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The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 11:24:31 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		HERE is Missouri’s version of Stand Your Ground law and a recent result of its use.

I’ve no sympathy for a punk who verbally and physically assaults a Grandfather with his wife and grandchild in the car and I believe he got what he deserved… I personally would have aimed for his eye rather than his arm.

That said… I feel like I am living back in the wild west with vigilante justice. I just cannot understand where the need and desire for these laws are coming from. They serve no real purpose… they don’t seem to reduce crime…so why have them?

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing
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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 11:47:38 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		I think they will reduce crime. The guy that was shot will think twice before he punches another grandpa. No more road rage incidents for him.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:04:46 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		To me arguing over being cut off is not a reason to be killed. Without the law...and the right to carry in Missouri the old man would have rolled up the window and drove away. But the laws enabled him to use force that was not justified or needed.

In my opinion anyway... What if the punk pulled a gun and started shooting... maybe the child would have been killed.... by the way should the child have been exposed to that kind of violence...hell no....One was a punk and the other an old punk.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:04:58 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		According to MSNBC & The FBI Crime rates are near historic lows...
quote:

Violent crime rates in the U.S. are reaching historic lows, according to new FBI data released Monday.

Instances of murder declined overall by 1.9 percent from 2010 figures, while rape, robbery and aggravated assault declined by 4 percent nationwide, according to records from more than 14,000 law-enforcement agencies around the country, FBI spokesman Bill Carter told msnbc.com.

Follow @msnbc_us

The number of property crimes also registered a 0.8-percent drop, motor-vehicle thefts declined by 3.3 percent, and arson was down by 5 percent.

Although the findings, released in the FBI’s Preliminary Annual Uniform Crime Report, represent a seemingly small decline in crime overall, they aren’t just a blip. Rather, criminologists say, the decline is part of larger downward trend and the result of a series of changes that have contributed to a more peaceful society.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/11/12170947-fbi-violent-crime-rates-in-the-us-drop-approach-historic-lows?lite

While the story gives us a few reasons for the decline, what they clearly fail to mention is...
quote:

Reports also suggest increased demand for concealed carry permits and for learn-to-shoot seminars such as NSSF's First Shots program. "We have seen a lot of first-time buyers in our store," said Joe Keffer, owner of the Sportsman's Shop in New Holland, Pa. "People want information. They're interested in instruction."

One of the best indicators of firearms sales is the FBI's National Instant Background Check System, which federally licensed firearm retailers use to conduct the mandatory background check on purchasers of new and used firearms. NSSF downwardly adjusts the NICS data by subtracting checks related to non-purchasing activity, such as checks for concealed carry permits, in order to gain a more accurate picture of market activity.

December marked an unprecedented 19th straight month of background check increases when compared to the same period in the previous year. NSSF-adjusted background checks for December totaled more than 1,410,937 (1,854,400 "unadjusted")--the most ever for any single month. This comes on the heels of the historic "Black Friday" (Nov. 25, 2011) record for the most background checks in a single day--129,166--a 32 percent increase over the previous one-day high.

http://nssf.org/newsroom/releases/show.cfm?PR=011812.cfm&path=2012






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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:06:29 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		So, Obama is for gun ownership and has brought down crime rates as well.

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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:15:47 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

So, Obama is for gun ownership and has brought down crime rates as well.

The gun industry has played people like puppets, spreading fear over things that were never on the horizon and never happened, but sold millions to people convinced the fiction was true.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:20:18 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		Nothing happens overnight. Incidents like this might, perhaps, in time, evolve into a more polite society.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:22:28 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

According to MSNBC & The FBI Crime rates are near historic lows...
quote:

Violent crime rates in the U.S. are reaching historic lows, according to new FBI data released Monday.

Instances of murder declined overall by 1.9 percent from 2010 figures, while rape, robbery and aggravated assault declined by 4 percent nationwide, according to records from more than 14,000 law-enforcement agencies around the country, FBI spokesman Bill Carter told msnbc.com.

Follow @msnbc_us

The number of property crimes also registered a 0.8-percent drop, motor-vehicle thefts declined by 3.3 percent, and arson was down by 5 percent.

Although the findings, released in the FBI’s Preliminary Annual Uniform Crime Report, represent a seemingly small decline in crime overall, they aren’t just a blip. Rather, criminologists say, the decline is part of larger downward trend and the result of a series of changes that have contributed to a more peaceful society.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/11/12170947-fbi-violent-crime-rates-in-the-us-drop-approach-historic-lows?lite

While the story gives us a few reasons for the decline, what they clearly fail to mention is...

What the story does is mention the one actual reason for the decline
quote:

Additionally, with the current U.S. median age at 37.2 years, older than ever before, the aging population is another possible cause, LaFree said. “There is some truth to the fact that younger people commit more crimes,” he said

Fewer men between 15 and 25 = fewer crimes period. Concealed carry laws do not change that.

(in reply to subrob1967)
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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:23:55 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Nothing happens overnight. Incidents like this might, perhaps, in time, evolve into a more polite society.

Like, say, Afghanistan, a model country of gun ownership.

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:24:20 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

So, Obama is for gun ownership and has brought down crime rates as well.


Single handily, tell me, was it before or after he personally led the raid and shot bin Ladin?

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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:25:21 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

So, Obama is for gun ownership and has brought down crime rates as well.

The gun industry has played people like puppets, spreading fear over things that were never on the horizon and never happened, but sold millions to people convinced the fiction was true.


I live it every day out here in the mean streets.  LOLOLOL.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:26:14 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Fewer men between 15 and 25 = fewer crimes period. Concealed carry laws do not change that.



You know this?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:28:53 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

You know this?


That's what I think everytime someone correlates data with a presumed but not established causal link.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:30:54 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

According to MSNBC & The FBI Crime rates are near historic lows...
quote:

Violent crime rates in the U.S. are reaching historic lows, according to new FBI data released Monday.

Instances of murder declined overall by 1.9 percent from 2010 figures, while rape, robbery and aggravated assault declined by 4 percent nationwide, according to records from more than 14,000 law-enforcement agencies around the country, FBI spokesman Bill Carter told msnbc.com.

Follow @msnbc_us

The number of property crimes also registered a 0.8-percent drop, motor-vehicle thefts declined by 3.3 percent, and arson was down by 5 percent.

Although the findings, released in the FBI’s Preliminary Annual Uniform Crime Report, represent a seemingly small decline in crime overall, they aren’t just a blip. Rather, criminologists say, the decline is part of larger downward trend and the result of a series of changes that have contributed to a more peaceful society.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/11/12170947-fbi-violent-crime-rates-in-the-us-drop-approach-historic-lows?lite

While the story gives us a few reasons for the decline, what they clearly fail to mention is...

What the story does is mention the one actual reason for the decline
quote:

Additionally, with the current U.S. median age at 37.2 years, older than ever before, the aging population is another possible cause, LaFree said. “There is some truth to the fact that younger people commit more crimes,” he said

Fewer men between 15 and 25 = fewer crimes period. Concealed carry laws do not change that.


Where did I say that gun sales were the ONLY reason for the decline? And can't there be MORE than one reason for the decline? Plus you kinda missed the aging population is another possible cause part, didn't ya?

After all you made it a definitive fact with this statement...
quote:

Fewer men between 15 and 25 = fewer crimes period
... You may just be wrong yet again, Ken... Just sayin'

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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:31:38 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Nothing happens overnight. Incidents like this might, perhaps, in time, evolve into a more polite society.


You want a more polite society, then I suggest that conservatives come up with some sensible arguments and law ideas rather than the bullshit they are spewing.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:31:52 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		Lets see, both drivers were not aware of whom had 'right of way' that started the whole issue. The motorcyclist believes the grandfather cut his wife off (placing her in danger). And so reasonably the motorcyclist would be 'flipping mad' as anyone would. The grandfather believes the motorcyclists (that's the plual of 'motorcyclist') cut him off. Believing that placed his wife and grandson in peril got him 'mightly upset'. If they had handled this issue like adults, calm down and simply tried to make 'head or tails' of the intersection, all of this could have been avoided. But this is America! Where we solve our problems with firearms!

However, both kept arguing. The grandfather, rather than admit he's old and his reflexes are not as good as when he was 20, shows how much wisdom he has obtain over the years by taking out a loaded firearm. The two argued even further on top of that, including spitting at each other. And where are the women during all of this? On the sidelines, doing and saying nothing? What I'm getting at here, is that 'reason' and 'wisdom' left the 'conversation' LONG before either dude's life was imperil. The grandfather helped instigate the conflict rather than tried to limit it. Is that REALLY what these laws are to be interpeted as in this situation?

The grandfather didn't do anything to really 'slow things down, and allow cooler heads to prevail'. Taking out a gun doesnt say "lets be calm about this', but that that 'my way is right, cus I have a gun!'. Cus, we dont have hundreds if not tens of thousands of instants in which someone flashing a gun has led to both sides relaxing and talking things over like adults, right?

The question here is, if person A goes out of his house, attacks person B (physical damage, or violet words), and THEN retreats to his house after person B starts to kick his butt; If person B follows person A (the instigator) into the house, can person A shoot them under the castle doctorine? Thats not what the castle doctorine was set up to do. In fact, it was set up to handle an entirely different scenario!

So while the criminal courts feel the grandfather is within his right to behave as he did, a good civil court lawyer will roast him over in damages. Having a firearm is much like being a black belt in a martial art form. If you do nothing to ease tensions but rather help increase them and act on it; your generally at fault for damages. You should know that with 'great power, comes an even greater responsibility, to use that power correctly and wisely'. I dont know many firearm owners who take a careless stance with the usage of guns.....EVER.


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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:34:39 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
You want a more polite society, then I suggest that conservatives come up with some sensible arguments and law ideas rather than the bullshit they are spewing.



Oh! Ok.

May I have "Class Warfare" for $1000, Alex.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:34:53 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Nothing happens overnight. Incidents like this might, perhaps, in time, evolve into a more polite society.

Like, say, Afghanistan, a model country of gun ownership.


Like Somalia too!

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:35:42 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Fewer men between 15 and 25 = fewer crimes period. Concealed carry laws do not change that.



You know this?

Concealed carry laws prevent men from being between 15 and 25?

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 12:36:46 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		I tend to agree, both men yelling at each other is hardly the way to solve a problem, however, IF I were the unarmed man in this situation, I would have shut up when the gun was drawn. Clearly the old man had a few issues of his own to deal with, since he drew a gun on an unarmed man.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 20
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