RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (Full Version)

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RemoteUser -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/19/2012 10:08:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

I still hold the same opinion. Labels are inevitable, some fit, some don't. If it does, go with it, it doesn't cause any harm.


It can though when two people into a relationship can't come to a clear agreement on the definitions. One usually builds up a fantasy in their head of a sub/slave/dom/etc...even though the other continues to say "that's not me and my definition". Then the person comes back and says "you're not a dom/sub/slave!!!" And then the relationship ends because the fantasy ends.

Unfortunately this happens more often than not from my experience.



I meant it in the context that the person who proffers the label also defines it appropriately. True, "Dom" can mean a lot of different things, so can "sub" or "slave".

The issue isn't the label, it's the communication that strengthens or undermines the understanding of the meaning behind the label. If the communication sucks, the rest tends to fall apart all on its own, labels or no.




LadyPact -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/19/2012 10:19:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

*hands Lp some vanilla ice cream and some fuzzy socks*

I think people label themselves in the hopes of belonging. I think they are afraid that if they don't find a place to belong within a group that it means they don't belong anywhere. Personally I have never really cared for the labels that go along with this "lifestyle" or any other. The only thing I have ever wanted to be is myself and I don't see why others don't want to be themselves as well. I will just continue to believe people do almost everything out of fear of something that most likely isn't real to begin with.

How did you know? I really am a sucker for ice cream.

When I get back to the lower 48, you and I are going to Baskin Robbins.





NuevaVida -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/19/2012 10:24:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Just be yourself? Most people don't have a clue who or what they are, they live by society's idea of what they should be.

Being yourself requires work in terms of self reflection. It requires going into the darkness and being very unsure of your step until you find a path that seems to suit you. It requires picking many paths that might prove false, or appear to meander when you just want to get the job done.

The modern human being is not given to a great deal of self reflection. Which is why now that being kinky is the new trendy thing, so many have decided they are dom or sub w/o having a jack asses' idea of what that is.

It takes a different kind of person to spend the actual time to self reflect, to explore, to allow themselves to meander down the path with no preconceived notion of where they are going and when they will get there.







I completely relate to this, Chatte. Years ago I didnt have a clue who I was. I only knew I didn't think much of myself so I figured others didn't think much of me, either. That, coupled with being rather submissive and very co-dependent, had me trying to do or be whatever it took, to be accepted. So I found "BDSM" and M/s and I discovered some consensus of what a slave is and since I was already submissive with men in my life, I tried to be what I thought the definition of slave was. I let a label define me, which I do not recommend.

The result was finding myself so very far away from where I should have been, only I didn't know that until my life took a different path.

So it was through a LOT of hardship, therapy, experiences, experiments, travels, journeling, reading, talking, being coupled, being single, having a good job, having no job...and so on...that I did discover who I was. I had to look at all aspects of me and come to accept what they were, then discard what didn't work for me anymore and incorporate new philosophies that did.

So yeah, in the beginning I was probably one of those people who Lady Pact is talking about. The result of having no confidence and no real self identity was a lot of pain. The result of all that pain was to figure myself out so I could find happiness with who I really am. I realized I could very easily turn into a bitter, old, unhappy woman, and I did not want that for myself. I also changed my general statement of "What ELSE can go wrong?" to "I am open to the possibility of goodness." The latter worked out much better for me.

So yes, I learned who I am but until I learned who I am, the statement "Be yourself" did nothing for me. Because I was a lie - a lie to myself. I didn't know me, so I made me up and actually believed me for awhile. I've since done a lot of "pulse checks" to ensure I'm not making myself up anymore.

When I was single, I made the best of my life - with amazing friends, my amazing family, and yes, my amazing self lol. And I decided nothing but nothing was going to detract me from being "me" ever again. I wouldn't have a relationship with someone who did not accept the "me" I had become.

This is where I take issue with Jeff's statement that loving me for myself is lazy and narcissistic. He might think so, and if that works for him, well coolio. But for me? Well when I say "me" I mean the core of me - what makes me tick. What moves me and what drives me. Life philosophies. Spiritual beliefs. I'm not talking about habits or the way I might do X, Y or Z. I'm talking about what I spent blood, sweat and tears creating in myself. I might evolve as we go forward, but that's different than changing my core for someone else. The Mister happened to totally fall in love with who I am, and regularly encourages me to be that woman.

Running off into the sunset? Hardly. We still work at our happiness. We still fight off my old ghosts. Love is still conditional. But he loves my core, and if he didn't, I wouldn't have continued down this path with him, nor would he have bothered. I found happiness being single, so I didn't feel like I was missing anything. Anyway, we're going to walk toward that sunset. Together. Going off course now and again. Breaking down barriers in the way now and again. Flying joyfully now and again. Coming across anything your average loving relationship comes across. But we'll do so being our authentic and evolving selves. And we'll do so as long as we can both be happy and healthy as our authentic selves together. We both hope and believe that's going to be lifelong.




LadyPact -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/19/2012 10:32:01 PM)

For what it's worth, NV, I think you are probably the person that I've seen come the farthest way in My five years here. I know you already know that. I'm just reminding you.





NuevaVida -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/19/2012 11:07:17 PM)

Thank you, LP. I still slip and go to that dark place sometimes. So reminders are worth a lot, actually.





LadyPact -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/19/2012 11:09:01 PM)

My work here is done.





Englishcrumpet -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 3:35:47 AM)

i kindof flicked through quickly, so not sure if this has been said, but the 'being youreself' i think isnt just for the vanillas.  i think that sometimes people try so hard to 'fit' the labels that apply to them and lose track of who they are.

i think it does take time to finally come around full circle and realise that who you are is totally good and fine and if, by that it means, you dont fit any particular mold then thats fine too.

the problem is trying to squeeze youreself into a shape that 'fits' the criteria of what people are looking for - but IMO that isnt the way to go.  being youreself means that you may fit a smaller group of people, but at least youre focus is in the right place attracting the right people for you.

but i dont think its something that happens overnight and i agree with NV - it takes a certain amount of self navigation and exploration to finally be able to say 'this is me and im truely comfy in my skin'.





ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 3:46:20 AM)

Fantastic post. Thank you so much for the response; you said what I was thinking so much better than I did!




LaTigresse -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 4:18:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Just be yourself? Most people don't have a clue who or what they are, they live by society's idea of what they should be.

Being yourself requires work in terms of self reflection. It requires going into the darkness and being very unsure of your step until you find a path that seems to suit you. It requires picking many paths that might prove false, or appear to meander when you just want to get the job done.

The modern human being is not given to a great deal of self reflection. Which is why now that being kinky is the new trendy thing, so many have decided they are dom or sub w/o having a jack asses' idea of what that is.

It takes a different kind of person to spend the actual time to self reflect, to explore, to allow themselves to meander down the path with no preconceived notion of where they are going and when they will get there.







I completely relate to this, Chatte. Years ago I didnt have a clue who I was. I only knew I didn't think much of myself so I figured others didn't think much of me, either. That, coupled with being rather submissive and very co-dependent, had me trying to do or be whatever it took, to be accepted. So I found "BDSM" and M/s and I discovered some consensus of what a slave is and since I was already submissive with men in my life, I tried to be what I thought the definition of slave was. I let a label define me, which I do not recommend.

The result was finding myself so very far away from where I should have been, only I didn't know that until my life took a different path.

So it was through a LOT of hardship, therapy, experiences, experiments, travels, journeling, reading, talking, being coupled, being single, having a good job, having no job...and so on...that I did discover who I was. I had to look at all aspects of me and come to accept what they were, then discard what didn't work for me anymore and incorporate new philosophies that did.

So yeah, in the beginning I was probably one of those people who Lady Pact is talking about. The result of having no confidence and no real self identity was a lot of pain. The result of all that pain was to figure myself out so I could find happiness with who I really am. I realized I could very easily turn into a bitter, old, unhappy woman, and I did not want that for myself. I also changed my general statement of "What ELSE can go wrong?" to "I am open to the possibility of goodness." The latter worked out much better for me.

So yes, I learned who I am but until I learned who I am, the statement "Be yourself" did nothing for me. Because I was a lie - a lie to myself. I didn't know me, so I made me up and actually believed me for awhile. I've since done a lot of "pulse checks" to ensure I'm not making myself up anymore.

When I was single, I made the best of my life - with amazing friends, my amazing family, and yes, my amazing self lol. And I decided nothing but nothing was going to detract me from being "me" ever again. I wouldn't have a relationship with someone who did not accept the "me" I had become.

This is where I take issue with Jeff's statement that loving me for myself is lazy and narcissistic. He might think so, and if that works for him, well coolio. But for me? Well when I say "me" I mean the core of me - what makes me tick. What moves me and what drives me. Life philosophies. Spiritual beliefs. I'm not talking about habits or the way I might do X, Y or Z. I'm talking about what I spent blood, sweat and tears creating in myself. I might evolve as we go forward, but that's different than changing my core for someone else. The Mister happened to totally fall in love with who I am, and regularly encourages me to be that woman.

Running off into the sunset? Hardly. We still work at our happiness. We still fight off my old ghosts. Love is still conditional. But he loves my core, and if he didn't, I wouldn't have continued down this path with him, nor would he have bothered. I found happiness being single, so I didn't feel like I was missing anything. Anyway, we're going to walk toward that sunset. Together. Going off course now and again. Breaking down barriers in the way now and again. Flying joyfully now and again. Coming across anything your average loving relationship comes across. But we'll do so being our authentic and evolving selves. And we'll do so as long as we can both be happy and healthy as our authentic selves together. We both hope and believe that's going to be lifelong.


You da bomb ba-bay!




xssve -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 6:45:24 AM)

Probably because of label nuts that have to have to put a name on everything, think? [8|]




littlewonder -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 6:53:04 AM)

I personally think labels have a place here. Like I said earlier, a lot of us use labels to identify ourselves and think that everyone else knows who and what we are because collarme says so.

The problem is, no one communicates to anyone else what those terms actually mean to someone else when they are talking to them and if they do, someone accuses the other of not being "real" because well.....everyone says "labels don't mean anything and are useless and it can mean whatever you want it to mean". So we just throw words around and everyone takes them and gives it their own twist and definition.

Without any clear consensus, it's just useless around here to use them as much as I actually like labels in life. It makes things easier for me. If I go to the grocery store and I want a bag of carrots, I don't want one place giving me these round red things (tomatoes) and telling me they are carrots. lol




LaTigresse -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 6:55:09 AM)

Ah yes, but do you want regular carrots or baby carrots? Organically grown carrots, name brand carrots, or generic carrots. Canned, frozen or fresh? Orange, yellow, white or red?




littlewonder -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 6:57:56 AM)

Ok, now you're just going all gourmet on me lol. I just want carrots dammit! Just plain ole pull it out of the ground carrots!

If I wanted to get all technical then I might wanna join LadyPact's leather community. [:D]

Sorry LadyPact, just joking lol.




LaTigresse -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 7:09:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Ok, now you're just going all gourmet on me lol. I just want carrots dammit! Just plain ole pull it out of the ground carrots!

If I wanted to get all technical then I might wanna join LadyPact's leather community. [:D]

Sorry LadyPact, just joking lol.


Ya I know............but it was to illustrate that simple labels really are not that simple. Therein lies the frustration for many.

I think that is why I nearly always ask, when approached by someone that says they are a slave and interested in me........"What does being a 'slave' mean to you?" followed by "How do you envision your ideal situation/relationship?"

I know that puts them on the spot and few ever want to answer for fear of blowing the whole thing, but if they can't answer.........they are already answering. I expect some sort of something that gives me an idea of how they see themselves and what the pictures in their head are. It doesn't have to be a clear list, it can be a rambling attempt at just conveying how they feel. But it has to be something more than "Whatever You wish."

I cannot take a regular old garden variety carrot and turn it into a fancy smancy gourmet red carrot.




xssve -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 7:11:09 AM)

Huh, "whatever you wish" works for me. [:D]




LaTigresse -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 7:16:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Huh, "whatever you wish" works for me. [:D]


On paper, it sounds fab. But then you get a slave that has some unrealistic (for me and my life) idea of what being a slave is, and it allllllllllll goes south pretty fast. They either have a false reality based upon their fantasies, or expectations based upon previous relationships that they are carrying over into their search for the next.




littlewonder -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 7:16:56 AM)

But without labeling that long dangly orange thing as a carrot you might end up with a bag of round red things called tomatoes.
Now if you want the baby type or organic type of carrot then you would qualify that in front of the word "carrot" to identify it even more correctly...but it's still a carrot with a defined, set and concise meaning that is the same to everyone. No matter where you go, people will know that orange thing is called a carrot because it's been passed down throughout our society of humans as an identifier so that we're not all confused.





LaTigresse -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 7:17:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

But without labeling that long dangly orange thing as a carrot you might end up with a bag of round red things called tomatoes.
Now if you want the baby type or organic type of carrot then you would qualify that in front of the word "carrot" to identify it even more correctly...but it's still a carrot with a defined, set and concise meaning that is the same to everyone. No matter where you go, people will know that orange thing is called a carrot because it's been passed down throughout our society of humans as an identifier so that we're not all confused.




Very true. Unfortunately human beings are a helluva lot more complex than carrots.

And I am not against labels for human beings. It is a great starting point. The problem lies in the mindset that the labels are also the entirety of individuals.




xssve -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 7:25:56 AM)

Fact is, you really never know how somebody is going to react to a give stimulus until they do - I always start with some light spanking and bondage type stuff and keep it very much confined to scene specific, giver her time to mull it over and give me some feed back before moving on to heavier shit - this is gonna get me labelled a "Top" for sure, in no small part due to the fact that I even give a shit what she likes or not - but it's basically prudence: you go straight into some humiliation talk or something, a chick could flat snap, and you never know what will trigger it, women, in my experience, are more emotionally volatile than men, or at least more prone to acting out on it.

I had one chick completely freak out on me when I set a roll of ordie tape on the bedside table, I don't even have plans for it, it was on the bed from doing something else - it got pretty hairy and I believe she even ended up being institutionalized (long story), so I learned to tell 'em what I have in mind before I do it, I don't know what the deal was to this day in that case, I was lucky she didn't call the cops instead of basically going damn near postal on me, and up to that point I was thinking I was gonna need a fire extinguisher to cool that bitch off.

In general, some people have very clear expectations they don't know how to express, others haven't a clue whether they like something or not till you throw it at 'em, and finding their limits can sometime be a delicate matter, you just never know somebody until you do.




littlewonder -> RE: Has this ever occurred to you? (7/20/2012 7:28:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

But without labeling that long dangly orange thing as a carrot you might end up with a bag of round red things called tomatoes.
Now if you want the baby type or organic type of carrot then you would qualify that in front of the word "carrot" to identify it even more correctly...but it's still a carrot with a defined, set and concise meaning that is the same to everyone. No matter where you go, people will know that orange thing is called a carrot because it's been passed down throughout our society of humans as an identifier so that we're not all confused.




Very true. Unfortunately human beings are a helluva lot more complex than carrots.

And I am not against labels for human beings. It is a great starting point. The problem lies in the mindset that the labels are also the entirety of individuals.


No I'm not saying labels are the entirety of a person but when you're trying to talk to someone, I think that's where the problems lie, especially these days when people are making up new definitions for words to suit their own preferences and it's like the Tower of Babel all over again.




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