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Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man?


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Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 8:10:45 AM   
marshalp


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Status: offline 		If it’s degrading to feminize a man (e.g. makeup, panties, bra, skirt/dress), is it also degrading to masculinize a woman? Is there a way to do it in a degrading way? Or is the idea of “feminine == inferior” so ingrained in our society that it only works one way?




< Message edited by marshalp -- 7/2/2012 8:12:06 AM >
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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 8:40:51 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
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Status: offline 		There is probably no way to answer this while being politically correct but I'll take a stab.

Feminization is done for several reasons. One is humiliation. Note that there are also men who get off on being dressed as women (crossdressers) and those who are legitimately transgender who dress as women because they feel more comfortable presenting as female than as male.

Needless to say, many Dominas feel that it is insulting to them to consider it humiliating to feminize.

I haven't heard of anyone masculinizing a woman (aside from a ridiculous scene in 9-1/2 Weeks). I've know women who masculinized themselves as butches. That was a gender issue in that they felt more comfortable presenting as such and was not done for humiliation.

I don't actually think it's a case of "feminine = inferior" as much as it is of taking away masculinity when feminizing. Note that transgenders don't feminize to take away masculinity as much as to add femininity.

This opinion is that of DarkSteven, and collarme and its other posters do not necessarily endorse it in full or in part.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 8:54:35 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		A great answer, DS.

From my experience with male subs, it is almost always the *s-type* who thinks being feminized is humiliating. I am talking those male subs who, although they may enjoy a bit of CD, see themselves as totally male, straight, and having no desire to actually be female.

The sissy boy types or the bi, bi-curious, the ones who want to be *forced* to perform with a male, in my mind most all these types have some issues in terms of seeing their female characteristics as inferior. Note I am not saying that many don't manage to resolve these issues. Some males are perfectly fine with having some highly female characteristics. In fact, they make it work for them.

Then there are those poor souls who feel they are females stuck in a male body. They LOVE to be feminized, and it's not humiliating at all to them. They want and need someone willing to help them appear more feminine.

I personally do not use feminization as a form of humiliation, since I don't see being female as being inferior. I do use it as a way to see if someone is willing to do what *I* want, whether they like it or not, if that makes sense?

Anyway, this is my take on it.




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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 9:13:55 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		My hackles rise in a hurry at the feminine = inferior fetishists. What is closer to the truth for many is that feminine = transgressive. It's not "okay" for a man to wear lacy things anymore, or jewellery, or makeup, or all manner of things that would have been just fine a few hundred years ago in certain social circles. Men don't get to do "pretty" as we define it now. Doing all those things is daring, going against the expected norm, taboo. So it's fun.

Being seen like that in public? Scary/exciting. I have gone shopping with men into that fetish, just SHOPPING with them dressed normally and of course shopping for me (yeah right). Terror, excitement, embarassment... it was a heady mix for them.



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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 9:25:43 AM   
marshalp


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Status: offline 		@LadyHib... yes i know and am sorry for the provocative remark "feminine = inferior"... but the question remains... Why does the society (o mainly sub males) think that feminine = transgressive...
What changed in the last few hundred years... that pretty (feminine) became a taboo for men?

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 9:31:08 AM   
ProlificNeeds


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Status: offline 		Humiliation is about 'taking away'. If I take away a man's masculinity and then taunt him for it. Feminization can be used as a means to an end, but I don;t see how the reverse isn't true. If you strip away the femininity of a woman and then taunt her for it, it's pretty much in the same ballpark, as far as humiliation tactics go.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 9:45:34 AM   
igor2003


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Status: offline 		I think that it actually is pretty much a one-way thing with it being more humiliating to feminize a man than to masculinize ( I don't think those are really words, but you know what I mean) a woman.


Think about the ways society pushes men to be masculine. Little boys are told to "be a man", "man up", "cowboy up", "don't cry", "don't be a sissy", and many other things that make it look weak and less manly if they don't practice the "art" of being a man. Then, when "forced" to go outside of the guidelines that he has been subjected to for years it becomes a humiliation and he feels like less of a man.


Girls, on the other hand, especially in the last 100-150 years, have steadily been given the okay to be more masculine. Long ago it was considered almost an outrage for a woman to be seen in anything but a dress. In many (most?) areas it is now much more common to see women in slacks, jeans, and pantsuits than in skirts and dresses. Things like bra burning were done to help women escape their traditional feminine roles. The struggle for "equality" in many every-day roles has given women the freedom to participate in many formerly "masculine" pursuits, including the way they dress, without feeling negative pressure from society, therefore it normally isn't a "humiliating" experience to them to dress more like a man.


As far as feminine = inferior? No way. It is not the femininity that is humiliating, but rather the stripping away of what the male has been told is "normal" for so many years. It makes him feel vulnerable and self-consious, much like one man being naked in a room of clothed women. Being naked, in and of itself, is not humiliating, and being feminine, in and of itself, is not inferior.


Just my opinion.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 10:06:22 AM   
marshalp


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Status: offline 		Thanks Igor... that was well written. I completely agree with the social conditioning of male babies to be more 'macho'... while female babies do not have that much pressure...

That makes me think... aren't we continuing the same trend when Dommes encourage the the feeling of embarrassment/humiliation when sub males are 'feminized'? Hey i love the feel of soft panties... should i be embarrassed for that??? Or does it make me a cross-dresser???

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 10:45:38 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I don't do humiliation play, I don't crossdress anyone that I am involved with (though I love to play dress up and love shopping and hanging with cds). Did you ever see that Ed Wood film, Glen or Glenda? Ed Wood was the quintissential crossdresser, all about the STUFF and the tactile and the prettypretty. There's a docco about it called "Look Back in Angora". Brilliant.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 10:55:45 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I don't actually think it's a case of "feminine = inferior" as much as it is of taking away masculinity when feminizing.


I remember making the same point, once, but to general bafflement and scorn. Perhaps it was the way I said it. ;-)

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 10:57:38 AM   
PeonForHer


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If malesubs get off on being made to look ridiculous and un-masculine, why don't their Dommes just force them to dress like Americans?



Only joking. I'm here all week, worse luck for the rest of you.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 11:02:48 AM   
marshalp


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Status: offline 		PFH... actually many subs i know start off looking ridiculous & sloppy... a dress will only make them look better (cleaner)...

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 11:11:15 AM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
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From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

My hackles rise in a hurry at the feminine = inferior fetishists.

Guys in women's clothes just don't do it for me. BUT I can see a trans person dressing femmey, they identify as female. I can see a guy dressing femmey because he feels good in it. I enjoy visiting with CDs and so on sometimes. Just not being in a relationship with one.

What really irks me is these guys who want be force femmed and, when I ask them what they like about it, they say the humiliation. There's no way I'm going to dress a guy as a woman and then humiliate him for it. I don't think being female is less than and some guy wanting be dressed femmey and then humiliated for it just rubs me the wrong way.

NBMG

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 12:27:26 PM   
Rochsub2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marshalp

If it’s degrading to feminize a man (e.g. makeup, panties, bra, skirt/dress), is it also degrading to masculinize a woman? Is there a way to do it in a degrading way? Or is the idea of “feminine == inferior” so ingrained in our society that it only works one way?



Sigh.

This same topic comes up repeatedly, and the same women get bent out of shape over the whole "feminine=inferior" thing.

Frankly, I think it's possible to feel degraded by feminization without feeling that female=inferior. As an example, would your grandfather go out in public wearing a dress? How about your dad? Probably not. Their reluctance to wear women's clothing has NOTHING to do with thinking that women are inferior. It's simply a matter of wanting to conform to societal norms. Nothing more, and nothing less. Anyone who can't understand this is obviously wearing blinders.

And yes, it is possible to masculinize a woman. Simple dress her up in very male attire (e.g. jeans, work boots, flannel shirt with the sleeves rolled up, etc.), then masculinize her facial features. This may require cutting her hair, having her wear a fake mustache and/or beard, and having her talk in a deeper voice than normal.

I've seen this done to female subs before. I've heard of someone masculinizing a female sub and then sending her into a bar to "pick up chicks".

As far as I could tell, the female subs felt both masculinized and humiliated. But I'm not offended by this, despite being a man. I completely understand how being taken out of your normal gender identity can be a form of humiliation play for some.

Sure, there may be the occasional jerk who does see it as "feminine=inferior". But I seldom come across this type of sexist approach. Instead, what I see much more often are men who actually WANT to get in touch with their feminine side, but they're afraid to say so. They're the ones who beg to be "forced" to dress in women's clothes, or be "forced" to suck another man's cock.

If they were actually saying that feminine=inferior, then why would they be trying so hard to be feminized?

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 3:39:35 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Ever actually worked with those men, Roch? You haven't, have you?

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 5:40:52 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marshalp

If it’s degrading to feminize a man (e.g. makeup, panties, bra, skirt/dress), is it also degrading to masculinize a woman? Is there a way to do it in a degrading way? Or is the idea of “feminine == inferior” so ingrained in our society that it only works one way?



Lemme see here.....

Women wear men's clothing daily....no prob.

Anderson Cooper announces he's gay and thousands of Yahoo commenter's qualify their comments with "I don't have anything against gays but....I bet he wears dresses..."

Men (who love this thing) love being degraded (not at all related to the above regards AC)....it's a sexual thrill. Few (some) women get off on this.

For those that do....yeeeehaaah....all good. For those that don't....yeeeehaaah....all good.

Who gives a fuck?


< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 7/2/2012 5:41:43 PM >

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 6:14:52 PM   
evesgrden


Posts: 597
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Status: offline 		Humiliation is idiosyncratic. One gay man might find it humiliating to be feminized while another revels in it. Same thing with straight men. One could do something similar to some women by not letting them shave under their arms or shave their legs. Draw in a convincing mustache or beard. Draw in heavier eyebrows. Dress them and pad their clothing so that they do not have traditional feminine curves in all the right places. Some women will feel mortified, some will be indifferent and amused that their dominant is amused by it, others might get off on it or find it great fun.

What is humiliating for one, is humiliating for one.

So I think to answer the question of the OP, you have to consider what feminizing a man does.. to "some" men, and only some. If as a man you cherish your masculinity, or have received attention for it, and then it is taken away in some sense, then you are indeed less than you were before. Just like the woman who is "defeminized" is now feeling "less than".

It's not that feminine is less than masculine, or masculine is less than feminine. It's only an issue if things that make you feel good about yourself are taken away from you. Those men who get off on being feminized are not humiliated...they just like it. Those men who feel threatened by not looking as masculine as they can, are indeed humiliated by being feminized.

geeze that felt very convoluted to say

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 6:41:10 PM   
vincentML


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Aside from humiliation there might be another dynamic to consider: the loss of personal power or the increase of powerlessness. Haven't we as a culture identified women as the "weaker sex?" Perhaps guys who wish to be dollified or forced to perform bi are fantasizing their submission through helplessness. Maybe I am splitting (pubic) hairs but I'm not convinced that feminization necessarily = women are inferior, especially if the guy is asking a woman to dominate him as a her.

Another dynamic to consider is fetish addiction. I have heard that CDs are wont to toss away all their feminine clothing in a futile attempt to get loose of the addiction.

Please comment

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 6:51:23 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I have known CDs who "purge" all their feminine clothing and accouterments in an attempt to stop what they feel is a horrible dirty dark secret. Most of these men consider themselves straight, but they love to dress up as a female. Some just do clothes, others really get into it.

There is usually no attempt to "pass" in public as a female. Most would be horribly ashamed if they were caught doing this.

Fortunately there are some great support groups for CDs.

I have know some of these types who want a fem dom to control when and how they dress. Yes, it's very much a fetish, and they are very much looking for a fetish delivery system. Generally this type would be horrified to be humiliated for dressing. Part of what they are doing by involving a female is to attempt to feel better about it, to get some acceptance.

Now this is my take on a small spectrum of CDs, based on personal experience.







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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/2/2012 7:14:33 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I have known CDs who "purge" all their feminine clothing and accouterments in an attempt to stop what they feel is a horrible dirty dark secret. Most of these men consider themselves straight, but they love to dress up as a female. Some just do clothes, others really get into it.

There is usually no attempt to "pass" in public as a female. Most would be horribly ashamed if they were caught doing this.

Fortunately there are some great support groups for CDs.

I have know some of these types who want a fem dom to control when and how they dress. Yes, it's very much a fetish, and they are very much looking for a fetish delivery system. Generally this type would be horrified to be humiliated for dressing. Part of what they are doing by involving a female is to attempt to feel better about it, to get some acceptance.

Now this is my take on a small spectrum of CDs, based on personal experience.



I witnessed a television program that documented a support group involving their wives. One of the wives, at least, was mortified and has probably since filed for divorce. I see it as a 'tragic' compulsion . . tragic because it is a compulsion. Am I wrong?

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