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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 2:16:06 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
I can compare it with my own experiences here in South London. I'm developing a fringe theatre company and over half the professional actors I work with are on benefits.

If they are professionals you should be paying them otherwise they are amateurs by definition i.e. if they can't earn enough by doing it not to have to claim benefits.

What you said is a bit like someone saying they are a professional footballer when in reality they are part of a five a side team.


Not really. Please bear in mind that these are actors who have Equity membership, .. Equity cards.

They have previous paid work and do paid work elsewhere. You have to do a certain amount of paid work to get an Equity card.

This is standard in the performing arts, everybody does unpaid work. This isn't a case of having a drama degree and knowing Shakespeare. Despite what some people think that's not enough to get funding. You really do have to achieve something first.



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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 2:23:00 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Professional to me has a clear meaning you can blur the lines all you like but most people know what professional means. It doesn't mean 'those that were once able to earn a living by doing something'.

What's the standard for having an Equity card really? Isn't it just another union membership i.e. if you can pay the fees you can join the club?

If we all took the attitude that we should all only do what we love then they'd be no benefits system, so perhaps that's what we should be doing?

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 6/15/2012 2:24:21 PM >

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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 2:43:48 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		Stella, your situation is unique, and I can tell you if you would have applied while we were running the company, I wouldn't have had the slightest problem, I didn't have the slightest problem with the welfare moms, I was actually trying to help them as I thought they don't want to be welfare moms.

As for the hairdresser (and the joiner), they are willing to pay somebody for doing a job, it might not be a great career choice, manual labour and all that, but it's WORK, same as the coffee shops, same as the cleaning, same as dog walking. The hairdresser said she spent weeks training somebody, and training somebody takes away from the time she can work in the beginning, she needs help desperately, she's willing to pay wayyyy above minimum wage for answering the phone and sweeping up, if a person shows they are reliable and serious, she will consider training, but to get to the training she wants a bit of commitment first, and she doesn't want it for free.

Seriously, reading how hard you tried to find a job, I would actually expect you to be a bit pissed off with people who just don't want to do jobs and ruin it for everybody else.

When it comes to prejudices, trust me, I had my fair share of them in the UK, I dare say my English is as fluent as that of any English native speaker, yet since I don't have a British passport, trust me, I heard it all... My CV is pretty impressive, guess what, I'm not working for an English company, I'm technically German as I hold a German passport, mind you the majority of my time I didn't live in Germany, my parents are Swedish and Italian, German blood - maybe a blood transfusion somewhere down the line? Yet I spent a lot of my own money going to interviews where they didn't really want me, but just wanted to see a German as they heard they are all brusque. Think that pissed me off? Betcha...
Out of 3 continents and roughly 10 different countries, the UK is the most racist place I've encountered, before I moved to the North, I lived in London - hardly ever encountered racism there, you leave London and it hits you in the face, and yes, mostly by people who wear trackies. I don't have a particular accent, for most Northerners I sound "posh", when I mention that I'm a foreigner, hell breaks lose, I can take my pick of stealing their jobs (they're welcome to the job, they only need to several advanced degrees, international work experience, a few languages and they can have it - would actually help if they would have worked before) or I am a "benefit scrounger" - oddly enough never a Penny, but hey, I'm not British, must have come over for benefits. Actually the only reason why I came over was that I can work from about anywhere with internet access, my other half is British, chances of him working on the continent were quite slim with only English and Welsh as languages. After living in big cities like Melbourne, NYC, Munich, Cologne, Vienna, Milan, Paris, Zurich, London, etc. I really wasn't too keen to live in a rather small place in Cheshire, mainly populated by footballers. My company transferred me, I made the mistake of sinking my savings into a house here, after the company closed down, I freelanced for a while, built up the web based company which I sold after a while (might have sold a lot later and for more money if it wouldn't have been for the staff problems - yup, creating work, just a shame that nobody wanted to work apart from the students), the money I earn doesn't come from UK companies, yet I am paying tax in this country, quite a chunk, yet I am more often than not being treated like a 3rd class citizen, I'm pretty sure you're familiar with it, though I doubt it's quite that bad in London, as you said, far more metropolitan than the rest of the country. I can't tell you how much I want to puke if I hear a bunch of drunk chavs going on about the Polish taking their work and benefits, are they talking about the people who are actually willing to show up for work and do a day of work? Which is more than those people are willing to do.

Yes, the person who does hire makes the call, but if I want a job and earn money, it might be an idea to not show up in the most unsuitable attire. If I had no other choice, yes I would do a cleaning job, and I would figure out that fake nails with bling aren't what somebody expects to see when it comes to a house cleaner. It's not rocket science that if you go to an interview, you don't look like you're dressed up for a night of clubbing. I'm a huge fan of leggings and leisure clothes, I don't show up for meetings in them. I understand the cards were stacked against you, but I doubt you showed up tangoed to a more fluorescent shade of tangerine with enough makeup to keep KISS in business for years, nails at a length and curve which makes it impossible to actually do any work and flashing too much bare skin...

As I said, I'm perfectly aware that there aren't enough jobs around, but as long as the jobs that are around aren't even filled because they don't offer "brilliant careers", I'm a bit baffled, I guess we should offer CEO positions to people without any credentials just because they want brilliant career chances and big earnings just to get out of bed....

The reason why I might not be all that sympathetic is simply because I had to work my way through university, and that included quite a few jobs that weren't great (late night shift at MaccyD just one of the examples), they weren't fulfilling or great fun, but they paid the bills. Now if somebody wants kids, cool, down with that, but why should I pay for their upkeep and the upkeep of their offspring, just so that single mom can whelp every 2 years to avoid having to work?

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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 3:26:59 PM   
LadyConstanze


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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

It's just amazing how similar the outlook toward those on benefits is here and in the UK.

Here in the states, you don't get benefits unless you've got kids, though. Unemployed, and your unemployment has run out (presuming that you have enough credits to qualify) and you are pretty much out of luck. It's even harder if you were a "middle class" type of person who worked in an office and got downsized. The poor of this country have a knowledge of what benefits are available that most people simply DON'T. I have a young cousin who's a foolish bint, to put it mildly, and she is actually managing just fine on benefits and handouts from her dad. MANAGING. Not living glamourously. And it seems that she's okay with that.

Metro Detroit does have that stereotype of the welfare queen driving the Cadillac to pick up her check, and perhaps that was true in the 80's, but you don't see that anymore. What we do see--and this is surface, of course--is people with limited resources and no concept of what to do with their money, stuck in the mire of poverty consciousness. When all you've ever known is the projects, that's what your picture of life is. Add to that the new culture of entitlement AND the 20% unemployment rate of SE Michigan (Flint and Detroit, recently named the two cities in the US with the most violent crime!) and it's not a surprise that there's not much mobility in any direction.

My professional clients that have fallen on hard times will do any damn thing to bring in cash. Work is work. Paper route? Sure. Window cleaning? Okay. Because they worked all their lives? Maybe.




You have no idea how different it is, seriously, if you are unemployed in the US, you're screwed, Europe has a social system, I am glad we have it despite it being exploited a lot. Personally I would be down with that unemployment benefits just enable you to survive until you find something else. The problem is that families have perfected being social cases over generations, it's hard to break the mould and the usual argument is the welfare trap, that they would have to work hard at a job and make only a bit more, not working and watching daytime TV seems to be preferable. I'm sorry but if those "hard done by" mothers still have money to spend in bars, to buy cigs and booze, to turn shades of tangerine or mahogany (not natural colours for Britain) and to have long curved nails with bits of bling sticking on them - I can't help but think "that's money you should spend on your kids". A mom being left by her guy and struggling, ever bit of sympathy because it is difficult, somebody setting out to have the maximum amount of kids so she doesn't need to work but gets the big house and then spending her time partying (neglecting the kids) and falling pregnant again at the opportune time when she should be looking for work - a bit difficult to feel for her. I might sound terribly old fashioned but having kids is a responsibility, it requires sacrifices, don't have kids and expect others to pay for it and your life-style, just doesn't really work....

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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 3:32:15 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I'm sorry but if those "hard done by" mothers still have money to spend in bars, to buy cigs and booze, to turn shades of tangerine or mahogany (not natural colours for Britain) and to have long curved nails with bits of bling sticking on them - I can't help but think...


Isn't Katie Price a successful brand.

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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 3:40:01 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I'm sorry but if those "hard done by" mothers still have money to spend in bars, to buy cigs and booze, to turn shades of tangerine or mahogany (not natural colours for Britain) and to have long curved nails with bits of bling sticking on them - I can't help but think...


Isn't Katie Price a successful brand.


While I find her puke worthy, at least she can pay for her own costs, though most of the tarts taking her as a role model can't. Mind you her idea of having a "makeup for 4 year olds" and making them up like mini-mes, really gave me a pause. The last thing the world needs is a bunch of pre-teens looking like hookers - or Katie Price. Gotta love a woman who falls drunk and drugged out of bars during her pregnancy but puts the disability of her oldest child down to a rare genetic disease, not anything she inhaled or drank, of course not, she only had the occasional glass of wine and otherwise was tired and emotional... And the earth is flat

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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 3:48:37 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Yep I don't know what happened along the way I just remember the first time I saw her breasts and she seemed quite normal, but that seems a lifetime ago.

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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 4:16:15 PM   
MercTech


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Status: offline 		Hmmm, the yank here had to google Katie Price to see what you were talking about.

Hmmm, the images on google look to me like a graduate from the Tammy Faye Baker School of Cosemetology.

You know the mail order kit comes with 37 different sizes of spatula for makeup application? <giggle>


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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 4:33:20 PM   
PeonForHer


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I thought some stats might help this part of the discussion along a little. There's only so far that anecdotal evidence can take us, of course. So, for instance:

"[P]eople seem to considerably over-estimate the share of false claims among benefit claimants. Even if we put together fraud AND customer error, the latest figures show that 3.3% of unemployment claims are ‘false claims’, and a mere 1.1-1.2% of disability benefit claims. ............... So for people on average to think that 30-40% of claims are false is a massive, massive over-estimate – far more than could be explained by the difficulty in getting good estimates of fraud rates."

Source: Inequalities: Research and Reflection from Both Sides of the Atlantic


"The latest report estimates fraud and error levels in the benefit system in Great Britain.

"For 2011/12 (preliminary), it is estimated that 2.0 per cent of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error. This is down from the 2010/11 level of 2.1 per cent.
The estimated value of overpayments is £3.2bn, which is the same as the 2010/11 estimated value.
For 2011/12 (preliminary), it is estimated that 0.8 per cent of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error, the same as the 2010/11 estimate.
The estimated value of underpayments is £1.3bn, which is a rise from the 2010/11 value of £1.2bn."

Source: Dept of Work and Pensions website.


Those latter stats, to underline the point, include those who've been overpaid by mistake.

People have got their grossly distorted beliefs about the prevalence of benefits fiddlers from somewhere, presumably. So, firstly, who are we to blame, if not the politicians and the media who bang on about it? And since the figures *are* so small, it begs the question: What is there to be gained by those - like politicians and the media, for instance - who go on about benefit fraud?



< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 6/15/2012 4:39:42 PM >

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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 4:40:38 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		It's not really about benefits cheating though.

It's more about the system giving people no incentive to do anything else but live off of it.

What's kind of wrong when you think about it is you can legally make claims for housing benefit and such when people working would not be able to afford the same homes through their pay alone, there is something wrong there. Although I'm not for the social cleansing of areas, which seems to be occurring at present.


< Message edited by FullCircle -- 6/15/2012 4:45:35 PM >

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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 4:46:57 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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We have this tax thing called the 'earned income credit'. At its heart, it's a tax credit for working families. The reality...somewhat different. Estimates of fraudulent claims paid run to the hundreds of millions. A person with two children can get a third of her income in tax refund, between EIC and child tax credit. Let's just say that tempation to work that system is great, and it's a tremendous due diligence issue for tax preparers.

We don't hear much about it in the press, though. Is tax fraud not glamourous enough?

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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 5:06:36 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

It's more about the system giving people no incentive to do anything else but live off of it.



Indeed. But why the focus on benefits claimants with that question? Why don't you ask it of the ponces amongst the powerful and the wealthy? That's the point I'm making. The system has given many of our bankers no incentive to do anything but live off the much, *much* vaster handouts that have been given to them. I mean, really, heads up, folks. We now live in a country in which leading politicians, including the Prime Minister, are up in front of a major enquiry that points to one of the worst kinds of corruption.

It's the focus, always the focus. That's how the end-point of propaganda works. People generally say, at this point, "Oh, I hate the incompetent, greedy bankers, too. And the cheating politicians, and the bent journalists. I'm against them too". And then they forget about that subject and go straight on back to that of benefits claimants.



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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 5:19:45 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		As a resident of the country that bailed out Wall Street whilst allowing its veterans to become homeless, I offer the guess that it's about relative power.

The poor are a very easy target. They're always with us, right? We can see them, asking for handouts. We can donate our castoffs, throws some canned goods in the food drive bin, and generally feel superior. And how very dare they take more than they're offered and then spend it all on junk food and fake nails!

Most people never see rich people outside of television. They live in a magical otherworld doing jobs with vague descriptions and get paid the GDP of the average third world country. What can we say or do to change their situation? The US is a country run by rich men, for the benefit of other rich men. Who sign the paychecks of most of middle america. Trickle down economics!

So...the recent Occupy movement was spawned. That was helpful.





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RE: racism - 6/15/2012 5:59:40 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Professional to me has a clear meaning you can blur the lines all you like but most people know what professional means. It doesn't mean 'those that were once able to earn a living by doing something'.



Can you please clarify what you were meaning or implying by the part above which I've bolded?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

What's the standard for having an Equity card really? Isn't it just another union membership i.e. if you can pay the fees you can join the club?



Well you know, Equity does have a website, and if you can find your way here I'm sure you can also find another website called Google.

You might find that it's better to be informed before you express an opinion on a particular topic, is it not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

If we all took the attitude that we should all only do what we love then they'd be no benefits system, so perhaps that's what we should be doing?


What attitude?

Care to spell that one out?

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RE: racism - 6/16/2012 3:55:48 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

People have got their grossly distorted beliefs about the prevalence of benefits fiddlers from somewhere, presumably. So, firstly, who are we to blame, if not the politicians and the media who bang on about it? And since the figures *are* so small, it begs the question: What is there to be gained by those - like politicians and the media, for instance - who go on about benefit fraud?



Thanks for the links Peon.
Cameron is guilty of selling this idea. When he came to power in 2010 he started selling the idea that people were out of work and claiming benefit due to their own inadequacies. He pledged a crackdown on welfare ‘fraud and error’ and declared that it cost the tax payer over £5 billion a year. He had cunningly combined the cost of fraud with that of errors on part of officials (which amounted to over £4 billion a year).
Media and popular entertainment jumped on Cameron’s band wagon, portraying the unemployed welfare claimants to be the lowest of the low.


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RE: racism - 6/16/2012 6:04:45 AM   
MercTech


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RE: racism - 6/16/2012 7:06:22 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

People have got their grossly distorted beliefs about the prevalence of benefits fiddlers from somewhere, presumably. So, firstly, who are we to blame, if not the politicians and the media who bang on about it? And since the figures *are* so small, it begs the question: What is there to be gained by those - like politicians and the media, for instance - who go on about benefit fraud?



Thanks for the links Peon.
Cameron is guilty of selling this idea. When he came to power in 2010 he started selling the idea that people were out of work and claiming benefit due to their own inadequacies. He pledged a crackdown on welfare ‘fraud and error’ and declared that it cost the tax payer over £5 billion a year. He had cunningly combined the cost of fraud with that of errors on part of officials (which amounted to over £4 billion a year).
Media and popular entertainment jumped on Cameron’s band wagon, portraying the unemployed welfare claimants to be the lowest of the low.




Maria, from what I can make out, every government has talked about 'cracking down on benefits claimants' since Thatcher's day. I've been thinking for a long time, now, 'Why didn't the first round of 'crackings down' work - or the second, or the third? How much more cracking down on them is required before they're considered to be well and truly 'cracked'?'

The truth is, I think, that there's no other group at the bottom of society that a government can get away with scapegoating right now. Racism went out of fashion some decades ago: it no longer looks good for the papers and the politicians to blame ethnic minorities for everything. The Tories used to zero in on one parent families - but that's out, now, because they've talked too much about 'compassionate conservatism' and tried too hard to get away from their 'nasty party' image.

But there *has* to be some group at the bottom to hit - otherwise people might just start blaming those at the top for our country's various ills. And that, of course, would never, ever do.



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RE: racism - 6/16/2012 7:18:49 AM   
Deliena


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Status: offline 		How about the other side of it? The billions that are kept by the government because people don't claim what they are entitled to due to the culture in this country of labelling anyone claiming a benefit as a 'cheat' or 'scrounger'?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17139088

That's actually a bigger number than the fraud figures - even including the price of our civil service's incompetence. It's bloody rare anyone rants about that.

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RE: racism - 6/16/2012 8:24:11 AM   
MercTech


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ORIGINAL: Deliena

How about the other side of it? The billions that are kept by the government because people don't claim what they are entitled to due to the culture in this country of labelling anyone claiming a benefit as a 'cheat' or 'scrounger'?



Hmmm, and my experience in the U.S. is that so many benefits go unclaimed because of the huge layers of bureaucracy designed to frustrate and deny claimants. Heck, medicaid spends 90 cents of every dollar in their budget on administrative costs.

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RE: racism - 6/16/2012 10:34:03 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

It's just amazing how similar the outlook toward those on benefits


You have no idea how different it is, seriously, if you are unemployed in the US, you're screwed, Europe has a social system, I am glad we have it despite it being exploited a lot.


What she said. Though I have to say that I was a bit shocked how little you get in the UK when you lose your job. In Germany I get 60 or 66% of last (or average of last 12/24 months) salary for the first 6 months of unemployment, then I fall onto "benefits II" where I get about €374 per month, which is still a fair bit more than the £270 a month...

Now, don't get me wrong, I agree it doesn't have to be that much, especially not with the ones who play the system, but I do prefer those 6 months over here where you still get more during that time and are able to clear some stuff from maybe a bit of a higher living comfort you used to have until it gets reduced...

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