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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/13/2012 8:38:57 AM   
Missokyst


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I tend to have a lot of trouble with obedience. I have the demeanor of a strong independent woman who is used to calling the shots.. and I am. Until I come face to face with someone who knows how to deal with that and not always from a honorable standpoint. There is a part of me, a large part, that responds to situations as if they demand a fight, flight or comply response. And since I am a person who gathers the information around me to determine my options before I make a move, compliance is always the first step.
When faced with an order I gauge the urgency of the need. If I can do it I will. If I can't I will say no. If he restates the demand I hear it in a different way. His voice may be at the same level but it my mind I hear it louder. It becomes a command and to that I will always comply. This quirk in my nature is why I got married. It is why I will turn around, lower my panties and put my hands on the table to be caned. It is also why I was able to get a potential kidnapper to lower his gaurd so that I had time to execute my escape.
Obeying for me is a natural response, out of fear, or instability, or control, once that flip has been made in my head I am unable to just say no. It's a negative personality trait that sometimes keeps me bound inside myself so I won't have to face it head on.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/13/2012 10:07:55 AM   
CalifChick


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From: California
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We've been together for about a year now. He gives very few orders, and when he does, he expects to hear "Yes Sir". I told him "no" recently, because he had forgotten something that made it impossible to me to obey the order. He thought I was trying to weasel my way out of it, and my saying "no" told him that it was serious. He thought about it and modified the order so that I could do it.

I don't test him, or manipulate him, or any of that high school crap. I want less drama in my life, not more. I want him to be pleased with me, not exasperated.

Cali


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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/13/2012 11:53:11 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucifyre


quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius

"You didn't prepare for anal today?! Well, then I guess when I throat fuck you in a few minutes it's gonna suck to be you. Now, go get the louissianne out of the cupboard and a trashbag."



What is it with some guys who get off on making thier women puke? I'm not asking that in a snarky way either, this is not the first place I've heard of this particular thing and I'm really curious as to what it is that exctes you about it. Obviously vomit is NOT sexy.
I had a horrible experience when I was young that made sucking cock in the first place a really difficult thing for me to do. Him cumming in my mouth made me gag and sometimes even throw up...every time, for almost 20 years. Swallowing? No fucking chance.
I managed to get past that particular trigger <very> recently but I still have some issues with it occassionally.
I worship Him, and every single part of him. I do very much enjoy giving him that particular pleasure...almost to the point of needing it to feel complete every day now. (The sucking his cock daily was my idea, not His) But it took a long time for me to get past that mental picture from my past and be able to scrub it from my brain and be able to focus just on Him and how good I was making Him feel so that I could enjoy what I was doing as well.

Lucifyre


Master doesn't like puke. He doesn't like anything gross or messy or smelly, etc....When he says what "oh, well", he is simply saying that it's my fault for not being prepared and that if I puke, I'll have to clean it up. He is saying he doesn't care if I puke...just do what I'm told.

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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/13/2012 12:01:41 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

We've been together for about a year now. He gives very few orders, and when he does, he expects to hear "Yes Sir". I told him "no" recently, because he had forgotten something that made it impossible to me to obey the order. He thought I was trying to weasel my way out of it, and my saying "no" told him that it was serious. He thought about it and modified the order so that I could do it.

I don't test him, or manipulate him, or any of that high school crap. I want less drama in my life, not more. I want him to be pleased with me, not exasperated.

Cali




There is a difference between the high school games and playing around I see posted here. At least that is what goes on in our house. My husband and myself play around a lot. But we are both very easy going laid back people.


Ewe yuck puke is gross. I will do everything in my power to not throw up when I am sick. I hate it. Thankfully my dom despises it as much as I do.

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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/13/2012 12:50:51 PM   
Endivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucifyre

What is it with some guys who get off on making thier women puke?



I don't "get off" on making a woman puke. I get off on a lot of things. Making her puke isn't one of them. That said, if I want to do an activity and she knew full well to prepare for it and didn't, tough shit for her. Maybe next time she'll make a better effort, maybe she won't. I really don't care. She knew when she started seeing me, exactly how I was gonna be and I don't negotiate or barter. That said, I repect medical and psychological hurdles, I am not a monster (although many who have spent the night will say otherwise) I want her to feel safe and secure, to trust me with more than just her holes. In order to do that, she has to know that I will not violate her limits no matter what they are. Outside of that exception, she knows full well I'm a twisted bastard. I only have relationships with women who seek a twisted bastard.

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Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/13/2012 12:53:29 PM   
Endivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

He is saying he doesn't care if I puke...just do what I'm told.



Pretty much my sentiments. I'm not into scat play either, but if she makes a mess, it's on her.

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Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/13/2012 1:46:44 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

He is saying he doesn't care if I puke...just do what I'm told.



Pretty much my sentiments. I'm not into scat play either, but if she makes a mess, it's on her.


I could not help but laugh and remember when my oldest was just a few months old. My dom got real good a moving quick since he spit up alot. That scene just went through my head. "Woah puking baby." he would say and move very quickly. LOL

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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 4:06:23 AM   
LadyPact


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I knew I wasn't going to have the time I would need to dedicate to this post when I first read it, so I waited until I had the appropriate opportunity.

I do understand what you mean, CP.  I honestly don't have a lot of tolerance for the jpc group.  There have been a few recently that just made Me wonder how in the hell they got to be an adult in life without having any sense.  Ok.  Rant over.

In all seriousness, I couldn't be more firm about obedience than I already am.  If I gave a command and the reply was "no" there had better be something to go along with it.  I believe in reasons, not excuses.  That's why it's a command and not a request.  It may even sound like a request, but it's really not.  If I tell you to do it, that's what I expect.

I don't know who all of these screwed up people are that command the dumbest stuff, but honestly, that should be somebody's first clue.  If they don't know you well enough to know something is a bad area for you, they probably shouldn't be commanding you anyway.  I happen to think I'm rather easy to obey.  (I'm sure all D types think that, but in My case, it happens to be true.)  I don't screw with people's livelihood, jeopardize them in any harmful way, and I know them well enough that growth doesn't have to feel like jumping off of a skyscraper.  I also don't feel that I have to prove I have power.  I don't have to come up with outlandish scenarios to see if you really will obey.  I should already know that you will, even though I admit to forgetting it sometimes.

I came across a bad situation in My personal life recently, and as much as I am not promoting this as a universal answer, the only thing that could get somebody to stop some really bad behavior, and get help was My control and his obedience.  (Please remember that I am NOT promoting this as the universal answer.)  It was the only way to get his head right because that other guy who sure looked like him was NOT the person that I knew.  I yanked the leash pretty hard to snap him out of it, and thankfully, it worked.  Hey, I'll even cop to that female manipulation thing that was mentioned.  I admit that I knew that when I did it.  Not using that particular tool in the toolbox was probably why it got to the point that it did.  It absolutely was the right one for the job.

That was probably confusing as hell to some.  I'll just have to call it a ramble, but that's where My head is right now about obedience.


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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 5:56:15 AM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucifyre


quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius

"You didn't prepare for anal today?! Well, then I guess when I throat fuck you in a few minutes it's gonna suck to be you. Now, go get the louissianne out of the cupboard and a trashbag."



What is it with some guys who get off on making thier women puke? I'm not asking that in a snarky way either, this is not the first place I've heard of this particular thing and I'm really curious as to what it is that exctes you about it. Obviously vomit is NOT sexy.
I had a horrible experience when I was young that made sucking cock in the first place a really difficult thing for me to do. Him cumming in my mouth made me gag and sometimes even throw up...every time, for almost 20 years. Swallowing? No fucking chance.
I managed to get past that particular trigger <very> recently but I still have some issues with it occassionally.
I worship Him, and every single part of him. I do very much enjoy giving him that particular pleasure...almost to the point of needing it to feel complete every day now. (The sucking his cock daily was my idea, not His) But it took a long time for me to get past that mental picture from my past and be able to scrub it from my brain and be able to focus just on Him and how good I was making Him feel so that I could enjoy what I was doing as well.

Lucifyre


Master doesn't like puke. He doesn't like anything gross or messy or smelly, etc....When he says what "oh, well", he is simply saying that it's my fault for not being prepared and that if I puke, I'll have to clean it up. He is saying he doesn't care if I puke...just do what I'm told.

Not to mention that if said incident occurs, she damn well knows she won't be cleaning it up with anything but her tongue.

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HST

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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 7:36:31 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Thank you mummy, and yes it was a very similar situation, except we had never previously discussed it.

And of course, I realize in retrospect that I should have opened up a discussion with him. I was not paying attention to how risk adverse he is when it comes to his career.

Totally my own bad. It ended up with us talking at length, and I agreed he did not have to do it, and we would not even discuss it further unless he wanted to. It's been over two years with no further discussion, so I'm assuming he won't go there !!

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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 7:44:23 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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I appreciate all the many replies to this thread. Some quotes that really resonate with me (all this from page one only, still working on the rest):

quote:

Here, the girls choose to obey.
TN

quote:

I have the discernment to know 'who' to obey. Once that was determined, the rest was a piece of cake.
BitaTruble

quote:

As for the no thing....I better have a damn good reason for not doing something. I forgot or I don't want to do it are not reasons, they're excuses. But there have been times I didn't do something because other real life stuff made me not able to and those he understands so he'll work around that and find another way or time for me to do it.
littlewonder

quote:

I really do have a fetish for obedience. It's not that I am interested in someone who will mindlessly repeat my orders, but don't say no to me without a damn good reason.
and
quote:

I am not interested in making people do things 'just because' outside of a scene. Making people uncomfortable in daily life is not my trip.
LadyH

quote:

I do not care who someone is or what their role is, you have to have a certain amount of common sense. I have not been here long but I did see the post you are referring to and had to do a face palm and eye roll.
Moonlight

quote:

I don't mind bratty subs. Do I want thier input on things? Do I want to hear if there is something I haven't thought of, or an angle I hadn't considered? Ofcourse. I'm not omnipotent. At the same time, just because I want that input, does not mean I'm going to change my mind. I'll throw that into the logic wheel with all other possibilities, and spit out a decision. Once the decision is made, that is it, period.
Endivius

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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 8:01:53 AM   
OttersSwim


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We don't have an obedience-based dynamic, but a service one. I don't get my cookie from being forced to obey...however...our dynamic isn't based on resistance either, so when she asks me to do something, I do my best to obey.

Such as the time when she had a violet wand with a little pompom attached to it with the metal coated falls, and she held it at my crotch level and told me to walk into it. I am NOT into CBT. Not in any way, and I knew that was going to fucking hurt.

But I looked her straight in the eye, said "I love you." and stepped forward.

I agree with folks who state that declining a command can be harmful to the dynamic. If I had refused to step forward, it would have been a very different, much less connected, much less in contact with our dynamic sort of evening - in fact, it would have thrown everything into question, stopped everything, and incited fairly deep discussion about what we were about and if we were going to continue.

Obedience is often an "edge" in our types of relationships. Important to recognize when you come close to it, and treat it seriously.


< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 6/14/2012 8:02:28 AM >


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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 8:02:47 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida



I'm not in the habit of disobeying but yes, it happens sometimes. Rarely, but it happens. Usually in a time of stress. This relationship is too important to both of us, with an amazing future ahead, for him to toss it out because of an anomaly. There may or may not be punishment involved, and there will always be serious discussion involved.

There have been two times when I have dug my heels in over something. Both times were situations which put me at a very high level of emotional stress, and had to do with principles more than anything. My heels were not dug in lightly. Both times it caused us to re-evaluate the relationship and whether or not we should continue with it. But both times, the stress involved in going forward with his order would have caused me more stress than losing the relationship; I really can not compromise who I am, nor does he want me to. Lots and lots of discussion, and some time apart, and a revamping of certain things about the relationship, we have moved forward.

I'm really glad for that. An "obey or leave" rule would have left us both without a relationship that we both find pretty awesome.


This was the kind of example I was looking for, situations where the sub feels they have to say no, not b/c they are being a brat, but b/c an emotional moat has been reached, and the couple has to either agree to stop (break up the relationship) or build a bridge over it.

From my own experience, when both can work together to build that bridge, it really deepens the relationship. With the example I cited with my boykin, I have to say he has so much more trust in me, real trust, b/c he knows my first reaction is not to kick him to the curb.

And yes, I was angry, I didn't like his disobedience at all. Fortunately I gave myself some time to think about it, and then we talked.




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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 8:10:12 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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May I ask what kinds of "orders" you get or give that cause issue?

I am not a person that gives a lot of orders, I don't think...other than "knock it off, you're posting to cause trouble", or "go to bed, your late hours are bad for you", I'm not in the game to cause strife. Just bring me my coffee and scratch my back, and don't make me look bad.

Whenever these kinds of discussions come up, I wonder what I'm missing, or doing differently, or viewing differently.

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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 8:18:50 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subbyinlosangele





A lot of this is going to depend on what stage your relationship is in and how well you know someone. BDSM, of course, is built in a foundation of trust, and trust comes from knowledge and understanding of each other. If you are telling someone to do things without a true knowledge and understanding of him, he is certainly within his rights to say no.

If, for example, you want to take compromising photos of someone and he didn't know you well enough to know if you could be trusted with them, he would be right (and probably wise) to say no.

So the real question is, he is saying "No" because you have not take the time to built that foundation of trust, or to understand and appreciation his limits?

I have a different perspective than you. I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with a sub telling a domme no. It should be the opening to a good discussion.


That subs will have (or at least should have) differing levels of trust and thus obedience dependent on how far the relationship has progressed is a great point. THANK YOU. B/c it ties into what poise said about the jpc's and everything being so new, and subs thinking they have to obey and never question, etc.

As to your last sentence, I don't *necessarily* think a sub saying no is intrinsically wrong. I certainly didn't mean to imply that. Although I consider obedience the backbone of submission, those rare times when a sub says no are great opportunities to learn more about each other, hopefully in a good way.

I will admit, Himself is far better at this than I (possibly due to experience LOL). Actually, he's just naturally more laid back and is very attuned to emotional landmines.



< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 6/14/2012 8:37:49 AM >


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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 8:28:26 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Subs that are inspired to be obedient rarely say no, IMO. But they do when they hit an emotional landmine of some kind. And how you handle that emotional issue to me says a great deal about your relationship.

You know, I called them landmines for a reason, b/c if you don't handle it well, the whole relationship can blow up in your face.

I have been thinking the last few days about when I have said no to himself. Now, when it comes to a basic, simple demand "get me paintbrushes and spray lacquer from the hobby shop," I just do. If I have to rearrange my schedule, fine.

I think when couples run into trouble is when pushing those emotional limits that we all have. And that's going to vary for everyone. For me it's intimacy and trust for those I don't know well. It takes me a *long* time to trust. It took us 12 years (admittedly we were not really a couple for about 4 of those years) for me to trust him to handle the common money. This is the first time I've ever done this, and it's pushed all my trust buttons.







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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 9:47:45 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
This was the kind of example I was looking for, situations where the sub feels they have to say no, not b/c they are being a brat, but b/c an emotional moat has been reached, and the couple has to either agree to stop (break up the relationship) or build a bridge over it.

Ahhhhh... I think I understand where you were going better now. This happens less commonly for Carol and I because of the knowledge we have of each other. But I DO still get surprised from time to time. An example from our history is wearing the collar 24x7. I wanted Carol to do so. She expressed deep hesitations. I told her to do it anyway... which she did. She wore the damned thing 24x7x365 for quite some time... 2 years maybe. But at some point I understood that despite 2 years of actual experience with "nothing bad happening" she was still hating every moment of it.

I had gotten my obedience so I was happy with that. But I wasn't happy with the amount of gain I'd gotten from her wearing it versus the cost to her for wearing it. I also wasn't happy with the fact that she still had not learned the real lesson... that it's OK to claim your own personal space and within limits John Q. Public can go to hell. So the collar came off and I started working on the underlying issue more directly.


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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 10:01:02 AM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Subs that are inspired to be obedient rarely say no, IMO. But they do when they hit an emotional landmine of some kind. And how you handle that emotional issue to me says a great deal about your relationship.

You know, I called them landmines for a reason, b/c if you don't handle it well, the whole relationship can blow up in your face.

I have been thinking the last few days about when I have said no to himself. Now, when it comes to a basic, simple demand "get me paintbrushes and spray lacquer from the hobby shop," I just do. If I have to rearrange my schedule, fine.

I think when couples run into trouble is when pushing those emotional limits that we all have. And that's going to vary for everyone. For me it's intimacy and trust for those I don't know well. It takes me a *long* time to trust. It took us 12 years (admittedly we were not really a couple for about 4 of those years) for me to trust him to handle the common money. This is the first time I've ever done this, and it's pushed all my trust buttons.








I have never said no. I have been overwhelmed by sick children or other minor disasters and completely forgotten before. But then with my husband if one of our kids gets sick or we get hit with a tornado and a tree lands on our house, everything else takes a back seat.


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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/14/2012 10:29:46 AM   
RaspberryLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
This was the kind of example I was looking for, situations where the sub feels they have to say no, not b/c they are being a brat, but b/c an emotional moat has been reached, and the couple has to either agree to stop (break up the relationship) or build a bridge over it.

I really like how you describe this, and how you described them as "emotional landmines" as well. There are things for me that could very much be described in that way, and for the most part my Master knows better than to trod on these things. Of course, there have been times that something unexpected (for both of us) has come up, and we inevitably came to one of these emotional moats. In these cases we always chose to build a bridge over these spots as you put it, and I can definitely agree that it solidified and strengthened our relationship in the process.

I don't necessarily see a submissive saying "no" in these situations as disobedience in all cases, but more of an honest confession that what has been asked/required of them is not something they are capable of, or not something they are capable of without experiencing substantial harm.

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RE: Let's Discuss Obedience - 6/15/2012 3:43:37 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I tend to have a lot of trouble with obedience. I have the demeanor of a strong independent woman who is used to calling the shots.. and I am. Until I come face to face with someone who knows how to deal with that and not always from a honorable standpoint. There is a part of me, a large part, that responds to situations as if they demand a fight, flight or comply response. And since I am a person who gathers the information around me to determine my options before I make a move, compliance is always the first step.
When faced with an order I gauge the urgency of the need. If I can do it I will. If I can't I will say no. If he restates the demand I hear it in a different way. His voice may be at the same level but it my mind I hear it louder. It becomes a command and to that I will always comply. This quirk in my nature is why I got married. It is why I will turn around, lower my panties and put my hands on the table to be caned. It is also why I was able to get a potential kidnapper to lower his gaurd so that I had time to execute my escape.
Obeying for me is a natural response, out of fear, or instability, or control, once that flip has been made in my head I am unable to just say no. It's a negative personality trait that sometimes keeps me bound inside myself so I won't have to face it head on.


This post really resonated with me, and as you know, Missokyst, we have both been in similar relationships with predators who were highly abusive. So I feel I have to take some time to share what has gone on with me in the last 10 years, b/c it may be useful for you.

I am also a strong, independent woman, and I used to be just like you in that, if someone could flip that "you must obey" switch, I was totally passively obedient, even to my peril. Somewhere in my mind, this translated into dominance to me. I felt I could submit only to someone who I feared in a way.

Then I met Himself, and he turned out to be my best friend. But, I didn't fear him and still don't. He's the nicest, kindest man in the world. But since I didn't fear him, I felt he wasn't dominant enough for me. I have *always* gone for the super alpha (at least slightly) macho sadist types of dominants. So he and I broke up as a couple (though we still remained best friends and still lived together, but no sex, I don't do fwb). I began searching for another dominant, and I found the usual ones I have always been attracted to, those super alpha sadists. Except this time, I could see that they were not right for me. I could see that submitting through fear was just plain wrong. I wanted someone to inspire my submission, b/c I trusted him, b/c I felt safe. And those these men could float my boat on a sexual level, I did not trust them at all. I couldn't get past the very beginning stages of trust.

I also got involved with this very adept predator who really made me sit back and evaluate what the flaming fuck I was doing, and what I wanted, and how I viewed dominance, and the whole ball of wax. And I realized something, which is that fear may be a great motivator, but as you point out, it's a negative one.

In any case, I started taking another hard look at himself, at his style of dominance, which wasn't hard, we still lived together. He had remained my best friend through all of this. The upshot is, he and I got back together. And I am now with someone who inspires me to obey, not through fear, but through great leadership of a quiet, laid back variety.

Best, Chatte

_____________________________



(in reply to Missokyst)
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