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Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 8:28:22 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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Is there a huge difference between male and female s-types?

What exactly are the differences?

Should a dominant "tailor" their style based on the sub's gender?

In my mind, there is quite a difference between male and female s-types. As a general rule, female s-types are looking to get their emotional needs met, while their male counterparts are looking to get their sexual needs met.

Male s-types tend toward being cock-centric (thus the term fetish delivery device) and think that b/c they offer their body in a sexual sense to a female, that is all the service they need to provide.

Females on the other hand tend to be more naturally service oriented (at least the one's I've met). Their submission appears to permeate into more aspects of their interaction with their dominant.

Males are quick to talk about kinky needs, limits, fantasies, etc, while females tend to hold that back. Females will discuss emotional aspects and trust and security needs up front, while many males (most especially the inexperienced ones) don't consider the need to discuss these things.

I understand I am making huge generalizations here. Although I know that all s-types can't be tossed into a particular slot just b/c of their gender, I do think gender plays a significant factor in behavior that should be taken into account.

So yes, I think it's a very good idea for a dominant to tailor their approach based on the gender.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 8:33:31 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
while their male counterparts are looking to get their sexual needs met.

I, of course, can't speak intelligently to either male or female s-types. This statement, however, strikes me as suspicious only because it aligns with the [incorrect] cultural male stereotypes. But I could certainly see that in a kink grouping, then the value of sex would be elevated.

By the way, I often say I'd never go shopping for a 3rd in the BDSM pool. The reason is I don't think I could satisfy the female's sexuality not her emotional needs.

In my old age, I've pretty much decided that the cultural stereotypes are about 5% reality and 95% cut from whole cloth so things which align with them are automatically suspicious.

Insofar as tailoring approaches, I don't really know what to say to that. I never quite know what "dominant" means. But honestly, the thing that I do which I call dominance requires a great deal of empathy so every single approach is uniquely tailored to that individual and situation.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 8:45:04 AM

pyschosubmission

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quote:

Male s-types tend toward being cock-centric (thus the term fetish delivery device) and think that b/c they offer their body in a sexual sense to a female, that is all the service they need to provide.

Females on the other hand tend to be more naturally service oriented (at least the one's I've met). Their submission appears to permeate into more aspects of their interaction with their dominant.

Where I can see where you are coming from in relation to the fellow members of my gender, I have always found (both in vanilla relationships and kink) that anything sexual without emotional connection is meaningless. In fact I would go further than that, and say it is actively unpleasant, a lot of that has to do with my own spiritual view towards sex however.

To the calculating, numerical and frankly heartless part of my mind D/s is simply a model that can be applied to relationships. The relationship then being either sexual or not.
To the more spiritual side is a wonderfully magical experience that is as intangible as love. Guess which side I prefer? :P

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 8:45:52 AM

LadyHibiscus

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~cackling~ Oh, Miss Chatte! You have brought the funny!

I know a lot of female submissives. I know very very very few male submissives. Very few. I know many many many kinky men.

I don't 'tailor' my dominance in terms of expectations, but just as I will tweak my management style, I will adjust for the person. That is a function of personality, not gender, and if the person doesn't match my style by a LOT, they need to be with someone else. I expect obedience. The desire to please, which to me is a key element in submission, has to be internally motivated.

More later. I feel snark coming on!

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 8:52:27 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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Well sure of course you should tailor according to the individual, but I am attempting to discuss what part gender plays in submission.

And it's not an easy concept to get a handle on, precisely b/c people just don't fit into such nice neat labels. Of course not all male s-types think it's all about them and their dick, and not all fem s-types think it's never about them and their pussy.

But having this sort of discussion w/o using generalizations is like trying to nail jelly to the wall. So why am I trying to do it?

Perhaps b/c I see both dominants and s-types approach their counterpart based on their own (often) gender based needs and wants and perceptions, and then be surprised when they are not particularly successful.

For instance, if a male dominant approaches a female for the main purpose of getting his sexual needs met, he is very liable to turn that female off before he even gets to first base (so to speak).

The number of male s-types who approach female dominants in a very cock-centric manner is quite obvious from just a quick perusal of their threads.

So I think it might be worth while to hear other's thoughts on the subject.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 9:01:20 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

~cackling~ Oh, Miss Chatte! You have brought the funny!

I know a lot of female submissives. I know very very very few male submissives. Very few. I know many many many kinky men.

I don't 'tailor' my dominance in terms of expectations, but just as I will tweak my management style, I will adjust for the person. That is a function of personality, not gender, and if the person doesn't match my style by a LOT, they need to be with someone else. I expect obedience. The desire to please, which to me is a key element in submission, has to be internally motivated.

More later. I feel snark coming on!

More like kinky men who want to *play* submissive while they get their kink on for the duration of time that suits them.

Yes, I know tons of those.

I think many of these men *want* to be submissive, and may even have a strong need to be. But they can't seem to jump that hurdle from it being all about them to being all about someone else. Which means they don't do well when obedience and non sexual service is required.

Is it a trust thing? An ego thing? I'm not sure I can answer that.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 9:02:24 AM

LadyHibiscus

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No, I don't change for gender. I am the same dominant for any gender that I am dealing with. Because I have the same expectations for anyone who is serving me. This seems to be a binary discussion, so I'm going to go with that.

I very rarely have sexual relationships with my submissives/playmates. THEY get all the orgasms they can handle, but they don't get intercourse with me. Or any of that Other Stuff. Affection, snorgles, bewbie squishes, sure. I am always touching, caressing, grabbing.

Women are good with that...men are often fine with it, too, as long as they get their orgasms!

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 9:11:01 AM

pyschosubmission

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quote:

Is it a trust thing? An ego thing? I'm not sure I can answer that

I'd like to think it is an ego thing, a residual complex carried on from high school. I can only speak from my experience here but certainly between 12-16 enforced social groupings like a school year, could be likened to that of a pack mentality. Where any weakness was pounced upon and shredded to pieces, ultimately making everyone pretend to be someone they are not because they all think everyone else is like that.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 9:19:33 AM

Moonlightmaddnes

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I thought men in general were looking to get their sexual needs met.

Seriously though yes I agree with the OP.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 9:33:15 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
And it's not an easy concept to get a handle on, precisely b/c people just don't fit into such nice neat labels. Of course not all male s-types think it's all about them and their dick, and not all fem s-types think it's never about them and their pussy. But having this sort of discussion w/o using generalizations is like trying to nail jelly to the wall. So why am I trying to do it?

Obviously, any discussion on "genders" is going to involve sweeping generalizations which will only be accurate in the generic, not the specific. I'm questioning the stereotype itself -- at least for the larger population of males/females. As I noted, what happens in the subset of a kink community might well be terribly skewed from that. I'm fairly confident at this point that the general stereotypes are wildly inaccurate hence I automatically mistrust anything which seems well aligned with them. But when you put sex front and center as a kink community does, I'm guessing there may perhaps be some selection bias as noted in my own response. As a guy who does not fit those stereotypes, I would not shop in this market.

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 9:46:37 AM

xssve

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I agree men are a bit more cock centric, for sure - it's actually a huge part of male identity, and we're expected to wear it on our sleeves, let it all hang out so to speak, all the bitching about cock shots notwithstanding, it's pretty much the first thing a woman goes for when she trying to put you in your place ("you must have a small cock", etc.). And, there's the unconscious knowledge that every hard on might be your, a fear the media feeds on, i.e., you really don't know if it's gonna get hard till it does, so we tend to gravitate towards anything that make it hard, because that's reassuring.

Women don't really have these sort of performance anxieties, they can fuck a football team and read a book at the same time so there is a little more room to focus on emotional needs - at the same time, while male sexuality tends to be celebrated and promoted, female sexuality is downplayed if not actively punished, simply ignored at best "Big swinging dick" implies a certain respect, "big fat cunt" is decidedly an insult (unless like me you like big fat cunts) so the double standard there contributes more than a little bit to behaviors and expectations of the respective sexes, depending one which circles you travel in.

Overall, submissiveness is associated with the feminine, and I see a lot of male submissives advertising their femininity, and from a male perspective, we tend to associate femininity with a need for attention, "weakness" and submission is often a device for attracting attention, so there may be an underlying need on the part of all submissives male or female, for attention of some sort, which is an emotional need, it just happens to migrate down to the loin area more rapidly in men than it does in women on the average - i.e, once we've been noticed, we're ready for action and the next logical step is to wave our dicks around.

Making any progress here?

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 10:03:06 AM

OttersSwim

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And here, the "girlie-boy" submissive comes in breaking all the rules and fucking everything up.

Emotional connection - YES PLEASE!

Cock centered - NOT SO MUCH

Service oriented - YEPER

I agree that "gender-orientation" does factor and should be something that is considered when two people get together for kinky relations of any kind.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 10:07:14 AM

xssve

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There are other considerations when it comes to genitalia and behavior, as there is no way to visually assess the virtues of a given vagina from a distance, whereas with the male, what you see is what you get, so women are much less genitally competitive than men, they don't generally go around measuring their cootchies and bragging about it, they compete more in term of those other services - people say: "she's a good wife, mother housekeeper", etc, not: "her pussy's so tight it whistles", or some shit like that - body issues do come into play of course, how big your ass is or tits or whatever but it's all about "secondary" sexual characteristics, whereas a guy can look like Michelangelo's David, but if he's hung like David, that's what hes gonna be known for, and there's gonna be a lot of disappointed comments from the distaff.

On the flip side, there are both men and women who get attention through exhibitionism, and I think that is a slightly different thing, having less to do with advertising their reproductive availability and a little more about just getting that whole sexualized, but essentially non-physical interaction going. I believe it's a whole different dynamic, although it may involve physical interaction as well - it's more of public ritual, performance art, rather than a mating ritual, and I don't think any other animal does that - perform for the sake of entertainment value alone.

Bit of a digression but I don't want to draw too many generalities.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 11:05:20 AM

WestBaySlave

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Going on this section:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Males are quick to talk about kinky needs, limits, fantasies, etc, while females tend to hold that back. Females will discuss emotional aspects and trust and security needs up front, while many males (most especially the inexperienced ones) don't consider the need to discuss these things.

I guess I'm a woman.

To answer the general question, I'd say that relationships need to be tailored to the people involved, on an individual basis. Someone who writes me and focuses on kinky needs and fantasies will likely start off on the wrong foot with me, as for me, compatible personality and relationship goals take precedent, and exclusive focus on the BDSM category tends to signal someone seeking a kinky hook-up.

There are differences between men and women, but the risk of generalization is so large that one risks thinking in terms of stereotypes in the vein of pink for girls, blue for boys. I think it's better taking each person as they are. What's important is not projecting ones own values and assumption on those you meet or assuming they share your outlook.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 11:06:34 AM

LaTigresse

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My experience has been similar to what LadyH said....

I know a lot of female submissives. I know very very very few male submissives. Very few. I know many many many kinky men.

Just peruse the forums. It will tell a person everything they need to know on the topic.

I don't see it as a positive or negative persay, but I do think an awful lot of people are lying to themselves. It rings more weal and twue to say they are submissive or slave. Even if the only thing they are really and truely submissive or slave to, is their kinky desires. I know for a fact it is not limited to men but I think it is more common.

Based on my experiences, most vanilla men are in fact more submissive to their partners than 'submissive/slave men. I pretty much scored in that department.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 11:15:16 AM

JhonP

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quote:

I think many of these men *want* to be submissive, and may even have a strong need to be. But they can't seem to jump that hurdle from it being all about them to being all about someone else. Which means they don't do well when obedience and non sexual service is required.

I suspect I should not comment on this topic as I can only speak for the person I truly know, myself. However, I do not believe submission is about jumping hurdles but more about what dominance means to each person, it’s not unilateral.

My brother is, for lack of a better way of saying, a sissy cuckold, his submission is centered on her form of dominance and his form of submitting and that doesn’t remotely suggest the terms or conditions under which I would submit. In her eyes I am not submissive, obviously I would not jump those hurdle but that does not make me incapable of commitment, not at all.
It simply says what they do does not define dominance or submission for me. Unfortunately many dominants are convinced dominance is a one way street and after many lonely years that road is cluttered with wrecks.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 11:21:55 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JhonP

quote:

I think many of these men *want* to be submissive, and may even have a strong need to be. But they can't seem to jump that hurdle from it being all about them to being all about someone else. Which means they don't do well when obedience and non sexual service is required.

I suspect I should not comment on this topic as I can only speak for the person I truly know, myself. However, I do not believe submission is about jumping hurdles but more about what dominance means to each person, it’s not unilateral.

My brother is, for lack of a better way of saying, a sissy cuckold, his submission is centered on her form of dominance and his form of submitting and that doesn’t remotely suggest the terms or conditions under which I would submit. In her eyes I am not submissive, obviously I would not jump those hurdle but that does not make me incapable of commitment, not at all.
It simply says what they do does not define dominance or submission for me. Unfortunately many dominants are convinced dominance is a one way street and after many lonely years that road is cluttered with wrecks.

Actually.........I think that dominance and submission are pretty fucking easy to define.

The problem lies in people trying to twist and redefine those words, and others like them, to somehow fit their own wants and desires.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 11:34:59 AM

LadyHibiscus

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I am an adaptible person, but there are things about myself that I am not going to change. I am not someone that wants someone kneeling all the time, saying 'yes, Mistress', and I am very rarely dressed in kink finery. I am a very demanding person, with high expectations, but I am not interested in compromising my essential self simply for the sake of snaring his 'submission'. I am not going to be all shinyperfectgoddess because someone thinks that's what a dominant looks like.

When it comes to playing, I let go of all the d/s trappings. My playmates are kinky men and we amuse ourselves by sharing kink. One of my playmates is genuinely submissive, but that's not how we relate to each other. I've found that I am having a lot less disappointment than my friends who are actively looking for submissive men.

My submissive female friends are submissive all the time. Their service is not dependent on their arousal. Now that does NOT mean that they aren't hot for who they're serving, just that they don't need to be wet to follow orders, and they don't stop once they have an orgasm. The men I know that are submissive are the same.

Neatly labelled boxes are handy, it helps us choose what we want, but there's so much false prestige attached to bdsm labels nowadays... you can't just be a top, you have to be a master, and of course a slave is soooo much better than a mere submissive! As LaT says, people are lying to themselves for the sake of glamour. No one walks right in to a d/s relationship with all the boxes checked. It takes time to get it right, even when both parties are experienced.

(And of course, the limited options on the other side do NOT help!)

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 11:37:33 AM

LadyHibiscus

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Re the 'sissy' and 'femininine' meme... in real life that's a very small percentage of femdom relationships. Lots of cd kinksters are searching for playmates, most women are not interested in sharing their makeup.

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RE: Let's discuss what part gender plays in submission - 7/13/2012 11:42:31 AM

SylvereApLeanan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

~cackling~ Oh, Miss Chatte! You have brought the funny!

This.

I know a lot of kinky people. I know very few submissives of either gender. Of the submissives I know, there isn't a lot of difference between male/female/genderqueer/androgyne. There's no need to tailor by gender (or lack thereof); I tailor by individual.

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