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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/19/2012 11:22:21 PM

LadyHibiscus

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It's power exchange, not power *struggle*. If you just want the Good Parts Version, keep it in the bedroom. Otherwise, don't do anything until reality sets in. Fantasy players are an exercise in frustration.

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/19/2012 11:33:03 PM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abledfire

I think I'll sit down with her and reopen the discussion. Explore what we both want and hope to get out of this.

Kerching!

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/20/2012 8:32:17 AM

DesFIP

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Make sure what you tell her is doable. Tell her that when she goes grocery shopping, she should buy Granola and not Special K for you. That you hate Brussels Sprouts with a passion and they are never to appear on the table again.

Don't wait till she gets home from work, tired and hungry to announce you want a complicated dish that requires a special trip to the store. Tell her you want that sometime this week so she has time to get the ingredients and do all the prep.

No more than one new rule a week so she has time to get used to them. And some of them should be for her benefit not yours. IE if she skips meals and her mood suffers, tell her she has to eat something for lunch unless she's sick. Could be a couple of power bars and a salad but she has to eat. Tell her to stay in her seat until you open the car door for her.

Before you go about punishing her, figure out why she couldn't obey. Solve the problem so it doesn't happen again. Make sure you don't punish her for not being able to obey. IE if she's spending the day at the doctor with a sick kid, she doesn't get punished for not being able to have lunch or make your favorite dinner.

About punishment, she needs a learning curve. It takes a month of doing something a new way every single time before it becomes a habit. So if she opens her own door ten times a day and you do it twice a week on date night, expect it to take almost a year before she remembers. Don't punish, just give her a learning curve.

Consequences are better than punishment. If you hate to see dishes in the sink, and she doesn't do them after dinner, then she has to go do them and she misses the first part of her favorite show. However, if she doesn't do them because she's helping with homework, then no consequence. Either you help with homework or you do them, since it's unfair to give her all the work.

Most of all, when she does stuff you want, notice it and be appreciative. Make deposits to her love bank, not just withdrawals.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 6/20/2012 8:38:05 AM >

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/20/2012 9:22:28 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

Before you go about punishing her, figure out why she couldn't obey. Solve the problem so it doesn't happen again. Make sure you don't punish her for not being able to obey. IE if she's spending the day at the doctor with a sick kid, she doesn't get punished for not being able to have lunch or make your favorite dinner.

Some very good stuff in this post, especially what I bolded above.

Also note:
- Not everybody has a punishment dynamic.
- There is also such a thing as a funishment dynamic.

ETA the period :)

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 6/20/2012 9:45:17 AM >

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/20/2012 9:25:57 AM

LadyHibiscus

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And not everyone has a punishment dynamic PERIOD. Because relationships are about synergy, not finding new ways to diminish each other.

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/20/2012 10:35:39 AM

abledfire

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quote:

Make sure you don't punish her for not being able to obey.

Thank you for your post DesFIP (love the His Needs, Her Needs quote by the way). I completely understand that I shouldn't punish if she can't. I would never punish her for not doing the dishes because she can't, but will punish if she's able to do it, not doing anything else, and just doesn't want to, to the point she gets defiant. THAT warrants punishment. I just don't know what a suitable punishment would be. I tried spanking, but that turns her on, so therefore doesn't curb the behavior. I'm not the most imaginative person, and can't think of any punishments.

And I do admit that I could be more available to her and spend more time with her. For the longest time, I was under the false impression that being dominant meant that I told her what to do and that I didn't have to do anything. It didn't take long for a fight to break out, let me tell you. And I have since learned that she will be willing to do things I ask if I have given her needs priority first. In other words I am learning to earn the respect she gives and in turn, she is more willing to do things for me.

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/20/2012 11:09:54 AM

tameeks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abledfire

quote:

Make sure you don't punish her for not being able to obey.

Thank you for your post DesFIP (love the His Needs, Her Needs quote by the way). I completely understand that I shouldn't punish if she can't. I would never punish her for not doing the dishes because she can't, but will punish if she's able to do it, not doing anything else, and just doesn't want to, to the point she gets defiant. THAT warrants punishment. I just don't know what a suitable punishment would be. I tried spanking, but that turns her on, so therefore doesn't curb the behavior. I'm not the most imaginative person, and can't think of any punishments.

And I do admit that I could be more available to her and spend more time with her. For the longest time, I was under the false impression that being dominant meant that I told her what to do and that I didn't have to do anything. It didn't take long for a fight to break out, let me tell you. And I have since learned that she will be willing to do things I ask if I have given her needs priority first. In other words I am learning to earn the respect she gives and in turn, she is more willing to do things for me.

Never having been punished I can't speak from personal experience. I have however seen in many threads many ideas of punishments that I myself wouldn't like at all. Kneeling in the corner for a period of time, some even make their subs kneel on grains of rice, which I hear hurts like the dickens. Does she crave attention? You could punish her by taking your attention away if so. Take away t.v time if that's something she loves to do.

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/20/2012 2:31:54 PM

Karmastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sincelo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic

make sure she knows she has to freakin cook! what sub doesn't cook?

A chef's submissive

lol, touche :) you should join the ruin a wish thread:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1449123/mpage_128/tm.htm

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/20/2012 3:16:37 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abledfire
My wife loves being submissive. She loves objectified and dirty talk in the bedroom as well as various other kinks that I won't divulge without her consent, as they are personal.

I'd rephrase that for clarity. Your wife loves being a bottom. That is to say, she is into the kinky bedroom games.

We recently sat and talked for an extent (as we occasionally do) about my dominance. She wants me to be more dominant outside of the bedroom.
WARNING, DANGER WIL ROBINSON. So far, at least, I have yet to hear this one come up on CM where it was a winnable proposition. Typically, what this means is that she's got some fantasy in her head that she wants you to fulfill... essentially... she wants more bedroom games just outside the bedroom.

I understand completely.
Really? Good. Explain it to me then. What specifically does she want?

She has no idea (as she's a sub) what to suggest for me to do, and the things she suggests, she ends up disliking.
So to clarify, neither you or your wife have any clue what she wants. She clearly does not wish to be submissive outside the bedroom since it displeases her to do so. So what DOES she want?

So, if you're still with me, I am asking what I can do to be more dominant outside of the bedroom.
I could answer that question, but I don't think it'll help. She doesn't want you to be dominant in the way I'd think of it. In fact, she wants you to be submissive near as I can tell. In short, you've got a no-win situation. She wants you to appear dominant while you submit. In the way I conceive "dominance" you start inside your own head. You work out from there. Are you a capable leader with a demonstrated record of success? If so, build on that. If not, then start working on it. None of that is what she wants.

What punishments do you use on subs.
none. I expect my property to obey.

Either to invoke a new behaviour, or simply as a tease.
If I want to invoke a new behavior, I say something like, "From now on, I want you to think of situations like this one here in a new way...." Since Carol isn't a masochist, the "tease" part doesn't apply to us.

To use your example...
Your wife tells you she wants you to boss her around outside the bedroom.
You say, "Make me dinner, bitch!"
She gets all pouty.

Honestly, at that point would be where I'd be having a come to jesus meeting with her. I'd be wanting to know what sort of messed up games she thought she was going to play with me and why. I'd tell her to go chase her impossible fantasies somewhere else. I'd tell her that if she wants to obey then she should start now. If she wants to play games she needs to do it with someone else. Then I'd ask her flat out, "Is it your desire to obey or isn't it?"

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/20/2012 3:20:36 PM

Karmastic

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quote:

To use your example...
Your wife tells you she wants you to boss her around outside the bedroom.
You say, "Make me dinner, bitch!"
She gets all pouty.

Honestly, at that point would be where I'd be having a come to jesus meeting with her. I'd be wanting to know what sort of messed up games she thought she was going to play with me and why. I'd tell her to go chase her impossible fantasies somewhere else. I'd tell her that if she wants to obey then she should start now. If she wants to play games she needs to do it with someone else. Then I'd ask her flat out, "Is it your desire to obey or isn't it?"

that's the closest color i could find to gold, as in golden. :)

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/20/2012 4:27:32 PM

Byste

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I've never understood why an adult would need "punishment" (as in something physically painful) in order to comply with a reasonable request made within a d/s dynamic. Comply and our d/s continues; don't comply and it doesn't. I just don't get why it has to be more complicated than that.

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/23/2012 12:17:13 AM

AthenaSurrenders

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Ours isn't quite the same situation because we were D/s from the start, but we encountered some issues like this in the early days. I was a bugger for some of the same stuff you describe - I would express that I wanted to be submissive in all respects and then get frustrated by having to do chores on his schedule OR I would fail to meet my own entirely unrealistic expectations (perfect home, perfect grades, perfect diet whilst working two jobs) and get demoralised. It wasn't that I wasn't willing to do the 'boring' bits, but rather that I wanted to jump right in to everything all at once and I wasn't ready. I also tended to second guess myself and him all of the time - possibly due to the way past relationships have worked - I would be constantly fretting that I had made a mistake or made him cross when he was satisfied. For us punishment works because it stops me second guessing - I know without a doubt he will make his displeasure clear so I can hand that particular worry off to him.

Others have thoroughly covered this, but a real punishment must be truly aversive and so that's not going to be 'oh you're such a naughty slut bend over my lap this instant!'. It's going to be more effective to say 'no kinky play for you' or being sent away.

You perhaps need to sit and have serious talks - not on the spur of the moment but schedule it. Both go away and have a hard think about what your perfect D/s relationship looks like. Then have a hard think about what your life commitments will allow - most people can't have a slave naked in chains all day even if they wanted to (and most people wouldn't want to in the long term).

Ask yourself:
-Do you want a set list of rules or more of a casual 'do as you are told' arrangement?
-Do you want to micromanage? Do you want to be choosing food and clothes and determining bedtimes, which chores are done when, when she can use the bathroom etc? Or somewhere in between? If you do micromanage, do you have the time, energy and commitment to keep it up?
-Do you want to include any degree of ritual (such as you get served first at dinner, or she waits for you by the door on her knees when you come home or whatever works)?
-What division of labour is realistic? How much can you demand of her without her getting burned out?
-What happens when someone is sick or there is a family crisis?

Start small and build up. It's unlikely to work if you jump straight to giving her a rigorous schedule with huge amounts of extra responsibilities. Make sure there is fun as well as work. Make sure she can express her feelings and worries and always take them into account (even if ultimately you still decide to go ahead with an order). Make sure you are consistent. Whatever you decide regarding punishment, don't decide to come down like a ton of bricks today for an offense you will ignore tomorrow. Perhaps set aside some time every week to both talk about how things are going.

If you decide to use punishment, don't get it mixed up with teasing and play. It's fine to want to do both, but there needs to be a clear line. You don't want her to behave in ways you really dislike in order to get some kink - that defeats the object. You also don't want her to feel like she can never do right if you are just looking for excuses to punish to get your own kink on.

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/23/2012 1:28:48 AM

ResidentSadist

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I apologize in advance. I could even be very wrong, but the OP struck me this way so I am just gonna' tell it like I see it.

Your wife isn't submissive, she's in control. You need her permission to even talk anonymously with strangers on the internet about certain things. You are exploring "being a better Dom" at her wish and by her will. You are doing this for her not yourself. She may like bottoming but she's certainly not your submissive, you are hers. From what I see, you are not and do not want to be her Dominant. You don't even have the fortitude the get consistent meals out of her. Perhaps you should both agree that what she and you want is a "service top" and go study up on that? Otherwise she is gonna' continue wrapping you around her finger and making you jump through hoops until you are even more pussy whipped than you are now.

quote:

She has no idea (as she's a sub) what to suggest for me to do, and the things she suggests, she ends up disliking. (Example: "Tell me to get food ready if you're hungry." When I do, she complains about it, which causes me to get frustrated and eventually stop telling her).

As a Dominant, I can tell you that if my bitch complained about feeding me, her ass is out. Food and fucking are the two most old fashioned and basic services a good woman provides her man, vanilla or otherwise. Even a millionairess with chefs on staff takes pride in cooking for her man at some time. Is there a punishment, some training, some compensation for a woman that complains about feeding or fucking her man? I think not.

Dude, in my book, you're screwed. You have an evil wife that wants you to be her story book Dom but won't even cook without complaining? Seriously, grow a pair, get your basic shit in order and fix the apparently broken foundation in your relationship first. The despair in your OP is only drowned out by the sound of the pussy whip being cracked on your back. An example of my perspective about your foundation being broken would be these famous words:

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
~Robert Heinlein

Giving an untrained sub commands is foolish because they won't obey. Perhaps she should learn to submit before you waste your time trying to dom her. Try having her do the exercises in this book:

The Surrendered Wife : A Practical Guide to Finding Intimacy, Passion, and Peace with Your Man
by Laura Doyle
Surrendering is coming to terms with reality--that YOU are the only one YOU can change. Doyle gives practical tips and tools for replacing critical, controlling, or nagging behaviors with respect, trust and gratitude. A surrendered wife bravely and courageously commits to making a loving, nurturing marriage the most important goal of all -- and she will receive that and so much more. This book is easy to read, practical, and best of all it WORKS!

I am sure both of you are more tolerant than my gnarly old ass is and you'll do just fine. I am also sure that the majority of these mamby pamby replies hold some value compared to my brutal observations, but I have to tell it like I see it.

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/23/2012 3:16:17 PM

littlewonder

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quote:

The Surrendered Wife : A Practical Guide to Finding Intimacy, Passion, and Peace with Your Man
by Laura Doyle
Surrendering is coming to terms with reality--that YOU are the only one YOU can change. Doyle gives practical tips and tools for replacing critical, controlling, or nagging behaviors with respect, trust and gratitude. A surrendered wife bravely and courageously commits to making a loving, nurturing marriage the most important goal of all -- and she will receive that and so much more. This book is easy to read, practical, and best of all it WORKS!

Good call. One of my favorite books and imo a better book for bdsm people to read instead of Screw the Roses or any other bdsm book.

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 6/23/2012 4:24:11 PM

kalikshama

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Depends on your goals ;)

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 8/4/2012 10:03:23 PM

Silentrunner26

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Seems to me she you are letting her off easy . she wants you to dominate her but when you do she acts like she doesn't . No this is a woman who needs to be shown what her place is . Give her and order and if she gets sassy about it grab a hand full of hair get her on her knees and remind her she is a your sub and she will do as she is told . Bring her back up by her hair tell her what to do again and slap her ass as she goes to do it . Go buy some ping pong paddles and the next time she gets sassy bend her over and use one of the paddles on her ass .

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 8/4/2012 11:55:42 PM

SeekerMA

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First of all, you should talk with her, and see if you can form an agreement on how far beyond the bedroom you two want to engage in D/s, and the ways in which she can be disciplined/punished for not obeying. A punishment can be a spanking, corner time, writing lines, etc. Those are just a few of the ones that I've used, and I by no means have a very good imagination for this sort of thing.

That said, punishment is used only for punishment. It is not used for teasing, or fun. That is one potential problem with using spankings as a punishment, since you may want to use them just as a fun activity during your play. If you want to have your cake and eat it, it's possible to differentiate between types of spankings. Make one type of spanking, the play one, always over the knee, while the punishment one while bent over a certain object, or vice versa. Or always use a specific object for the punishment spankings, etc. The important thing is for the two to be distinguished in the sub's mind. As long as they are, the sub will respond to them entirely differently. So choose a punishment, and use it, but use it sparingly, and only when it is actually needed. And as everyone has already said, discuss all this with her first. Then once the framework exists, you will be free to be as dominant as you like within it without fearing you are overstepping your bounds. But judging by what you said, you would be well within your rights to punish her for disobeying you, particularly when she asked you to be more dominant. Maybe she just wants to be "tamed" or something. Some people are like that.

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 8/5/2012 12:03:44 AM

Kana

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quote:

I think I'll sit down with her and reopen the discussion. Explore what we both want and hope to get out of this.

Hell. Why discuss?
Tell her what you expect, then she either complies or doesn't.
If she does, then terrific. If not, then you are just playing games.

This is simple stuff-she either submits, or she don't...

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 8/5/2012 1:06:42 AM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

I think I'll sit down with her and reopen the discussion. Explore what we both want and hope to get out of this.

Hell. Why discuss?
Tell her what you expect, then she either complies or doesn't.
If she does, then terrific. If not, then you are just playing games.

This is simple stuff-she either submits, or she don't...

Except that according to him, she hasn't said she wants to be more submissive. She has said she wants him to be more dominant.
And from the way I read his post, she doesn't even mean more kinky dominant, but she wants him to take the lead more, to be the head of household, the man of the house... she wants him to be more dominant. She does not want to act as if he's more dominant on her own.

Now granted, she may be a brat whose glutting for punishment - in which case telling him to give her an ultimatum won't do them any good, all it will do is drive them further apart. And I'm guessing that his goal is to get closer to here, not to chastise her for what she is.

Or she may want him to take the lead more in a non-kinky way - in which case telling him to give her an ultimatum won't do them any good, because it will not teach him to actually take a more active leadership role in their relationship.

Or she may want him to do a little of kinky D/s play outside of the bedroom - in which case telling him to give her an ultimatum won't do them any good. Because it won't teach him how to mix kink and vanilla more into a dynamic sexlife that's pleasurable for the both of them.

If she wants him to take the lead more, and be more dominant, and he doesn't know how to do that because he's a laid back guy who isn't used to being in control, ultimatums won't do them any good either. Because then he's basically telling her: "I don't know how to do my part in this, therefore YOU need to be more submissive or else".
It doesn't teach him what to do, and tells her she's an awful person for not being able to submit in a vacuum. If she needs to submit in a vacuum she might as well submit to a lamppost... or a magic 8 ball.

In fact, the ONLY way it would be a good thing for him to pose her with the ultimatum "be more submissive" is if he KNOWS he's got his dominant side down completely, and she's a service submissive who needs the reassurance that he's on top of his game.
From his post it's clear he does not have his dominant side of things down completely, and that she's most likely not a service submissive at all.

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RE: Long read, but would apreciate a dom's help - 8/5/2012 3:16:31 AM

Salinedion

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It all sounds very Domestic Discipline to me. If you haven't, have a nice blog surf and see it it resonates -def sounds like your sumptuous wife is on that wave length. It's a dynamic that punishment-heavy and relatively punishment-rational. We started out there and ended up small cap Master/very plush and indulged slave/sub/pet.

We're 99% punishment free. I'll smack her ass a bit if I'm drilling her on something, but she's just too damn good. She does whatever I want. I pretty much do whatever she wants too. If dinner was a problem, we'd just make a peanut butter sandwich and have sex instead

She wants you to be the leader. That's more golden than a million spankings. 'Great to be you. 'Fabulous problem to have.

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