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RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:26:51 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's only too sad that Trayvon Martin lost that fight for his life.



Agreed, it's a tragedy; one avoidable if Trayvon hadn't assaulted George.


Asswipe.  Why have the trial then, if it is cut and dried in the State's mind?

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RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:28:23 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		oh what a wonderful world we live in when someone arms himself then goes after a kid, and uses self defence as his argument when he is "forced" to shoot him.
Fuck this is pathetic and sickening.

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(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:28:56 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's only too sad that Trayvon Martin lost that fight for his life.



Agreed, it's a tragedy; one avoidable if Trayvon hadn't assaulted George.


ASSAULT? That sounds like a criminal charge.

Apparently Trayvon Martin isn't presumed innocent until proven guilty, as you seem to insist for George Zimmerman.

You'll PRESUME Trayvon Martin is guilty of assault, WHY?

Is that because he's a black kid? It's because Martin's black, right? That makes it easier for you to suspend "Innocent until proven guilty" and presume he's guilty of the crime of assault.

So, help me understand this hypocritical stance of yours. Is it because Trayvon Martin is black, or is there some other reason you're willing to lynch him?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:38:54 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

ASSAULT? That sounds like a criminal charge.

Apparently Trayvon Martin isn't presumed innocent until proven guilty, as you seem to insist for George Zimmerman.?


You might have noticed we're on a forum, and not in a court of law, and Martin is not on trial, yes?

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:39:03 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/782.04

And here is what he is being charged with, which is what the state is charged with (the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt, some portion of that statute  (2)). 

They don't need no stinkin' facts anymore than Zimmerman does, they only have to persuade 12 reasonable men that he evinced a depraved mind. 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/5/2012 12:41:43 PM >

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:40:00 PM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

Ahh, but you see, Tayvon was within site of his home. The physical altercation took place within view of Trayvon's front door.



The altercation took place 150' away from George's truck, within line of sight of it even, at the spot George lost him, at least a couple minutes after George lost him.

That would have required Trayvon to have come back to that spot from wherever it was he went.



You can listen to the whole clip if you want to, but aside from the debate and analysis of the crime, it states right in the beginning how close Trayvon was to his home.


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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:41:01 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

oh what a wonderful world we live in when someone arms himself then goes after a kid, and uses self defence as his argument when he is "forced" to shoot him.
Fuck this is pathetic and sickening.


If George Zimmerman had his nose broken and his head banged against concrete and was unable to get away, as seen by an eyewitness, then yes, self defense is a valid argument.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:42:45 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00


You can listen to the whole clip if you want to, but aside from the debate and analysis of the crime, it states right in the beginning how close Trayvon was to his home.



A little over 420 feet from Trayvon's home. 150 feet from George's truck.

According to W11/20 who heard the fight begin.

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:43:32 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		valid arguments will not necessarily translate to innocence.

did he evince a depraved mind in the opinion of 12 reasonable men. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:44:11 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

valid arguments will not necessarily translate to innocence.

did he evince a depraved mind in the opinion of 12 reasonable men. 


They'll have to nullify self defense before the issue of depraved mind becomes considered.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:48:20 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

FR:
Now why is there an additional Zimmerman thread here?
Have the other mods dragged Gamma out and shot her through the head or something?
(or Delta: whichever)


To the best of my knowledge, this is the only George Zimmerman thread.

It seems to be. The "All Things Zimmerman" thread into which all of the others you'd started were collated by a control freak no longer appears to be there...

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(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:48:25 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Prove it.  If they prove depraved mind to the juries satisfaction (since there is in the self defense law a statement 'even if evincing a depraved mind....' thats not an out)

depraved mind, what does that mean?  different here than a courtroom.....lotsa swinging dick room there.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:57:00 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

ASSAULT? That sounds like a criminal charge.

Apparently Trayvon Martin isn't presumed innocent until proven guilty, as you seem to insist for George Zimmerman.?


You might have noticed we're on a forum, and not in a court of law, and Martin is not on trial, yes?


But the principle doesn't change. You're willing to give Zimmerman the presumption of innocence, but at the expense of the presumption of innocence due Trayvon Martin. You CANNOT assert that George Zimmerman acted in self defense UNLESS Trayvon Martin did something to defend against, to-wit, as you've charged, "Assault".

So, you consider Trayvon Martin to be guilty of assault, so that you can consider George Zimmerman innocent of murder.

Now, I know you'd LIKE TO have it otherwise, and you're going to make some vague and pathetic attempt to claim this isn't the case, but that's how it is.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 12:59:36 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		You don't get the back of your head grazed from assault in any case: that's shouting. Actually laying hands on somebody is the next offence up...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 1:00:10 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

oh what a wonderful world we live in when someone arms himself then goes after a kid, and uses self defence as his argument when he is "forced" to shoot him.
Fuck this is pathetic and sickening.


If George Zimmerman had his nose broken and his head banged against concrete and was unable to get away, as seen by an eyewitness, then yes, self defense is a valid argument.


But Zimmerman sustained those injuries due to his own malfesance. He disobeyed his training. He disobeyed the police dispatcher. He approached Martin, He made the threatening moves which prompted Trayvon Martin to defend his life, and in that failed defense inflict those trivial injuries on Zimmerman.

I don't see how you get from there to self-defense without credible testimony from Zimmerman.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 1:01:49 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

valid arguments will not necessarily translate to innocence.

did he evince a depraved mind in the opinion of 12 reasonable men. 


They'll have to nullify self defense before the issue of depraved mind becomes considered.


Zimmerman will have to take the stand to claim self-defense. I still don't see that happening. He didn't show any balls when caught defrauding the court, his attorney and preparing to flee, did he? Nope. And they way he set up his wife, and left her to hang? Total coward. So when it comes to him taking the stand, swearing under oath, and being open to cross examination?

I still don't see it happening.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 1:03:11 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Prove it.  If they prove depraved mind to the juries satisfaction (since there is in the self defense law a statement 'even if evincing a depraved mind....' thats not an out)

depraved mind, what does that mean?  different here than a courtroom.....lotsa swinging dick room there.


In the courtroom it's going to play like this.

Zimmerman was TRAINED to avoid confrontation.

Zimmerman was TOLD to avoid confrontation.

Zimmerman confronted, and murdered Trayvon Martin.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 1:13:56 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


But the principle doesn't change. You're willing to give Zimmerman the presumption of innocence, but at the expense of the presumption of innocence due Trayvon Martin. You CANNOT assert that George Zimmerman acted in self defense UNLESS Trayvon Martin did something to defend against, to-wit, as you've charged, "Assault".



If Trayvon had survived the gunshot, and been arrested for assault and battery based on what he did to George, he'd be entitled to the same presumption of innocence George has, and would have the opportunity to explain why he broke George's nose and bashed his head against the ground, just like George is now having to explain why he shot Trayvon. It's simple really, there's no need for you to muddy it up.

You're arguing a strawman here.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 1:15:25 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


Zimmerman will have to take the stand to claim self-defense.



No, the defendant never has to take the stand, and I've already quoted case law that shows that self defense can be raised by cross examination of the state's witnesses or direct examination of other witnesses.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/5/2012 1:48:32 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Trayvon Martin's girlfriend says she heard Zimmerman approach.

Zimmerman ADMITS making a threatening motion, as if to draw a weapon.

You don't get to claim self-defense after you come up to someone and grab for a weapon, do you?

Of course, Zimmerman would have to testify to his version of events under oath, and open to cross examination. I just don't see that happening, but he's welcome to try.



True but since he was reaching for a cell phone he does.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 180
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