

Which brings me to the other part of the OP which resonates - morality.

I don't have any fixed concept of morality. Morality - rather like life itself - to me is about choices, decisions and outcomes. It is only influenced by your belief system, life experience and hierarchy of values which to me are fixed, but to me morality isn't fixed, it's immediate.

You see in life I believe we all have choices.. they may not be the choices we want to make or wish to make, but the choices exist nonetheless. And we make the choices available to us through decisions, and quite often those decisions stand. Sure what we know and what we have experienced comes into it, but for me morality is more influenced by the desired outcome and the change which results from our making that choice and decision.

However as it's already been pointed out, morality is also affected by perspective. I feel that many of our decisions taken are subjective rather than objective, because so often we see what we want to see and hope to see rather than taking stock of the situation in objective terms. We discount and we compensate, constantly, and this can often skew our perception of what actually is.



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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/8/2012 8:11:30 AM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

I laughed when I got on my facebook and this was there...


quote:

That awkward moment when you dig a hole to hide the body and find another body.
LOL



Reminds me of people I knew, many many years ago....another life ago.


I have known a few people in my time that everyone knew not to mess with. They knew where to hide bodies and while they never admitted anything they hinted at the fact that the person that was missing would never be found. So yeah I get that.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/8/2012 10:52:02 AM   
littlewonder


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The awkward feeling when you go to bury a body and find there are already bodies there.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/8/2012 1:18:41 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4


What's amazing is that people can attempt to play out scenarios in their minds, a million times.. yet when actually faced with it in reality. That's when the true test of what a person is really made of comes to light.


That's because there is moral and there is physical. The moral allows you to play out something disgusting in your mind for example but your physical self feels something that your moral self won't feel and that is fear. Of course they can overlap but usually have to involve anger.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/8/2012 2:30:20 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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I've been pondering the concept of unconditional love. Yep, I have it for my children, no matter what they do, I will always love them. I have a rare few other people I feel that way about, none of them alas, family.

But, it is possible to have those kinds of feelings for someone, yet not be able to act on them. Just ask any parent of a junkie.

I do have some issues with the OP's idea that lowering someone's ethical boundaries equals unconditional love. Sure, dominants like to stretch limits and overcome aversions, I get all that. But I also feel you can go *way* to far with that. This is reminding me of the mental domination thread I started some weeks back. You know, mental domination in a good way is good, but in a bad way it's bad) (don't you love these profundities I come up with?), but who decides what is good and what is bad? Who makes that judgement call? How do you know when you've gone too far?

Same here, how do you know when you've brought someone too far over their comfort zone? Or am I getting this all wrong? If someone *won't* go too far over their comfort zone, it means they don't *really* love you?

Yeah, I have issues with that.





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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 2:21:18 AM   
Thaz


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I've faced a few 'moral crisis' moments in my time and as has been mentioned it doesnt turn out the way you think it would every time.

I love my family but when I stumbled across a blood relative alowing her junkie boyfriend to abuse her kids I called the cops on her ass and said junkie was arrested in his hospital bed...and I've not spoken to the bitch in over a decade since.

I got sent home from work once with with instructions to stop a co-worker and friend from 'doing anything rash' on discovering his wife had been cheating on him all through the time she was pregnant with their first child and afterwards. I managed to pry the weapons from him and persuade him that waiting a few years would make him less of a suspect and allow him to look after his son...not how I expected that would have gone.....we'd previously discussed how to dispose of the body as a theoretical exercise on the sunject of infidelity. I hope him since dating a forensic pathologist wasnt research....

Likewise on stumbling across someone breaking into my parents house and I was standing there with a loaded gun ....the poor asshole looked so scared I didnt have the heart...even with a few open mineshafts close to hand. ( I was loaded for vermin mind so it would have been messy, which also crossed my mind).

In short you can _think_ you'll react one way, 'know' it in your gut, but when push comes to shove and its REAL then you find out for real!

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 4:09:48 AM   
Deliena


Posts: 623
Joined: 6/16/2007
From: Darlington, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thaz
In short you can _think_ you'll react one way, 'know' it in your gut, but when push comes to shove and its REAL then you find out for real!


I think this is a very important point. Morals and our expectations of ourselves change over time. I have a child and have already said no matter what she ever does in life I will always love her even if she did something so terrible I wouldn't necessarily be able to like her/what she had done (I have some family members I feel this way about as well).

At the end of the day I try to be honest about how I feel and what I think and do things a way that allows me to look myself in the eye in the mirror each day. That works for me and my family/friends right now, if someone else were to come into my life adjustments would be made but the basic principles I think would hold. Everyone else's mileage will I am sure vary according to circumstances and needs.

(in reply to Thaz)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 4:23:58 AM   
Thaz


Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline
There was an article on the BBC the other day (too lazy to drag it out) about someone who had a lovely middleclass european upbringing, loved their familly, had great relations with all of them despite a strained relation ship between parents and grandmother and then one day...

....discovered Granny had a third reich era chest in the attic full of pictures and artifacts of wwII, her membership papers for the Nazi party, records of her support and help to war criminals _after_ the war, had been sending care packages to those in jail or awaiting execution, diarys of celebrating Hitlers birthday every year post war etc....and that they were in fact direct descendants of major figures of the party. Their parents had in fact been raised in a house adjoining a concentration camp.

The story then went on to cover how many of the children and grandchildren of Nazi's have opted to not have children etc.

Unconditional love does not exist. It can get close though.

(in reply to Deliena)
Profile   Post #: 40
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