RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where's the love?=-

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where's the love?=-

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where's the love?=-

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4]

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 8:41:43 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

So you can have unconditional love for someone, until you don't. And that's what he means when he says it doesn't exist (excuse me for speaking for you Thaz, if I got this wrong, please let me know) -- you only have it because it has not *really* been tested. And for most people, it never will be tested.

Loved your whole post but absolutely agree with this, due to my own experience. I'd have sworn up and down I had unconditional love for him...until, to my own surprise, I no longer did, due to his own actions. Because guess what? It was tested. And there was only so much I could and would accept. Never thought it would get to that, but it did. This is why I say my love *is* conditional. It doesn't mean he has to meet a list of conditions to receive it; it simply means that certain, undefinable conditions can make that love die. If those conditions are never met, then the love never dies. But if a certain line in my heart is crossed, love really can shut off.

I'm OK with that. It's my personal truth. My personal reality. I think unconditional love is a nice, romantic notion, but also a fallacy. We *want* to believe we're capable of it. It makes us feel good inside to believe that. But it *is* possible for that love to go away.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 61

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 8:59:09 AM

BeautyDebased

Posts: 96
Joined: 3/20/2009
From: My Masters Feet
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amaidiamond

Yep I had one Dom who didn't care...

In a way it was worse because he didn't care either way, so when he insisted on buying animal tested products it stung more... was not with him for long at all

My Owner is not all that fussed about testing etc, but as long as the brand i buy works he lets me get on with it...

And I have converted him to a few yummy products :D

You sound like you also have an amazing bond with your Master, it's nice to meet other girls who do, I always find it sad when a Master does things without any thought to how his slave may feel because to me, lifestyle or not it's still a relationship, it still involves everything any other kind of relationship does, with differences of course but the fundamentals should remain the same, I too have convinced Master on a few things and He was happy for it, if He doesn't like something then He will just tell me, we have a very close bond too and don't take everything seriously, I think that's also important.

Too tired to comment on the unconditional love thing too much but with Master and I, we have vowed if something happens to one of us, neither of us want another, and it's as simple as that, my love for Him just as His love for me is unconditional, some may not believe in that, and that's fine, each to their own and all but I know my relationship, we tell each other everything, have each others passwords to everything, if someone calls, it's on speaker, were also best friends, to us, no-one comes before the other, not family, or anyone, maybe that's just how we are but it works for us and we are both very happy, and that is another thing that matters or there's no point.

I love that I can tease Him and that when something comes up, no matter what, for example, a dom being an ass to me on CM, we just laugh about it together, it's not Him and me, it's us and we are a team, i'm just not in charge and never want to be, I love my place,.....of course, I have to torment Him sometimes, thankfully I know what's too much, when I would have crossed the line, thankfully it's very rare I do, I can't remember the last time I was punished, hardly any need to when I just respect, love and obey Him, and try my hardest, that's all I can do, in return He loves, protects, cherishes and is there for me no matter what and we have had our own little bumps in the road as does everyone but if you give up, I truly feel the love was never there, or not fully to begin with.

Edited: Should have added that for me, like Master, near all of our family are and have been in lifetime or very long term relationships, some having gone through some extreme hard times where most would throw the towel in as they say but they haven't given up, the only exception being one of my aunts who moves from man to man but that's her own choice too, so I guess since I have witnessed it as much as He has we have faith in it and know it does exist, that may be why, and why other people see it differently.

mittens.

< Message edited by BeautyDebased -- 6/9/2012 9:14:30 AM >

_____________________________

-Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you-

MAT 7:6.

(in reply to amaidiamond)

Post #: 62

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 3:09:09 AM

needlesandpins

Posts: 3901
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

So you can have unconditional love for someone, until you don't. And that's what he means when he says it doesn't exist (excuse me for speaking for you Thaz, if I got this wrong, please let me know) -- you only have it because it has not *really* been tested. And for most people, it never will be tested.

Loved your whole post but absolutely agree with this, due to my own experience. I'd have sworn up and down I had unconditional love for him...until, to my own surprise, I no longer did, due to his own actions. Because guess what? It was tested. And there was only so much I could and would accept. Never thought it would get to that, but it did. This is why I say my love *is* conditional. It doesn't mean he has to meet a list of conditions to receive it; it simply means that certain, undefinable conditions can make that love die. If those conditions are never met, then the love never dies. But if a certain line in my heart is crossed, love really can shut off.

I'm OK with that. It's my personal truth. My personal reality. I think unconditional love is a nice, romantic notion, but also a fallacy. We *want* to believe we're capable of it. It makes us feel good inside to believe that. But it *is* possible for that love to go away.

i totally agree with this too. when younger i had thought that nothing could ruin love if it was total and complete. however, as i worked my way through my relationship with my ex i realised that he chipped away at that love with his actions, or lack of them. i think it can be easy to repair something and forgive it if it is not repeated. however, when that thing is repeated, and the other person knows how bad it makes you feel i think it just kills something everytime. in the end i realised that this whole love i had for him was disappearing. i was nolonger 'in love' with him which also made things harder to accept. the other thing i think is, if this person loves you the way they want you to love them, why would they keep doing these things to you, or why keep pushing you so that you feel bad?

i consider my love for my son to be the most i am capable of loving someone. he is the extreme of my love. however, i can not say that it is unconditional because if he were to abuse children, rape women, murder people for the fun of it (for i find murder subjective) and so on then i wouldn't love him. i think i'd actually grieve the loss of my son.

needles

_____________________________

I deserved better. Not than you, but from you.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 63

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 3:10:39 AM

needlesandpins

Posts: 3901
Status: offline

deleted double post

< Message edited by needlesandpins -- 6/10/2012 3:11:30 AM >

_____________________________

I deserved better. Not than you, but from you.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 64

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 3:44:02 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Without crossing the line of what's acceptable for discussion, I would have to think that anyone who has children knows that love for everyone else is conditional. There's absolutely stuff that people can come up with in their mind that should *any* person do to your offspring, there's none of this, "oh, but I love them anyway" stuff.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to needlesandpins)

Post #: 65

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 3:59:05 AM

Thaz

Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Without crossing the line of what's acceptable for discussion, I would have to think that anyone who has children knows that love for everyone else is conditional. There's absolutely stuff that people can come up with in their mind that should *any* person do to your offspring, there's none of this, "oh, but I love them anyway" stuff.

Sadly Lady P there are plenty of people who this _doesnt_ seem to apply. I've known several people who have either abused their kids or allowed them to be abused by loved ones and not done anything about it. Besides the example I've already given I knew a convicted unrepentant pedophile who on release promptly moved overseas to join his wife and kids and no doubt restart his abuse of their twin boys....and his wife welcomed him with open arms*. Some people are just broken and IMHO need destroying or locking up for ever. The man in question was no doubt in my mind insane, his wife I have greater trouble understanding.

(* Luckily the new host nations law and order took a very dim view of it all once informed)

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 66

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 4:16:53 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thaz
Sadly Lady P there are plenty of people who this _doesnt_ seem to apply. I've known several people who have either abused their kids or allowed them to be abused by loved ones and not done anything about it. Besides the example I've already given I knew a convicted unrepentant pedophile who on release promptly moved overseas to join his wife and kids and no doubt restart his abuse of their twin boys....and his wife welcomed him with open arms*. Some people are just broken and IMHO need destroying or locking up for ever. The man in question was no doubt in my mind insane, his wife I have greater trouble understanding.

(* Luckily the new host nations law and order took a very dim view of it all once informed)

I know what you are saying here is true. I've heard (as I'm sure everyone has) of situations where some individuals have 'looked the other way' because they loved

the other adult so much. I can't understand that way of thinking. I'm more the 'you'd better hope the cops come and get your ass before I get you' type. There's very little that could push Me to violence, but that is on the list.

I feel very disconnected with other members of the human race who don't think the same way.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Thaz)

Post #: 67

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 4:38:56 AM

Thaz

Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline

I question wether the people in question are in fact members of the human race, or at least should be treated as such.

And people wonder why I wont kill and innocent animal but would happily advocate the death penalty if only we could eliminate human/judicial error.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 68

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 5:14:16 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

That is the unfortunate aspect of humanity. We each try to place our own morality and boundaries, our own emotional guides, our sense of sane......onto all other humans. It is our comfort zone to do so, even if it is a false comfort.

Even on here, I've seen people allude to doing things that I, if I witnessed it, would be perfectly comfortable killing them for.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 6/10/2012 5:16:18 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Thaz)

Post #: 69

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 5:58:19 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

There are people who are so hugely broken, so needy for love, they will forgive the person they love *anything.* To lower your ethics to allow someone sexual access to your children, sure, that's "unconditional love" I suppose (in some sick way). And yes, you do have to wonder about how they got that way. I know many many people who have been hugely abused from a young age, and they managed to overcome it and become great people. There appears to be some (genetic?) flaw in some people that makes it impossible to do this.

Unfortunately these types of submissive victim personalities attract their opposite, the predator. I know both these personalities well, I have examples in my own family. The subs I consider victims, the predators, really they are not human to me, they have no spirit to me, they're just meat. And for me that's saying a *lot* -- I'm one who believes everything, plants, animals, rocks, whatever has spirit.

Again, I don't know how you lose yourself to this degree. I can only assume the soul becomes so damaged you can't put it back together.

This does, in some round about way, bring us back to lowering ethics and unconditional love. I would say only a predator type would take advantage of a victim type in this way. But then, aren't all sadistic doms, to a certain extent, predatory? I don't mean that in a bad way necessarily, I mean they have predatory instincts.

And aren't all masochistic subs in that same way having some victim instincts?

Please don't misread me, I'm not saying all doms are predators and all sub victims, in the way most define those terms. I am saying, like all human behavior, this type of behavior has a gradient.

You have to be a bit of a victim to allow your maso side to come out, even consensually. And you have to be a little bit of a predator to allow your sadistic side to come out, even consensually. (JMO folks).

Which does bring us back around to a question I would love to discuss (b/c I don't know the answer), how do you know when you've gone too far? Sure, that line in the sand for each willing victim is individual, but how does that person's dominant know where it is? And how much control does it take not to keep moving that line until it's not sand anymore, it's rock, and to keep pushing means breaking a person irrevocably?

Just some question whirling around in my head as I ponder this magnificent thread (again thanks, RS).

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 6/10/2012 5:59:09 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Thaz)

Post #: 70

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 6:02:11 AM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

When I say that my love for Master "conditionally unconditional", what I mean is that we have such similar values and morals that I have no need or concern for much of anything at all. We seem to think alike on almost everything and those things we don't are really not that big a deal. Even if we were to end, I think we would still have a love for each other just in another form. It's something extremely, extremely rare for me to say about anyone at all (like only one other person who I've ever been with other than my child) so for me to be able to say that is astonishing in and of itself.

I think what happens is a lot of people get into relationships with someone that does not match their morals and values on the important stuff because they can't see beyond the immediate satisfactions instead of taking the time to really dig deep into the other person for more than the superficial values.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 71

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 6:07:47 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

Oh I know exactly what you mean there. I have the same love for both of the men in my life. We are so ideally suited in this way, I can say I love them unconditionally, as if they were family, b/c to me they are, and will love them both in this way until I die.

But then I would venture to say that both you and I were emotionally healthy enough to make informed choices in our partners.

It's why so often on threads when I see emotionally unhealthy people seeking a partner I urge them into therapy. I doubt it helps, but I have to try, you know?

_____________________________

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 72

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 6:42:20 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Which does bring us back around to a question I would love to discuss (b/c I don't know the answer), how do you know when you've gone too far? Sure, that line in the sand for each willing victim is individual, but how does that person's dominant know where it is? And how much control does it take not to keep moving that line until it's not sand anymore, it's rock, and to keep pushing means breaking a person irrevocably?

Just some question whirling around in my head as I ponder this magnificent thread (again thanks, RS).

Chatte, there are two points here I've often considered.

Being predatory. Oh I already know I am. If thought was a crime, if people knew a fraction of the thoughts that go through my head... I would be locked up for certain.

Which then leads to where the lines are and how that applies to morals. Or perhaps, how morals apply to the lines. At some point in life, usually pretty young, we have some pretty set ideas of how life should be. Not only in how it applies to ourselves but even moreso I think, in how others should be living their lives according to our ideals. Then, hopefully, (though far too many people don't) we get out into the big diverse world, and see what a microcosm we'd been developing in. Hopefully again, we strive to educate ourselves and see beyond our narrow little point of view. Begin to see the millions of shades of gray versus the two of black and white.

In that discovery, we start getting rid of some of the baggage we realize we didn't need or that doesn't fit us. Morals are a part of that. Perhaps, we change our views on homosexuality, or polygamy. Usually those changes are driven by one of two things, our own personal desires and a drive towards self acceptance, or acqaintances we've come to care for, and want to accept. Aka, peer pressure. That process can go on through most of our lives, depending upon the influences.

Some people, even after peeling away layer upon layer, will find a rock solid core that is unwaivering. Certain things that, regardless, cannot be changed by any influence.

However, and honestly more than we as humans want to admit, I honestly believe, given the right influences, that between internal (our desires) and external, our morality can be changed to extremes that are pretty fucking scary. We excel at rationalizing to make our choices 'okay'. Especially to ourselves.

It's why societies create laws. As much as we would like to believe that we are strong enough to make the best choices on a consistant basis, I think we are fooling ourselves. So we create laws to protect ourselves when we are weak, being influenced by either our own desires or other infuences.

The laws protect others from our self delusions as well as protect us from ourselves.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 6/10/2012 6:48:25 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 73

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 6:59:19 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

Some people, even after peeling away layer upon layer, will find a rock solid core that is unwaivering. Certain things that, regardless, cannot be changed by any influence.

However, and honestly more than we as humans want to admit, I honestly believe, given the right influences, that between internal (our desires) and external, our morality can be changed to extremes that are pretty fucking scary. We excel at rationalizing to make our choices 'okay'. Especially to ourselves.

Yes, I believe that most human beings can be conditioned to just about anything. This ability is deeply embedded in our DNA. Evolution is all about survival of the most adaptable, and humans are undoubtedly the most adaptable beings on the planet by far !

Most of the time, this is a good thing. But it does mean that within the right set of circumstances, a person can be conditioned to be something....not quite human. It's why I am so vehemently against those who think "breaking" an s-type is part of owning a slave. You *can* break someone to the extent you can't put them back together again.

_____________________________

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 74

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 7:12:52 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Yep. And the part that is more scary to me, is how a D or M type can just as easily be influenced, but in different, and perhaps more insidious ways. Then, the trickle down of that to the s-type.

It could be something as innocent as a move. If the D/M type wants to get involved in the local BDSM community. Some activity there was a core hidden desire for but the surroundings had always made it immoral. A move, a new BDSM community. Friends are made, a few very close and respected friends. Those close friends participate in that activity and have a different morality, making it more acceptable for the person that moved to alter their own morals to allow for that activity.

On the surface, in a short period of time, we can all say we would not be so easily influenced. That as M or D types, we would be strong and cast aside the new friends, or that we would not succumb to something that was against our 'morals'. But I don't think it's that simple. As scary as that is.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 75

RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/10/2012 7:21:27 AM

Thaz

Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline

T'other day I was sat in a meeting (yawn). I asked where one of my colleagues was and was told he had been signed off stress....there were a series of knowing expressions around the table and I was quite uncomfortable with the general mood.....

Then a senior manager said 'Poor chap, I know he suffers terribly and would much rather be here. Still there but for the grace of god...'
He meant it as well. The mood changed. I bought him a drink later that night....

It takes stones to go against bad group think.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 76

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4]

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where's the love?=-

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4]

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.078