PA cuts off those most in need (Full Version)

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erieangel -> PA cuts off those most in need (6/29/2012 10:15:47 PM)

http://goerie.com/article/20120630/NEWS06/306309940/Pa-Senate-OKs-budget-Corbett%27s-ethane-tax-credit

"HARRISBURG -- A budget plan attacked by Democrats as taking from the poor to give to the rich but defended by Republicans as appropriate and responsive to taxpayers and businesses won final legislative approval Friday before it went to Gov. Tom Corbett to become law for the next 12 months.

Meanwhile, Corbett won overwhelming approval from the state Senate for his biggest legislative priority: Tax breaks designed to entice the construction of an integrated petrochemical industry in Pennsylvania."

"taking from the poor" is the ending of general assistance, the welfare program that provides just $205 per month for a single person to live on. There are approximately 68,000-70,000 people in PA on general assistance. Many of these people are disabled and awaiting determination from social security. The general assistance program costs Pennsylvanians between $108 M- $126 M per year. Or about 0.01% of the total budget.
And yet, Corbett and legislative Republicans justified ending general assistance as a necessary step to balance the budget.

"give to the rich" is partly in response to $1.65 in tax credits Corbett wants to give to Shell Oil, a foreign company, to build a petrochemical refinery near Pittsburgh. But PA does not need to give credits to a refinery. We already have hundreds of gas wells just waiting to be drilled and don't tax the natural gas. Pipelines would have to built across the state to the refinery. And there are numerous plastics factories in western PA that would use their products. PA holds all the aces without offering huge tax credits.

In addition, the budget for the new fiscal, which begins July 1, would dump between $350M-$400M into reserves. So why couldn't they dump $200 M into reserves and keep general assistance?

"Sen. Pat Vance, R-Cumberland, said they did not do so with a "joyful heart."

I'd just bet he didn't.







subrob1967 -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/29/2012 11:10:30 PM)

Um, you do know there's a difference between a refinery and a well, right?

The refinery will provide quite a few good paying jobs, are you against good paying jobs?




Musicmystery -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/29/2012 11:32:35 PM)

Actually, the refinery would provide well paying jobs...

[:D]




erieangel -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 1:21:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Um, you do know there's a difference between a refinery and a well, right?

The refinery will provide quite a few good paying jobs, are you against good paying jobs?



Duh.

The natural gas wells are not being drilled because of a lack of a refinery nearby.

Now, why don't you respond to the main premise of the post which is the elimination of general assistance (an entire $205 per month) for some of PA's most neediest people.

Oh and btw, when a person is approved for social security benefits, whatever welfare payments they had received is payed back to the state, which lowers the overall cost of the general assistance program. And yes, everybody does pay back the money; it is taken directly out of their first social security check before they even see it.




joether -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 2:11:26 AM)

I wonder if Shell Oil will give good paying jobs to those 60K-80K citizens that are poor. Would help their current situation immensely. But, we all know its 'ok' to give goverment dollars to foreign companies rather than the US citizens, right?




thishereboi -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 3:58:53 AM)

I'm confused. Here you say PA doesn't need the refinery because you have hundreds of wells.

quote:

"give to the rich" is partly in response to $1.65 in tax credits Corbett wants to give to Shell Oil, a foreign company, to build a petrochemical refinery near Pittsburgh. But PA does not need to give credits to a refinery. We already have hundreds of gas wells just waiting to be drilled and don't tax the natural gas. Pipelines would have to built across the state to the refinery. And there are numerous plastics factories in western PA that would use their products. PA holds all the aces without offering huge tax credits.


But then you say "The natural gas wells are not being drilled because of a lack of a refinery nearby. "

So which is it? And how many jobs would a refinery produce?




Lucylastic -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 4:10:23 AM)

isnt there a difference between natural gas and Petrochemicals?




Hillwilliam -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 4:21:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

isnt there a difference between natural gas and Petrochemicals?

Technically, Luce, It's all petrochemicals. The only difference is the molecular weight of what you're extracting and the C:H ratio.




Lucylastic -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 4:33:32 AM)

they use the same refineries?
yeah, I admit, I thought they were different.




Hillwilliam -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 5:02:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

they use the same refineries?
yeah, I admit, I thought they were different.

Natural gas is primarily methane (CH4) with a mixture of longer chain but still gaseous hydrocarbons Ethane Butane, Propane, etc. It's typically used as-is for fuel and as a 'feedstock' for chemical processes.
Most of it is never refined but some does go there.




Lucylastic -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 5:06:59 AM)

Thanks:) nice to learn something "non political" for a change




tazzygirl -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 6:44:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

I wonder if Shell Oil will give good paying jobs to those 60K-80K citizens that are poor. Would help their current situation immensely. But, we all know its 'ok' to give goverment dollars to foreign companies rather than the US citizens, right?


Those 60 to 80K are on it because they are unable to work, medically.




Lucylastic -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 6:54:57 AM)

and now they get cut?? fucking sickening....




erieangel -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 6:55:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I'm confused. Here you say PA doesn't need the refinery because you have hundreds of wells.

quote:

"give to the rich" is partly in response to $1.65 in tax credits Corbett wants to give to Shell Oil, a foreign company, to build a petrochemical refinery near Pittsburgh. But PA does not need to give credits to a refinery. We already have hundreds of gas wells just waiting to be drilled and don't tax the natural gas. Pipelines would have to built across the state to the refinery. And there are numerous plastics factories in western PA that would use their products. PA holds all the aces without offering huge tax credits.


But then you say "The natural gas wells are not being drilled because of a lack of a refinery nearby. "

So which is it? And how many jobs would a refinery produce?


Re read what I wrote. I did not say we didn't say we didn't the refinery because of the natural gas wells. I said we don't need to be giving huge tax credits to any business to build a refinery because there are so many wells just waiting to be drilled. And we don't tax natural gas at any stage in PA (except at the consumer end, like on my Natural Fuel bill)




tazzygirl -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 7:02:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

and now they get cut?? fucking sickening....


Yes, I am one of them.




erieangel -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 7:03:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

and now they get cut?? fucking sickening....



Yep. Amazingly, a Republican legislator from Montgomery County introduced an amendment to save general assistance for certain classes of people particularly those currently awaiting social security determinations. The amendment failed. All anybody was able to do was to get a one-month extension so instead of ending July 1, GA will end on August 1, to give community homeless shelters and other charities time to prepare for the changes.

I envision the population being to way too large for the charities to handle, riots in the streets in our bigger cities and an explosion in our prison population (way to balance the budget there) It costs much more than $205 a month to keep a person locked up in prison.




Lucylastic -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 7:13:37 AM)

Bastard politicians. :( gah this makes me so mad I could spit nails




subrob1967 -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 7:28:47 AM)

FR,

Ok this has got to be the first time I've seen anyone complain about a foreign company OUTSOURCING jobs TO the US...

That being said, your source is pretty confusing, in one sentence it says,
quote:

The budget plan for the 2012-13 fiscal year that begins Sunday would increase spending by about 1.5 percent, largely for debt, pensions and health care for the poor, as well as to help fill a shortfall in the almost- finished fiscal year.


And in the very next sentence it says,
quote:

Meanwhile, it would cut business taxes by hundreds of millions of dollars, deposit around $350 million to $400 million into reserves and slash hundreds of millions of dollars from services for the poor, homeless, troubled and disabled.


Now THIS SOURCE says that the government found,
quote:

Over the past few years, the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare conducted a series of audits and uncovered many questionable practices among state contractors. Some providers of welfare services have taken advantage of unclear rules and regulations to nickel and dime Pennsylvania families. By misusing funds meant for the truly needy, these providers contribute to today's bloated welfare budget, the single largest state General Fund expenditure. Shifting to a fee-for-service payment instead of reimbursing all provider expenses would prevent waste and abuse, freeing up tax dollars and reducing the number of truly needy Pennsylvanians waiting for help.


Over two years, training provider KRA charged more than $1.8 million in unsubstantiated or unidentified expenses to the Department of Public Welfare.
KRA, a for-profit company, also used taxpayer money to send 130 people on a sunset dinner cruise and expensed an open bar, buffet and amusement package at adult amusement restaurant Dave & Buster's for 90 people. KRA terminated its contract during the audit process.3 Total cost to taxpayers: $50,773.
Western PA Child Care, LLC charged $84,000 for limousine service to an NCAA basketball game and King of Prussia Mall, a custom-made suit for an executive, a chartered fishing trip and other related party expenses.
WPCC is a for-profit company with government contracts to provide housing and services for juvenile delinquents.
WPCC opened in 2005 under the ownership of Robert Powell, who was convicted for concealing a felony in the "kids for cash" scandal in 2009, and George Zappala, who bought Powell's WPCC shares in 2008.
Shortly after executives enjoyed these perks, WPCC experienced cash flow problems. In early 2008, the facility received shut-off notices from utility providers, incurred late fees from vendors and lost required court documents for juvenile residents.4
The executive director of It Takes a Village Childcare and Learning Center, Inc. charged taxpayers for undocumented expenses and took 28 percent of the organization's state contract, totaling $173,077.
The executive director received about $139,000 in salary and collected $34,432 in non-salary payments—including fringe benefits, undocumented lease expenses, travel, insurance, and cell phone reimbursements—over two years.
A check for $5,022 to Staples could not be supported since the receipts totaled only $399. When auditors asked to see the equipment supposedly purchased, they were told it had broken and been discarded.
The audit recommended the organization pay back $44,926, but officials negotiated a repayment of $24,000.5 Total tax dollar waste: $20,926.
Taxpayers paid twice for mortgages on the same properties, and paid rent for the same homes, totaling more than $1,000,000 in duplicated payments.6
Taxpayers reimbursed Lynch Homes for mortgage payments and then paid a usage fee, like rent, of 8 percent for homes used to provide community-based services to the intellectually and developmentally disabled. Lynch was also receiving reimbursements for maintenance on the homes.7
In 2011, Lynch Homes sold properties to provider Kencrest. Due to a quirk in the welfare department's reimbursement system, taxpayers are on the hook again to pay the new mortgages Kencrest took out to purchase the properties from Lynch Homes.8
Providers serving the intellectually disabled in Pennsylvania used thousands of taxpayer dollars for unnecessary luxury goods.
Supportive Concepts for Families, Inc. spent $73,152 leasing luxury vehicles, including an Acura MDX for $689 a month and an Acura RL for two years at $835 a month. SCFF could have purchased four Chevy Impalas for the cost of leasing one Acura RL.9
The Department of Public Welfare determined that $900,000 of a $3.6 million severance package for the CEO of a mental health and intellectual disabilities service provider was inappropriately invested taxpayer funds.
Allegheny Valley School awarded its former CEO a severance package taken from a taxpayer-funded account for capital costs. Program regulations prohibit providers from using interest (in this case $900,000) for non-capital expenses. The transfer occurred while AVS was merging with another provider, Northwest Human Services.
After the audit uncovered this misuse of funds, NHS reimbursed the account.10

Source

Now who are we to believe? On one hand we have the oh so heartbreaking story written by someone at the AP, or we can believe there is rampant corruption and wasteful spending found by the Commonwealth's Auditors.

As always there's two sides to each story, one is a tale of the down trodden, starving masses who have nowhere else to turn. The other is a tale of fiscal responsibility, based in the real world where money doesn't grow on trees, and the people realize that the gravy train went off the proverbial rails due to fraud and wasteful spending.

Welcome to the real world Erie.




erieangel -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 7:37:14 AM)

Same here. I happen to have 1 client on GA, another who has been trying to get on GA (even though he'd already applied for social security, he was told he had to had to have a disability form signed by his doctor). And that guy just returned to Erie Co from a 4 year stay at an adolescent mental health facility. Being brand new to Erie Co after 4 years, he didn't have a doctor, so had to get one and his appointment isn't until 2 weeks from now. Instead of having the disability form signed, he might be better off looking for a part-job and hoping it doesn't hurt his chances of getting SSI. The real bitch of that situation is he's still in high school!! He has to pay rent, other living expenses, wants to graduate from high school (he doesn't want to have to get his GED and taking that test has been talked about, he told me), and now it looks like he's going to hold down a job on top of that because he's 18 and his parents will give him zero support.




Lucylastic -> RE: PA cuts off those most in need (6/30/2012 7:49:03 AM)

Just when you think you couldnt feel more disgust at a person, they come along just to prove you wrong




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