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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/10/2012 8:22:13 AM   
BenevolentM


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Here appear to be some useful facts provided by tazzygirl in post 70 in The ‘New Gestapo’? thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Is the Affordable Care Act really “the largest tax increase in the history of the world,” as Rush Limbaugh so grandiloquently put it? No. It’s not even the largest tax increase in the history of this country.

Or of the past 50 years. Or 20. It’s not even the biggest tax increase scheduled to take effect in the very near future. (That’s the expiration of the George W. Bush tax cuts slated for New Year’s Day.)



Fortunately, in its 2010 Long-Term Budget Outlook, the Congressional Budget Office resolved this problem, estimating the size of the Affordable Care Act’s tax increase in the year 2020, by which point all the taxes will be fully in effect. So how big is it? One half of one percent of GDP. That’s about the size of Bill Clinton’s 1993 tax increase or George Bush’s 1991 tax increase, and much smaller than Ronald Reagan’s 1982 tax increase.

Still, it’s a big tax increase. The money, though, is not coming from the source that many suspect — or even from one that Republicans necessarily oppose.

This conversation kicked up because the Supreme Court ruled the individual mandate a tax rather than a penalty and Republicans saw a political opening. But whatever you think of the mandate, it’s not a big contributor to the law’s new taxes. In 2019, the Affordable Care Act is expected to bring the federal government $104 billion in new revenue. The individual mandate accounts for about $7 billion of that. It’s not a rounding error, but it’s close.

So where does the money come from? The law’s biggest tax increase, at least in the first decade, is a 0.9 percent increase in the Medicare payroll tax paid by Americans earning more than $200,000 a year. Long-term, however, the largest increase — and certainly the most important one for the future of the health-care system — will be the excise tax on high-value health insurance plans, which begins in 2018.

Few phrases in the English language send readers fleeing as quickly as “excise tax on high-value health insurance plans.” So I’ll try to explain this as quickly and painlessly as possible. It’s a tax on unusually expensive, employer-provided health insurance plans. It begins at $10,200 for an individual plan and $27,500 for a family plan. Above that, there’s a 40 percent tax on the excess premiums. So if your plan is valued at $11,200, your employer will pay a 40 percent tax on the $1,000 surplus.

Over time, the thresholds will rise more slowly than health-care costs, which means the tax grows bigger. But the idea behind the tax isn’t to raise money: It’s to change behavior. The hope is that it will pressure employers and workers to choose less-expensive plans. If it works, additional tax revenue will be generated less by so-called “Cadillac” plans subject to the excise tax than by employers delivering more of their workers’ compensation in the form of taxable wages and less in the form of expensive health-care benefits.

This is actually an attempt to address a core Republican concern: The tax break for employer-provided health insurance, which Republicans believe encourages employers to spend too much on health care while also making it impossible for a health-care system not based on employers to emerge.

Don’t believe me when I say that’s high on the Republican agenda? In 2007, President George W. Bush announced the only major health-care initiative of his eight years in office other than the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill. The policy, which went nowhere, sought to “level the playing field for those who do not get health insurance through their job” by ending the unlimited tax break for employer-based insurance in favor of a $15,000 tax deduction for families and a $7,500 tax deduction for individuals to purchase health insurance.

In 2008, Republican presidential candidate John McCain offered a similar plan: He proposed ending the unlimited employer deduction and instead giving every family a $5,000 tax credit and every individual a $2,500 tax credit.

This year, Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney’s health-care proposal — although it’s so vague it hardly merits the term — gestures toward the same idea: His Web site says he will “end tax discrimination against the individual purchase of insurance.”

All of these proposals, including the Affordable Care Act’s excise tax, work in fundamentally the same way, by imposing limits on what is now an unlimited deduction for employer-provided health insurance, thereby encouraging employers to offer cheaper health plans and provide more compensation to workers in the form of taxable wages.

So when Republicans call the Affordable Care Act “the largest tax increase in the history of the world,” they’re not only wrongly supersizing the tax, they’re also attacking a reform that they’ve long supported themselves, in somewhat different configurations.

But President Obama’s campaign deserves the cheap shot. When McCain proposed his health-care plan in 2008, the Obama camp called it, yes, “the largest middle-class tax increase in history.”


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/08/the-most-important-tax-increase-in-obamacare/

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/10/2012 8:38:59 AM   
BenevolentM


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The problem with the information tazzygirl provided above is that there are things it does not account for. For example, I am a little skeptical, but not overwhelmingly of whether a 40% increase on expensive health care will influence behavior. If you can afford such expensive health care coverage to begin with, you can afford the 40% increase. However, more importantly it does not account for the indirect financial burden it will or could impose. What the Republicans are advancing is clearly hyperbole. The indirect financial burdens it could impose in theory are vague.

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/10/2012 9:24:49 AM   
BenevolentM


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It is kind of amazing to me the extent to which the Supreme Court was splitting hairs. It isn't a penalty, but it is a tax. The tax, however, is not to actually raise revenue, but to modify behavior. ObamaCare is not really supported by law, come on.

Since its intention is not to actually raise revenue, the amount of taxes it will raise directly is some what immaterial. The real cost is its indirect burden. Much of the indirect burden concerns something that people should purchase, but aren't because they are irresponsible. This will be true for some people, but not everyone, however. Beyond the obvious additional burden for providing services to people who cannot afford them, it is vague, for example, how it may increase the cost of medical insurance. Perhaps how it may decrease it is vague also. There is a lot of wait and see.

< Message edited by BenevolentM -- 7/10/2012 9:27:14 AM >

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/10/2012 10:19:57 AM   
BenevolentM


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Why is government inflexible? Off hand, I can think of two reasons.

1. The stability that inflexibility implies that with experience how it affects you is going to be reasonably well understood. Government becomes the predator you know.

2. People want to extract as much out of you as possible and government is run by people. The fact that government is a monopoly enables it to take advantage of you with great efficiency. As such it is often desirable to hamstring government.

It is clearly desirable for government to be flexible, but flexibility has side effects as well. It makes government potentially even more powerful. That power can express itself in ways that are not clearly understood. Therein lies the problem.

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/10/2012 10:29:21 AM   
BenevolentM


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I can only see one solution. We need to become more sophisticated so that we can better understand the implications of our actions.

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/10/2012 10:45:03 AM   
BenevolentM


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The Constitution describes a machine architecture that is now more than two centuries old. The same could also be said of the Bible. The intercession of God did not cease and God never revealed all. We continue to have much to learn from God. Unfortunately, the religious often commit blasphemy by claiming that they are God for God has revealed all to them. God did not reveal all to them. To know all is to be God. Only God is all knowing. Blasphemy is a two way street. What I described is how conservatives often commit blasphemy. I need not mention how liberals often commit blasphemy. They too are a bunch of know it alls. God calls us to humility.

If the Republican party makes war, is this a sign of obedience and humility or one of pride and arrogance? I've already caught the Republican party in a grievous sin against the Constitution. The Constitution presupposes that we work our problems out together with a sincere interest to get it right.

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/10/2012 10:56:56 AM   
BenevolentM


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To be more explicit. To regard the Bible as the Word of God and no other word as the Word of God is blasphemy. If the Bible is complete, then you are in possession of God, but God is not your possession.

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/10/2012 11:01:18 AM   
Moonhead


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Talking With Myself...

_____________________________

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/10/2012 11:03:11 AM   
mnottertail


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG1NrQYXjLU

Its in the implementation.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/10/2012 12:49:12 PM   
joether


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The more I read this guy's stuff, the more I feel like the Host of the Game Show....

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/11/2012 4:31:04 AM   
BenevolentM


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I cannot help feel that I am surrounded by dumbasses. Anyway, I have not spent a whole lot of time working on this particular problem. Why is government fucked?

Why government is rigid is also technical in that it is also something that has nothing to do with motives or design. The Ruler people paradigm has some problems. The Ruler has to communicate His will. This is a non-trivial problem in itself. The Ruler is usually absent. The Ruler is usually not all seeing, all knowing. Neither the people nor the ruler are going to be entirely sane typically, so on and so on. The study of government is known as political science.

Returning to taxes. What is it about taxes? Taxes is something that is taken from you. Government in turn gives back. The result is a closed loop, give and take. In other words the capacity for the government to raise taxes is a precedent for closed loops.

In general negative logic is not well behaved. This is especially important given how sloppy the legislative process is. So long as government only concerns itself with those special cases where negative logic is well behaved, there might not be a problem.

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/11/2012 6:54:51 AM   
mnottertail


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But, what if cement was lighter than air, would that form a governmental torus, instead of a closed loop?

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/11/2012 10:43:55 AM   
BenevolentM


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I recall watching a documentary Hitler's Children. I am not altogether unfamiliar with topics in political science. One of which is it is often the case that things progress much like the Hitler youth where most of the children are in the Hitler youth program and a time comes when you are forced. They close the loop. Most people have medical insurance and they closed the loop. Now you are to be forced to have medical insurance. Just food for thought. A hangman's noose is a closed loop. Is there rational cause for concern?

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Profile   Post #: 233
RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/11/2012 10:58:15 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But, what if cement was lighter than air, would that form a governmental torus, instead of a closed loop?


The real question is, Do we form an imagitron-perceptron pair? Since government gets to define what its words mean, cement can be lighter than air. I suppose in the general case we may be talking about topology and topological forms and which topological forms could serve as an acceptable basis for law.

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/11/2012 10:59:13 AM   
mnottertail


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But should we concern ourselves with a closed loop, or are we by the very nature of our musings closing the loop around our necks?

Or, if neckless, should we seek health insurance, to close our loop?

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/11/2012 11:19:15 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But should we concern ourselves with a closed loop, or are we by the very nature of our musings closing the loop around our necks?

Or, if neckless, should we seek health insurance, to close our loop?


Free speech is not protected so that we may utter inane things. It is protected so that we may utter profound things. The notion that we have a duty derives from a perceived need to close a loop.

Apart from those who are self-insured, I cannot relate to someone who can afford health insurance and does not have it.

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/11/2012 11:20:30 AM   
mnottertail


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then you are by your definitions uttering inane things derived from closed loops.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/11/2012 11:28:39 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

then you are by your definitions uttering inane things derived from closed loops.


What is the part that came before then?

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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/11/2012 11:30:06 AM   
mnottertail


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the torus, the pheonix, the tao, we are so immured with it, we shall not see it, or never know it, except thru a veil darkly......

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation - 7/11/2012 11:35:54 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

the torus, the pheonix, the tao, we are so immured with it, we shall not see it, or never know it, except thru a veil darkly......


Such is life.

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