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RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 6:24:49 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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You truly are a resident of the bizarro world, Rule.

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RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 6:26:15 PM   
FrostedFlake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Okeanos

quote:

That our current social infrastructural here in the US cannot come close to caring for the severely mentally ill *is* a political issue, IMO.
There is no social infrastructure that can reliably detect that any given person is about to flip, or prevent them from flipping. (Or, if there was one, it would be Orwellian beyond imagination.)

Since people can, and will, flip, the only defense that the society has against them is to reduce their ability to cause harm. Gun control is the #1 way of achieving this. If this guy did not have access to a variety of guns, a shitload of ammunition, and a smoke grenade, he would not have been nearly as effective, and we would perhaps be hearing about a couple of people dead and less than 10 injured. That would have hardly made the news. More likely, it would not have happened at all, since gun control eliminates gun culture, and such murderous ways of flipping are extremely rare outside of a gun culture.

This is why we have a bill of rights. In this example, Okeanos (Ocean) makes the classic error of presuming 'Society' is a person and has rights. Okeanos need not be blamed, it is a necessary prerequisite to the desired conclusion; 'Society' must make people helpless. In order to protect them. From themselves. Even though this will require deep, broad and permanent intrusion into peoples lives and the use of force and a new layer of crimes and penalties and new penitentiaries. Fact is, 'Society' is a Corporation and 'Society' is that thing a persons individual political rights keeps in check. We wrote it down so that we no longer have to explain it, or argue about it. We can now simply point at it.

It's #2.

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RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 6:27:22 PM   
LanceHughes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Okeanos

Among nations with gun control laws, Norway is quite lax, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway and due to the prevalence of legal firearms it can be argued that it does have a gun culture. The most important point I made was about gun culture. Gun culture = killings.

In any case, I did not try to imply that gun control would eliminate shootings; it would, however, certainly reduce them GREATLY. As others have already pointed out, just look at the numbers.

And then there's Switzerland where guns are REQUIRED!

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 6:52:32 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
And then there's Switzerland where guns are REQUIRED!


. . . . But so rarely used.

Oh, pfft. What do I really care? I'm never going to live in the USA.

I do understand that the culture regarding guns in the USA can't be compared to that of the UK or anywhere else. I get that.

But, just one thing, though, if only just one thing:

A thread that involves women and how much they love their guns. Please: no. No. I've tried, time and again, to convey the fact that a woman who talks about her guns has about the same effect on me as a woman who talks about how much she enjoys farting or squeezing her massive, pus-filled pimples. It's never had the slightest effect. They don't seem to credit how disgusting I find guns to be.

Seriously, could the women I fancy on these forums warn me before they start talking about their guns, so that I can avoid the threads in question? I mean, it's like: I *know* that women need to fart, and that they occasionally have to squeeze pussy boils. But I don't want to hear about it. That's all.

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RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 7:08:10 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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(My only 'gun' is an airsoft target pistol that shoots yellow plastic pellets...honest.)

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RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 7:09:24 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirlx
It could have just as easily been fertilizer and ammonia. Hell, there are multiple cases of massacre by machete.


Not really. A bloke carrying in sacks of fertiliser and ammonia would have been noticed somewhat more easily. It's harder for a machete-wielder to kill lots of people, and easier for such a killer to be stopped.


Actually, they were discussing this on the news, one in particular, in the Phillippines where the guy killed and injured just as many in a bar with a machete. If people are comfy and relaxed, the element of surprise will root people to the floor and make them easy targets.

And if you don't like fertilizer bombs, how about molotov cocktails.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I've been thinking about those people in Norway...and the school in Scotland that got shot up, and the McDonald's in San Diego.

I'm not sure what gun control would have done to help those victims.
Exactly. What he did was already illegal. Adding another law won't make it MORE illegal. And if he doesn't care about it being illegal, why would a second set of laws slow him down?

If someone is determined to do harm, they will find a way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Okeanos
The most important point I made was about gun culture. Gun culture = killings.
Not really. Canada has the same murder rate by percentage as the US. Yes, the number of gun deaths are lower than the US, but the rates of death by stabbing or beating are higher.

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RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 7:12:00 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

This is why we have a bill of rights. In this example, Okeanos (Ocean) makes the classic error of presuming 'Society' is a person and has rights. Okeanos need not be blamed, it is a necessary prerequisite to the desired conclusion; 'Society' must make people helpless. In order to protect them. From themselves. Even though this will require deep, broad and permanent intrusion into peoples lives and the use of force and a new layer of crimes and penalties and new penitentiaries. Fact is, 'Society' is a Corporation and 'Society' is that thing a persons individual political rights keeps in check. We wrote it down so that we no longer have to explain it, or argue about it. We can now simply point at it.

It's #2.


That was very well said.


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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 7:47:35 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
If people are comfy and relaxed, the element of surprise will root people to the floor and make them easy targets.


Yeah, but . . . to me, that's how people *should* be in cinemas. They shouldn't be tensed up with their fingers on their weapons. It goes to what the *hell* is the point of civilisation if that's the state of mind people have to be in when sitting in a cinema? OK, the Batman film has got rave reviews, but it's hardly high culture. Nonetheless, this matter, of a shooter in a cinema, keeps making me think of that line beloved of the Nazis, "when I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun." Jeez. Have those Nazis won that argument?


quote:

And if you don't like fertilizer bombs, how about molotov cocktails.....


They're both harder to kill people with than guns. My father, as a London copper during the seventies and eighties, had to face both. An offshoot of the IRA used fertiliser bomb in the Harrod's bombing of 1983, so they believe, but that took a carload of the stuff. (My father escaped that one by seconds; some of his colleagues didn't.)

Really, what's the point in this discussion? If the weapons available don't matter, then why bother to arm the militaries of the world with the most advanced of them? There wasn't any doubt, to me (and to many others), that the IRA would have killed far more people over the years if they'd had the required type and level of weaponry. It's incomprehensible to me that anyone could seriously put the argument that the restriction, or otherwise, of weapons makes no difference to the injuries and deaths that result from what these psychos set out to do.




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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 8:05:05 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Mike.. THIS
quote:

seem to lack the political will
really bothered me. Politics cannot regulate purely psychopathic behaviours. UNtil ( and IF) we ever know what this persons motives were, leave politics out of it. if for no other reason than the alleged political agenda furthers no purpose than to incite misplaced hatred.

The ONLY person(s) who should be held accountable for this atrocity is the person(s) who actually perpetrated it.

Sorry it bothered you,it was a fully intentioned statement,one in which I feel most strongly about.
But let us all keep going along holding firmly to a popular misconception of the second amendment,forever blinding us as a society to doing something about the plethora of gun violence atrocities that assail us at an alarming rate ....almost to the point where we just throw up our arms and lament that it is just the cause of "doing business" in the U.S.of A.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 8:06:07 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
the IRA would have killed far more people over the years if they'd had the required type and level of weaponry.

People who suffer from a lack of paranoia have such a blissful life! The IRA and the ETA worked for the same people as the British and Spanish governments did: two sides of the same coin, the one above board and the other below board, two hands on the same belly, trafficking in drugs and whatever else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
It's incomprehensible to me that anyone could seriously put the argument that the restriction, or otherwise, of weapons makes no difference to the injuries and deaths that result from what these psychos set out to do.

So you not only suffer from a lack of paranoia, but you also suffer from a disability to comprehend. At a guess I venture that both lacks are causally related.

I recommend, as a consequence of your lacks, that you ignore subjects such as these and that you instead focus on peon things.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 8:09:19 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Obviously another sociopath slipped through the cracks....

What "cracks"there isn't even a speed bump

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 8:12:13 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
the IRA would have killed far more people over the years if they'd had the required type and level of weaponry.

People who suffer from a lack of paranoia have such a blissful life! The IRA and the ETA worked for the same people as the British and Spanish governments did: two sides of the same coin, the one above board and the other below board, two hands on the same belly, trafficking in drugs and whatever else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
It's incomprehensible to me that anyone could seriously put the argument that the restriction, or otherwise, of weapons makes no difference to the injuries and deaths that result from what these psychos set out to do.

So you not only suffer from a lack of paranoia, but you also suffer from a disability to comprehend. At a guess I venture that both lacks are causally related.

I recommend, as a consequence of your lacks, that you ignore subjects such as these and that you instead focus on peon things.


I do apologise, Rule, but that post was so stupid and in so many ways that I have no idea how to respond to it. No offence meant. :-)


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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 8:12:46 PM   
TheHeretic


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FR

I just checked the showtimes for the movie at the plex down the road. They have cancelled the 10:30 showing.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 8:14:31 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

This will be a nightmare here, the perfect distraction from economic campaign issues!

I was quite impressed by the post that's just been made in P&R saying: "can we not politicise this, please?"
fat chance (particularly now that there's a thread on the subject in there), but a nice thought.

Its why I posted here and not over there. I want nothing to do with the politics of it, bah, sod that.
trivialising it for pot shots is yeah beneath even me.

I don't see it as trivializing it in the least.It's a tragedy,and I grieve and lament for the victims....I also lament the inevitable victims of the next such occurrence...and the one after that....then the one that will follow that.
See what I'm saying here.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 8:23:35 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Three shooting incidents in Colorodo, this one Columbine, and one at a church where a parishiner shot and killed the attacker as soon as he started shooting. Two gun free zones two massacres one armed citizen one dead shooter.

Yeah that's the answer ....turn our movie theaters into free fire zones ,where we squeeze as many armed citizens into an enclosed ,dark room and sit back and watch bedlam ensue.
This remedy makes far more sense that enacting some sensible national gun control policies...if this shit wasn't so tragic it would be funny,as it is all I can do is shake my head and pity the mind that embraces such utter bullshit idiocy.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 8:35:40 PM   
PeonForHer


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I think people should be able to buy grenades at the popcorn counter. End of problem.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 8:36:42 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Three shooting incidents in Colorodo, this one Columbine, and one at a church where a parishiner shot and killed the attacker as soon as he started shooting. Two gun free zones two massacres one armed citizen one dead shooter.

Yeah that's the answer ....turn our movie theaters into free fire zones ,where we squeeze as many armed citizens into an enclosed ,dark room and sit back and watch bedlam ensue.
This remedy makes far more sense that enacting some sensible national gun control policies...if this shit wasn't so tragic it would be funny,as it is all I can do is shake my head and pity the mind that embraces such utter bullshit idiocy.


I don't think having a dark theatre filled people, smoke and noise would be the answer. But, I also realize that gun control laws won't do anything to stop it either. What he did was illegal. Adding more laws won't make it more illegal. He already doesn't care about the law, so I fail to see how adding another law would have prevented him. After all, the explosives he booby trapped his apartment with are illegal. He still used them.


< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 7/20/2012 8:37:36 PM >


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RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 8:37:12 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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BRILLIANT! And if each passenger on an aircraft was issued a boxcutter, we could eliminate the TSA!



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RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 9:54:56 PM   
kalikshama


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Why the Gun Control Debate Doesn't Do Justice to Colorado Killings

Why must the tragic Colorado theater shootings stimulate a debate on more than mere gun control? Not simply because, or however remarkable the fact that, violent mass killings -- whether in Columbine, Virginia Tech or now Aurora -- tend to have little sustained influence or impact over public attitudes vis-à-vis gun control, but because the root cause of violence is much more multifaceted and complex than mere access to military-grade weaponry.

Yes, it is very easy to get an AK-47 in Colorado. In fact there are no limits on AK-47 ownership. There are no limits on handgun purchases per month. Additionally, there are no permits or licenses required for gun ownership in Colorado, the Attorney General has no authority to regulate guns, and general safety measures, like requirements on safety locks, are completely absent in Colorado.

The same goes for Tennessee too, the state whose license plate was on 24-year old James Holmes' car, which was parked in the Aurora theater lot while Holmes killed a dozen theatre-goers and critically injured another 50 people. The only thing going for Colorado on gun ownership is the background checks required at gun shows, a measure brought about by public pressure. But that's about it. This is the reality, despite the fact that a majority of America still favors stricter gun control laws.

But no, it is not just about gun access. In our work on the US Peace Index, an index that ranks US states and cities based on their level of violence using data on homicides, violent crime, incarceration rates, police per capita and access to small weapons, Colorado state ranks in the bottom half of the Index and no Colorado city ranks in our top 60 most peaceful cities in America. And Tennessee is the country's second most violent state for several years running.

What we find in our data, compiled from only highly credible sources (FBI, DOJ, CDC, etc.), is that violence is directly and strongly correlated with socio-economic data on education, health, poverty, inequality, basic services, labor participation and social capital. States that are more peaceful have higher education levels, higher health-insured rates, lower poverty and inequality, better access to basic services, higher labor participation rates, and higher rates of social capital (i.e. volunteerism, community involvement, perceived trust, group membership, etc.).

Either way, all this violence is costing our struggling economy billions of dollars. In the last year alone, violence in America cost our economy a whopping $460 billion. Colorado's share of that was nearly $7 billion. One homicide, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, can cost well over $1.3 million -- and that's just in medical, judicial and police costs. There is a much bigger cost to the economy. Consider that the 12 killed in Aurora will no longer be part of America's workforce, ever. That's a long-term cost that must be calculated as well when understanding the devastating impact of violence to America.

Then there are the less quantifiable measures like shame and guilt (see Harvard Medical School professor James Gilligan's work on Preventing Violence or UK economists Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett's work on Spirit Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger) that arise in highly unequal societies. America has the highest income inequality rates in the rich world. That correlates strongly with high rates of social-health problems, from homicide and violent crime to mental illness and drug addiction. We must acknowledge that basic human needs for meaning, connectedness, security, recognition and autonomy are real and worth addressing by policymakers. When they are threatened or unmet, conflict often arises and can, if aided by easy access to weapons, turn violent.

All of this is to say that when we are evaluating Colorado's impact on our society, beyond the deeply tragic and emotional costs, we must consider the comprehensive causes of this violence and the costs of this violence to our society. It is not just about guns. But guns do give voice to a much bigger issue that's not being addressed -- that of the socio-economic health of this country. Going forward, this is what the debate must be about.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: 12 killed, 50 wounded at screening of Batman movie - 7/20/2012 9:59:19 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Thanks, Kalik. An excellent article, and much more to the point.

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