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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/3/2012 5:10:54 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		No vincent, I do not think you are wrong. There are many, many men who cross dress in secret. It is the great big secret of their life. The very idea of anyone finding out they do this would put them in a panic.

They often acquire a girlfriend or a wife and never even consider telling them they cross dress. They are sure they will be rejected.

These are the kinds who purge, thinking if they get rid of their clothes they will get rid of their desires. These are the ones who are so conflicted about what they do, that yes, it does become a compulsion.

It moves far beyond a fetish and becomes as you say addictive.

There are some who manage to resolve these issues, who find some support (often from wives or g/fs,) and who manage to make this a part of their lives w/o it having to be a big dirty secret. It is my opinion this type is much less likely to be compulsive and let it become addicting.

Cross dressing CAN go from being a big secret to something enjoyable that you share with the female in your life.

I have helped some make this step, referred others to support groups, and sometimes just plain listened.

Now, it is my opinion when a CD wants to "pass" as a female in public, now you are speaking of someone who first, has brought some resolution to their cross dressing, and second, has accepted that they have a female side that needs to be brought out to play. Some will want to do this on occasion, others much more often, some on a permanent basis, it varies according to the individual.



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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/3/2012 7:32:02 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

These are the kinds who purge, thinking if they get rid of their clothes they will get rid of their desires. These are the ones who are so conflicted about what they do, that yes, it does become a compulsion.

It moves far beyond a fetish and becomes as you say addictive.


We also know a CD who cycles through this.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/3/2012 10:13:12 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

These are the kinds who purge, thinking if they get rid of their clothes they will get rid of their desires. These are the ones who are so conflicted about what they do, that yes, it does become a compulsion.


Sad, init?

Thank you, Chatte, for your informative comments.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/3/2012 11:36:41 AM   
Rochsub2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

geeze that felt very convoluted to say



Not convoluted at all. In fact, I thought you were right on target. Humiliation is a very personal thing.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/3/2012 11:39:04 AM   
wittynamehere


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marshalp
If it’s degrading to feminize a man (e.g. makeup, panties, bra, skirt/dress), is it also degrading to masculinize a woman?

It depends on the individual. Some men aren't humiliated by this, some are. Some women aren't humiliated by it, some are.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/3/2012 7:25:00 PM   
Kratos230


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Status: offline 		The way I see it,

Society see mens as having a binary sexuality. "Normal" men are supposed to be simple, we expect them to be hard and love fucking women in any hole possible. It's supposed to be all about his dick. A man gets hard, he use something to jerk off, he ejaculate then go to sleep.

Women on the other hand are seen as being more complex sexually, as having a more "abstract" feeling of pleasure. A "normal" woman must explore her body and find ways to bring herself to pleasure. We expect women to be open emotionnally, to be open to exploration and variety. It's okay for a girl to go to a sex shop. Women can dress and be sexy in a very large variety of way. The female body as a whole is also seen as the perfect symbol for sexuality, and we developped all kind of clothings that tries to give the impression that this body is a gift to unwrap. In the sexual area, everything is more open and accepted for women in our society.

Women can be bisexual, it's okay, it kind of doesn't count and it doesn't define them. We see two girl kissing, we think that they may still enjoy sex with men. We don't necessarily consider them lesbians.

On the other hand, men are either straight or gay. (for society). If you see two guys kissing each other, you really assume that they are gay, you assume that they really have only interest in men. It's "behaving as an homosexual" and not "behaving like a bisexual person".

---

So basically, about humiliation and feminization. I guess its way more "easy" to humiliate a man sexually, because the "sexual norm" for them is very specific and very rigid. It's easy to "cross a boundary you are not supposed to cross as a normal straight man" because there is boundaries EVERYWHERE for them. Almost everything is taboo. So its kind of easy to go to places where their "male identity is challenged".

On the other hand, for women and sexuality, there is way more "room" for them as far as normality goes. You can play on a very wide sexual spectrum and not really affect their identity as a "normal woman". The really big taboo for girls, and even then I don't think its as strong as the one for guys, is being "too easy", being a "slut", loving sex too much. It's considered dirty. So when you want to humiliate a girl, you make them act as a "slut", as a "always horny girl".

But I guess even creating a "slut" humiliation is harder because its a more abstract concept. When exactly it become "too much", when does "loving sex" become "loving it too much". It's kind of a subjective statement. On the other hand, making a guy wear panties or suck a cock, those are kind of objective and very factual. There is no "doubt", a guy doing that is crossing the norm big time.


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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/4/2012 12:49:39 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		And "cycle" is precisely the correct term for what happens. It is very much a binge and purge cycle, with times they dress in secret, the compulsion often increasing to the point they binge. Then they purge all female clothes and accouterments, and do not dress at all for a time (which varies by the individual).

But it is *only* a matter of time before they pick out that first piece of female lingerie or clothing, and they they are back on the merry go round.

Sadly, I know people who are on their 10th or 12th cycle of this. Obviously at this point, they are hugely addicted (JMO).



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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/4/2012 6:02:24 AM   
evesgrden


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Status: offline 		Hi Vincent

I may be splitting hairs too, but the loss of power is what results in those circumstances which permit/promote humiliation. Many folks get off on the feeling powerlessness and the cd aspect is just one manifestation of that. The degree of degradation directly relates to how meaningful cd/objectification/role play whatever is to the submissive. The greater the issue psychologically, the greater the degradation. I think it's also worth keeping in mind that for some this can be cathartic, and for others it can traumatically painful.

As a dominant you have to really know your submissive, and as a submissive, you have to really know yourself. You never know when you might be inadvertently opening a pandora's box.

I don't think it has anything to do with one sex being inferior to another, other than it can make the submissive feel inferior i.e., less than the way they view themselves with respect to their given sex, in this case masculinity (something that many/most men hold quite dear).

(edited for grammar since I'm my own Grammar Nazi, but I'm still hiding from the Comma Cops)

< Message edited by evesgrden -- 7/4/2012 6:36:58 AM >

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/4/2012 9:34:44 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		Wise words, Eve.

I was suggesting the powerlessness as an alternative dynamic to humiliation. I don't think being CD driven is necessary and I mentioned the woman = inferior only because it is a cultural stereotype of the sort that often drives fetish fantasies. I can imagine a gay male sub feeling that powerlessness and reveling in it while he is being bent over and used/abused.

On the other hand I wonder how many Dommes enjoy the Power that comes with the play. I would guess they do otherwise they would not take part. I know one lady who delights in taking her submissive to an adult movie theatre so she can direct him giving BJs in the darkened room to a line of guys, choosing the recipients. They both delight in her power. Neither feels that humiliation is a factor as much as control.

I understand your point, however, that loss of power may be, is probably a necessary side dish to humiliation.

Happy 4th

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/4/2012 9:41:48 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

So basically, about humiliation and feminization. I guess its way more "easy" to humiliate a man sexually, because the "sexual norm" for them is very specific and very rigid. It's easy to "cross a boundary you are not supposed to cross as a normal straight man" because there is boundaries EVERYWHERE for them. Almost everything is taboo. So its kind of easy to go to places where their "male identity is challenged".

On the other hand, for women and sexuality, there is way more "room" for them as far as normality goes. You can play on a very wide sexual spectrum and not really affect their identity as a "normal woman". The really big taboo for girls, and even then I don't think its as strong as the one for guys, is being "too easy", being a "slut", loving sex too much. It's considered dirty. So when you want to humiliate a girl, you make them act as a "slut", as a "always horny girl".


Very perceptive. Especially your comments about the binary sexuality culturally imposed on men.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/4/2012 6:29:28 PM   
FrostedFlake


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From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline 		Clothes make the man, and can unmake him in even more dramatic fashion.

Sorry about the pun.

It was clothes that killed Jimi Hendrix. Had he been wearing a suit, the ambulance attendants would have stopped, gotten in the back, rolled him over. gotten puke on themselves, and Jimi would have been fine. But he was wearing those clothes. And they were chosen specifically to make him stand out. And men are not supposed to. Try jeans and a tee at a board meeting. Not gonna happen. Out on ear. This is JUST what happened to Jimi. Got thrown off the planet, informally, because of his clothes. Consider the effect should a gal dress her man up and then send him out for a quart of milk. This, not the alleged inferiority of the better looking gender, is where the 'humiliation' comes in.

Note ; Comment is general. Not intended to cover every occasion or individual.

< Message edited by FrostedFlake -- 7/4/2012 6:32:47 PM >

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/5/2012 4:33:51 AM   
WestBaySlave


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Status: offline 		While I don't think that feminization necessarily indicates the individual involved personally sees women as less, I do feel that it highlights that a male-dominant, female-submissive streak is a very strong undercurrent in society up to today, quite aside from individuals' chosen roles. We absorb culture and it affects our preferences even beyond what we think of as correct or not.

All put in a more round-about way: think of where gender lines are drawn, in any area. The man loses status when he goes into female territory; women going into male spaces either gain status or have no change in status. A man in women's clothes is at best seen as humorous and at worst, as deeply abhorrent; a woman in man's clothes for the most part is neutral, occasionally "unsexy" at worst.

Taking all BDSM and fetish out of it, if you put the average man in frilly skirt and blouse he would likely feel embarrassed according to cultural norms. It's difficult to think of an item of male clothing that could have the same effect on women - even a masculine caricature of army boots, jeans, and a leather jacket seems, well, pretty normal. This is why there is a huge amount of men who want to be humiliated "as women" but one never encounters women seeking humiliation by being made manly.

On a secondary level, many women's clothes make the person wearing them less physically capable. High heels, pencil skirts, even easily-smudged make up can add into the appeal of someone wanting to feel vulnerable in front of another ( or others in general ).


< Message edited by WestBaySlave -- 7/5/2012 4:35:01 AM >

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/5/2012 6:46:25 AM   
Rochsub2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave

On a secondary level, many women's clothes make the person wearing them less physically capable. High heels, pencil skirts, even easily-smudged make up can add into the appeal of someone wanting to feel vulnerable.......



Excellent point! I've always wondered how women manage to walk around in heels all day. My feet would be killing me after the first 5 minutes. Bras seem like they'd hurt. Thongs would give me a wedgie. I'd be afraid that I was going to get a run in my stockings anytime I made a sudden move. Purses seem like they'd get heavy after carrying them for hours. It seems like it would be difficult to move in some skirts and dresses (they seem like they'd limit your range of motion). And lets not even discuss all of the things that women have to do to keep their hair looking nice.

It's like society has developed a cunningly devised plan to hold women back by arming them with highly uncomfortable clothing and accessories.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 7/5/2012 6:47:21 AM >

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/5/2012 7:42:08 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marshalp

If it’s degrading to feminize a man (e.g. makeup, panties, bra, skirt/dress), is it also degrading to masculinize a woman? Is there a way to do it in a degrading way? Or is the idea of “feminine == inferior” so ingrained in our society that it only works one way?


Here's an objective way to look at the issue. There is a wedding with 100 guests scheduled to be in attendance. Would you feel comfortable going there cross dressed? If you had a date, how would that affect her?

A cross dressed male gets crushed in public in the wrong setting. Many women are extremely hostile to cross dressers, as are men. These are just basic facts.

When a man cross dresses, he's going "out there" alone -- without any support and is engaging in "unnatural urges."

HBO recently ran a show on You Tube "stars," one of whom was a guy named Chris Crocker from Tennessee who made videos of himself impersonating Brittany Spears. He received death threats and voluminous hate mail / comments.

A transgender woman here in BALTO was nearly beaten to death by another woman for using the woman's rest room.

What's at stake for male CDs is much more than degradation and humiliation -- one's whole reputation in the community could be ruined if outed. My secondary partner works in a middle school, one of the young boys there was a CD, and he was a target of beatings and persecution by the other children. He had to drop out of the school.

All in all, its awkward for most males to be feminine. Additionally, the adornment of female clothing on a masculine or less than pretty male (say overweight and hairy) is very akin to looking like a bad circus clown.

Used constructively in BDSM, CDing is a form of mobile bondage, control, and enforced fetishism. The activity does not make any F's top ten list of desires within BDSM, so guys looking for a partner are really paddling upstream. Having a desire to do something others don't like, don't value, and have basic antipathies for is a dangerous jungle of vulnerabilities, rejections, and social isolation.

A common pattern here on the CMMB is to attribute the problems a CD has to his own desires. If he was different, he could more likely attract a F partner.

In sum the reasons why it is degrading and humiliating are: (1) bigotry; (2) social norms; (3) male awkwardness; and (4) the utter danger of being outed or exposed. This really has nothing to do with "feminine =s inferior." A woman wearing pants does not advance her in society b/c "men are superior," she's just a woman wearing pants. Others just don't have a problem with it.


< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/5/2012 8:31:12 AM >

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/5/2012 9:51:22 AM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

What's at stake for male CDs is much more than degradation and humiliation -- one's whole reputation in the community could be ruined if outed.



^THIS^

Is something that we have to fight. The concept that expressing gender in society is somehow bad, wrong, deviant, dangerous, or could ruin -anything-.

Certainly there are elements of society that view gender expression beyond birth-biological-binary in those negative terms. And it is true that some of those same elements in society are responsible for unspeakable violence against people expressing gender.

Welcome to the jungle, "let's be careful out there."

But reputation is another matter. Worrying about what people are going to "think, say, or do" about you is crazy-making. No, really, trust me on this one - from past and current experience...total crazy-making. How does expressing gender in any way affect your ability to do your job, live your life responsibly, pay your taxes, walk your dog, etc.?

The sense of shame comes not from "them"...it comes from inside -us-. The bigotry that can be directed at us has power only if we acknowledge it, and embrace it, and take it into ourselves.

This can be a really hard reality to come to grips with, let alone embrace. It is one thing to hear someone make a snide comment about you expressing gender, it is another to lose your job, place to live, or face physical violence. How do you keep yourself separate from it so that it does not eat you from the inside? Aye, that's the rub!

How much are you willing to risk/lose for the opportunity to be authentic in your own life? You want to talk about humiliation/degradation - take it out of the bedroom/dungeon and see the real world out there.

I believe it essential however, that we be able to purge that sense of "wrong" over something that is an essential part of our internal sense of "self".

It may mean that we have to give up or lose some things like friends, family, jobs, etc.

It certainly must mean that we give up and lose that sense that who we are is bad, wrong, or in any way deviant.

Much easier to say, than to do and believe and embrace.

Welcome to the jungle, "let's be careful out there."


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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/5/2012 5:02:36 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

There is probably no way to answer this while being politically correct but I'll take a stab.

Feminization is done for several reasons. One is humiliation. Note that there are also men who get off on being dressed as women (crossdressers) and those who are legitimately transgender who dress as women because they feel more comfortable presenting as female than as male.

Needless to say, many Dominas feel that it is insulting to them to consider it humiliating to feminize.

I haven't heard of anyone masculinizing a woman (aside from a ridiculous scene in 9-1/2 Weeks). I've know women who masculinized themselves as butches. That was a gender issue in that they felt more comfortable presenting as such and was not done for humiliation.

I don't actually think it's a case of "feminine = inferior" as much as it is of taking away masculinity when feminizing. Note that transgenders don't feminize to take away masculinity as much as to add femininity.

This opinion is that of DarkSteven, and collarme and its other posters do not necessarily endorse it in full or in part.


That pretty much said it all.

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/8/2012 4:58:30 AM   
iwearpanties


Posts: 509
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Status: offline 		Hello all not much more i can say or add ... As a male submissve whos into things that you have been posting and writing about here . Its great too see the OP wasnt flamed or beat down as it some times has happend with a thread's on cding , humilitaion.. forced femmeing ,

its intresting too see the diffrent post and comments made on this suject kinda made me want to ask do or have any of you been with others ...but now after rereading what i wrote and thinkng back too the many posts i am reminded that a few of the poster that are female here did say they did or had but wasnt for them

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/8/2012 5:07:29 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Its a way of becoming a sexual creature totally different to one you feel comfortable with.
for some...

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/8/2012 5:44:12 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Its a way of becoming a sexual creature totally different to one you feel comfortable with.
for some...


Discomfort is key, Lucy. It need not be limited to gender identity as was suggested by the OP and taken up in later responses. Any public discomfort/humiliation would be an overt gesture of submission if performed in response to the Superior's demand . . . whatever the motivations of the Superior. It would be the ultimate surrender, I think. The true admission of one's acceptance of its place in the relationship and of its own true nature. Beyond play at private parties and clubs, where it is oh so easy and safe. A 'coming out' fraught with fear and trembling. Something along the lines suggested by OttersSwim but in a variety of ways. Not sure I would have the courage to a full blown outing, although I have come pretty close. Which brings me back to the OP: Is it easier for a female sub than a male sub to make such an uncomfortable public demonstration of obedience? Are men more inhibited and constrained by the masculine role demanded by culture?

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RE: Why is it degrading/humiliating to feminize a man? - 7/8/2012 6:06:07 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Some excellent input from WestBaySlave (you're not just a pretty face!), cloudboy, and (of course) Otter.

This has been a fantastic discussion!!

I, too, am pleased that this thread has remained highly informative with no flaming or snide remarks toward those in our subculture who are poorly understood.



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